commenting on others picture

[LeoLeo]

Ladies and Gents,

With all my respects possible,
I HATE YOU !!

Let me tell you why. I do care about my photography, and, I DO CARE about others photography. Helping others, help myself. Yes, I'm selfish, egocentric and name it whatever you want, but I really "love" myself (Narcis, here I come).

I don't intend to be rude, but I sense a lack of "cinique eye" in every critique that I saw. We are polite, VERY POLITE! Polite is good, keep a sense of good balance, and a balanced personality is good. Everything is fine.

How we can advance ?

I'm not telling about "100% critique" (even I am a big fan of this section, on picture per week/user), but when somebody said "I like it", at lest to said why. (Technique, composition, postprocessing, ....something)

I do see pictures posted here which have "wrong compositional rules" and people posting "beutiful, as usual", and no other comments. What the heck should I learn from this ?

I saw pictures with XX views and no comment. Some are wrong, from all point of view, some are different. What I didn't get is how the "reply" are made , based on what.
...........................................(MOD Edit - Text dentifying another member's work deleted)
ok, it is my envy who drive me in, but I still look for an explanation (road is comming from corner, picture is way unballnced, but beautiful as usual.....).

For those "idiots" like me, do as a big favor, and put more words when "You like this, as beautiful as usual"

Thanks in advance,
Leo
PS: This is NOT for admins. Even they are well known photographers or not, is not their obligation to do this. IS OURS, the rest of us. Of course, they can contribute as much as they can, but I don't feel myself force them to do this on daily basys.

[Geoff F]

Let's put it this way, Leo. If somebody says something like 'I
am not totally happy with this photo, please give some serious criticism for improvement' then they are asking for genuine comments.

But some people, I feel sure, are displaying their best attempts, often taken with 'sub standard' equipment so a bit of tact is required, particularly as many are relatively new to photography.

And where somebody asks 'Does this work' etc, then a simple reply like 'Yes I like it' can be sufficient unless other comments are particularly needed.

For me, a simple reply is better than just 'passing by on the other side of the street' without making any remark.

On the site which I used before CinC, criticism was extremely severe and anyone who ventured to make a comment was liable to be 'ripped apart' by others who didn't agree with those comments.

So the result was that so many potential contributors, myself included, just posted one photo or made one comment then quietly went away feeling shocked by the savagery of replies.

I have previously mentioned that on another site a contributor was reeling from such an attack and mentioned that they were only trying to help and felt hurt by the comments. The reply, from one of the more placid members, was that 'You need a thick skin to post here'.

Well that member, and myself, never used the site again.

And I notice a few previous members of that site have appeared here.

So we then come to the problem of who is qualified to make comments. Most of us have different opinions about what makes the perfect photograph. After all, it is a work of art so we all tend to have slightly different preferences.

For example, I strongly dislike photos which are 'forced' to conform to a rule of thirds when I would have cropped them differently; and I also don't like those very slow shutter speed shots of waterfalls or surf; and over processed HDR.

But for other people, those are the correct firm rules of photography.

So, I say 'let's all be relaxed about this site'. Make some comment if you wish, even 'I agree with the previous reply' when that simply said 'I like it' is a valid comment to me.

If a poster specifically requests critique then give it as honestly and diplomatically as possible but make sure that you don't (accidentally or deliberately) offend someone who has done their best. Otherwise, expect to see a drop in CinC membership.

Just a few personal thoughts.

[LeoLeo]

Thanks for reply Geoff,

I do agree with 90% of what you post above. BUT YOU POST !!, something, give me a clue, those small thingh that I may need.
"I do not like HDR, some others may step here, but I like/dislike composition, point of view, etc."

I conduct a "test" with some of my colleagues, amator photographers, like me,and I ask them to explain me in no more than 15 words why he/she shoot that picture. Speechless, honestly.Two maximum three pictures have a idea, the rest were "nice to have".
Don't know, forcing us to said what we like/ what we don't like might help or not, but will create a habbit, away of understanding, will force somehow to see at the picture, not to look at it.

Thanks for your comments,
Leo

[Donald]

It is interesting that we seem to be seeing some people expressing concern about the quality of criticism being offered on CiC.

I think the common thread amongst the couple of posts that I've seen is the suggestion that somehow criticism has to be critical. The idea that criticism can be framed in positive tones, based on the knowledge of what works in terms of the principles of adult learning, seems to be absent.

If some people think that critical appraisal has to be couched in the negative, in terms in telling people what is wrong as opposed to what is right, then they learned the art of criticism in a different place than me.

The other point is, of course, that maybe those who speak positively about an image actually think it's good and don't share the analysis suggested that it is 'wrong'. And of course, it's perfectly open to everyone to post up their constructive comment and criticism and not wait for others to do it for them.

[ktuli]

Remember - this is a forum... it is designed to produce a discussion. If someone provides less detail than you like, you are more than welcome to respond with a friendly 'What in particular did you like about this photo?' to prompt the additional data you'd like.

I do agree with Geoff that a lot of that responsibility lies with the original poster to make the request of exactly what kind of feedback they are looking for when they post.

I admittedly don't reply to as many photos as I would/should... it is just a side-effect of my schedule and time available. Sometimes I will just chime in with a 'This is awesome' or perhaps a 'This is good, but perhaps this small change'. Every once in a (rare) while, I manage a more meaty critique of a photo.

There was a thread some time back trying to show more full critiques, but I can't seem to locate it now.

- Bill

[Geoff F]

This new thread by Frank may prove useful.

How to Get Effective Feedback for your Posted Images

[Designer]

Leo; I don't always comment on photos. Some simply make no impression on me whatsoever, therefore I pass them by without comment. If I see one that I think I can help, then yes, I will comment. In the future, I will try to give your photos a more thorough examination.

[FrankMi]

Hi Leo. Unless I find an image that just blows my socks off, I tend to comment on just those where I feel I can help the poster with either positive feedback or constructive criticism and even then I usually I try to identify what was done right as well as what can be improved and how.

Even when I see something wrong, if I don't have a solution for the issue or someone else has already provided the correct answer I will rarely comment. Sometimes I see another reply and that triggers a constructive thought, I will offer a suggestion that I hadn't previously considered.

My goal in participating is more than just learning from others. I also want to make a positive contribution to the learning experience of anyone here that I feel I might be able to help increase the enjoyment of the learning process.

However, I also realize that some of the folks that post are looking more for the appreciation of their efforts and for those, a simple 'that's a beautiful image' is what really provides them with a sense of satisfaction and the desire to improve.

[rpcrowe]

Unless I have some positive criticism about an image, I tend no to reply. Positive criticism doesn't necessarily mean that I like the image but, that I have some suggestions which might (or might not) improve the image.

I do like the normal ways critique is offered on this site. Members don't try to rip each other apart but also, all images are not rubber stamped "This Is Great!"

However, there may be some members who have no more critique than, "nice image" or "I like it". This to me is fine also.

Critiquing critiques may or may not be beneficial to the site as a whole...

[Andrew1]

To me, critiques do not imply criticism but rather a detailed evaluation of what is being evaluated. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and in general that's what we're all after when submitting photos for that purpose. A problem is that some "Critic's" go a bit overboard in voicing their opinion and do so negatively. I usually think they are only being obnoxious to compensate for their own short-comings or trying to impress someone who is no longer listening. I prefer an analogy of movie critics. I've read movie reviews for many years and know which ones to pay attention to. Not because they know more than I do but because their tastes mirror my own in some genre's. If I was serious about getting feedback to a degree that I would make major changes to the way I produce photographs I would get a mentor I believed in. This is a forum for public opinion and nothing more. It can't be. There are far too many people from different backgrounds and life experiences offering constructive feedback they believe would help. Who should I to listen to? Even after 45 years of being in photography I certainly don't believe my opinion is any more worthy of attention than anyone else. Keep it light and polite and if you want more detail you can ask for it openly on the forum or through a private email. As for looking at threads without commenting I do it all the time. If it's not a subject I am interested in, the photo would have to be something special to make me stay, look at it and comment on. Pictures of cats are my personal bane but I do understand they stay still long enough to get a shot of.
I also believe photography "rules" are to be used only until you understand them well enough to know when and why you are breaking them. I agree with Richard. Getting too serious on how we must comment will not be a good move and be a detriment to this very nice site. It wouldn't work anyway.

[speedneeder]

I find the critique on here quite refreshing to other forums I have been on. Most of the detailed critique is meant to offer encouragement or ideas to improve, and this is often tailored to the poster's apparent skill level.
When I first posted a photo on here for critique a year and half ago, it was BAD. But, no one said, "DUDE, THIS SUCKS, YOU'RE PATHETIC, YOU NEED TO GO AWAY". Instead, I got feedback that gave me ideas to improve - and I think it has worked! I no longer think my photos suck
I do think that there is often too much hyperbole, but I prefer this to the trend of other forums like this I have been to. That is why I keep coming back to this one.

One more note:
Donald and Colin are tireless contributors and I could never express my respect and appreciation to them enough.

[enaiman]

I think Richard is right. I feel the same way; if I can't say anything good about a picture then I better walk away.
My opinion is: if I think I can give a suggestion for improvement then I will do it ... but only with something positive along.

Like: "I like that and that ... but I think that other thing could be improved" - I never give only negative feedback. I feel that I need to say something good too because who posted the image was proud of it and I don't want to sink his boat

Being nice goes a long way. Leo, I can think of several sayings in romanian along this line, so let's be nice and helpful

[gregj1763]

As a relative newcomer to this site and to photography, the problem I have is not feeling qualified enough to give sound critisism.
I like to compliment people on their photos when they appeal to me, but at this stage wouldn't offer any advice unless it was asked for. So for the moment You will still get a few great capture or lovely photo from me.
Hope this doesn't upset anyone. This is a great forum with good people
Cheers Greg

[thatguyfromvienna]

While the tutorials and articles on this site are a source of wisdom, what makes it so special for me is the extreme politeness everybody here displays. That's what really separates this forum from most others, not only photography forums.

[speedneeder]

As a relative newcomer to this site and to photography, the problem I have is not feeling qualified enough to give sound critisism.
I like to compliment people on their photos when they appeal to me, but at this stage wouldn't offer any advice unless it was asked for. So for the moment You will still get a few great capture or lovely photo from me.
Hope this doesn't upset anyone. This is a great forum with good people
Cheers Greg

Hi Greg,
You don't have to be an expert to comment - if you can say something like I like this photo because ... That's valuable feedback to me and I'm sure most others. You don't need technical expertise if you can say WHY you like something

[gregj1763]

Fair call Brian,
I might be brave and take the plunge next time.

[Carl in Louisiana]

Hi Greg,
You don't have to be an expert to comment - if you can say something like I like this photo because ... That's valuable feedback to me and I'm sure most others. You don't need technical expertise if you can say WHY you like something

I am in the same boat if not newer than Greg. I did not look at it quiet the way you put it but will start trying to post more often. But will leave the suggestions on what could have been done to those with the experience. I am still learning how to set the functions in my camera.

[jeeperman]

Hmmm, I just wrote about this very subject somewhere. I feeel for the most part we all do pretty well here, although I do wish that some of the folks whom leave only a positive statement would try their hand at a little observation. If not to critique...ask a question maybe. How did you capture that light?

The presented images can be tools for not only the poster to learn from through critique but fom others to learn from the poster. I understand being new can be scary, not wanting to say the wrong thing and upset someone or just be wrong. Which will likely not happen. Giving critique is not something I have always done and have found I learn quite a bit about my own images by critiquing others. We all know critique of our own is the real challenge.

It has always been a polite and enviting place and it should remain as such, but those of us whom either have the knowledge or having been here for a while should be the example if you see a needed change.

For those recieving critique, each of us come from somewhere different and our style of giving critique can vary. Have a thick skin and realize... here on this site if someone critiques your image sometime in a strictly business way....you are not being attacked. Nor do you have to take or agree with the critique, but think about what was said and why....and make your own choices as you are the final eye on your image.

I only mention this because for a while a I myself was somewhat put off by a certain individuals critique style and it was not until I realized it was not personal but the fast and efficient yet cold cut to the chase way they came across that I realized the help I had recieved. I watched it happen with others whom did not get it and got offended. That individual no longer posts any critiques and that is a shame.

[stardelta]

I am fairly new to this site having been very unhappy with a site I used prior to cic.
what i find fantastic about this forum is the warm reception I get from people. i can not thank the moderators and fellow members enough for their help so far.

I am still at that stage of saying great shot or nice capture, because i feel I am not at the level to offer technical assistance, however i will try and ask more questions about the shot I am commenting on.

but please please do not change the way this forum is , because like i said i left a previous forum for the way people treat each other. If it aint broke dont try to fix it.

[Black Pearl]

This is a common issue on many forums and one where I don't think there is an answer.

If a group of us were sitting in a pub with a few beers and handing pictures round the talk would be very different and the gains much higher. There would be arguments, finger pointing, real critical analysis, threats of buying the next round but also talk of how a person had been to the same place and tried this, talk of equipment and settings, back-slapping and more. It would be bl**dy brilliant in other words. The reason it would work is we could all see each other and our ability to 'read' others would be running full tilt so we would know when the advice was meant in fun or when it was genuinely critical and we would be able to deal with it in our normal ways.
It can never work on a forum as we can't see each other and therefore it is too easy to take offence, often at the slightest remark that if the situation was as described above would be taken onboard. This crops up on every forum and the net result is nothing changes. It could be that nothing needs to change but I rather believe it simply can't change.

I'm an active member on three photography forums (I admin one of them) and they are all the same. A member posts an image which they obviously think is good enough to show others and there are a couple of regular outcomes:

1. is that it is poor and if anyone said so the OP would either be upset as they thought it was good or they would take offence...because they thought it was good. Rarely do they take the criticism well even though just about everyone else who looks at the image feels the comments are valid. Several regulars will jump in and defend it in the hope of calming things down but I'll wager even they might think is a bit of a poor effort. Net gain - nothing.

2. it is excellent and you get a string of 'likes' which is nice for the OP but does little to further everyones photography. Rarely do you get any solid reasons why the image is good and why you think it works, things that can be taken onboard by others and worked into their own photography. Net gain - nothing.

3. there are no comments. This is the hardest as it may be that it is a good image but others don't feel it needs a 'like' or it may be that its a bad shot but no one is brave enough to say so. The OP will keep looking back and get upset because they think it has been either ignored, it isn't good enough or, if they are new, that they are not welcome. Net gain - nothing.



I don't have an answer to this, I wish I did as it would improve the site I help run but I think it simply boils down to the lack of personal contact between members. I do believe that the comments need to be more analytical whether that be in a positive or negative way. I do think that members need to 'man up' and take it on the chin when someone else says they don't like an image. No picture is so good that everyone is going to like it or believe it is correct in their own mind in the same way that no one is so good a photographer that they feel they are above criticism.