Mini Comp entries

[orlcam88]

I wanted to edit my comments before someone read it. Work pulled me away before I got a chance to review what I wrote.

I meant to say I wouldn't want an open opinion if I didn't ask for one. This is because it becomes a larger discussion with more than one opinion about the photo. which sometimes leads to confusion on what direction to take because of the different ideas. I may not be ready for that. But when I do, I'll ask for it.

[John Morton]

Thanks, Dave for moving this thread.

I figure that by the time somebody posts in a competition, he or she has enough confidence in the photograph to expect to win, or at least get a few votes. If somebody is so green that they don't even know enough to straighten the horizon, why on earth are they entering the photo in a competition? And if they are indeed so green that they simply don't know that they are not ready for a competition, why do they not strive to get some specific advice regarding their craft?

You may consider my comments to be "rude, condescending, and arrogant", but I assure you that is not the purpose in my mini-rant. I have offered many honest critiques that have helped photographers on another forum, but it is not usually done on here.

I enter mini competitions just for fun. Sometimes I enter with photos I do not expect to get many votes; like this one, proud winner of two votes in a black and white mini:



Also, I don't think that it is very straight, either. All it is, really, is a bit of my philosophic humor which some many have caught, and others might have missed. But I still enjoyed posting the image.

[Designer]

John Morton; had I seen your photograph, I would have voted for it. I think it is straight, BTW.

[Ati]

Jim, I have entered a fair amount of crap into the minis, and while obviously I love it when it gets some votes, I'm not too bothered when it doesn't. Usually I'd put it up because, figuratively speaking, I'd just put 500 shots of Khatmandu through PS that day, had come across one that I fancied for one reason or another, and had put it up pretty well as a way of saying 'Hello folks, This is me.'.
Last week I put up one of a deliberately overexposed composition in whites and blues. Nobody much liked it, but I still do.
If I'm wrong to be doing that, then please tell me, and I'll probably keep on doing it.
We're not all straining every nerve for a prize every day, and when I want to improve my photography, I'll do it elsewhere on CiC.
Another value of the minis, where I vote very regularly : when at the end of the vote I see that the picture I passionately liked and voted for has come a miserable 4th, I can walk away, shaking my head sadly at the folly of mankind. A lesson in philosophy.

[Designer]

Jim, I have entered a fair amount of crap into the minis, and while obviously I love it when it gets some votes, I'm not too bothered when it doesn't. Usually I'd put it up because, figuratively speaking, I'd just put 500 shots of Khatmandu through PS that day, had come across one that I fancied for one reason or another, and had put it up pretty well as a way of saying 'Hello folks, This is me.'.
Last week I put up one of a deliberately overexposed composition in whites and blues. Nobody much liked it, but I still do.
If I'm wrong to be doing that, then please tell me, and I'll probably keep on doing it.
We're not all straining every nerve for a prize every day, and when I want to improve my photography, I'll do it elsewhere on CiC.
Another value of the minis, where I vote very regularly : when at the end of the vote I see that the picture I passionately liked and voted for has come a miserable 4th, I can walk away, shaking my head sadly at the folly of mankind. A lesson in philosophy.

Thanks, Ati, for your response. The main reason for my original post was because I thought all the entrants in that particular mini had made some silly "mistakes" in their photographs, that I thought "why"? Why go the to trouble of posting an entry, when they haven't taken the time to correct some very basic errors.

[kdoc856]

I like the mini-comps as they are, and think they serve multiple purposes. It is a "safe" way to enter actively into this forum.

If any others are like me, it was intimidating early on to see the high qualilty of most of the images offered up for critique in the different thread categories. So I put up some offerings in the mini-comps, got some votes, began to feel like maybe I wasnt the worst or most novice photog in the forum, and felt more comfortable asking for input. I gradually came to really appreciate how gracious and genuine the vast majority of the comments are in hoping for and helping in the growth of fellow members.

Sometimes I've put up images that represented something new I'm trying, and I'm just curious to see how it strikes folks. If 55 votes are tallied in a minicomp, that could be as many as 55 opinions I've gained, even if it's just a thumbs up or thumbs down. We aren't going to get that many expressed opinions if we ask for feedback in the threads.

Certainly in the mini-comps we see some pretty basic mistakes that could be easily corrected. But I think of those not as a refusal to the time or interest to correct, but as an indication that that individual's photographic maturation just hasnt reach that stage just yet. That can come later. Better to just let folks take those first steps of involvement. They can solicit the feedback when they are ready.

[Designer]

O.K., kdoc856; (Kevin) When I see a FEW common errors or omissions, I can overlook them and move on, but when I see the whole competition thread in which apparently nobody has taken the time to put his best effort forward, then I begin to wonder why am I bothering with looking at this thread anyway? Why should I put out any effort to pick the best one, two, or three photos, when the original posters did not even take the time to straighten the photo before posting it?

Here, once again, I am trying to get my point across when I am vastly outnumbered on this forum as to whose effort should be foremost. Perhaps only one other member has come close to understanding my point, so I recognize my inability to effectively communicate. Nevertheless, I keep trying.

Being in the minority is nothing new to me, and I am used to the lack of mutual understanding, but for what it's worth; I don't seem to have the same problem on another forum.

[Designer]

FYI: I just visited mini comp thread #1492, and there was ONE photograph that I could vote for.

Congratulations!

[jeeperman]

Well there ya go, Jim. I found a few possabilities and it really comes down to preference, doesn't it. Not all of us like or see the same thing...thank god! What a boring world that would be.

I have been waiting....still have not found the post with your images.

[Andrew76]

FYI: I just visited mini comp thread #1492, and there was ONE photograph that I could vote for.

Congratulations!

Jim I was trying to help you out by offering some advice, and like I said, I do think quite a bit of what you have to say is valid, but my intention was not to belittle entrants, or make anyone feel bad, so I don't want any part of that.

[Polar01]

Well Jim, I am with the "jeeperman", I too am waiting for that post with your images, I am sure that a lot of other shooter are too. You asked me where you should post, I made a couple of suggestions, one was even in this thread that you started. Yet as of this posting of mine, no images from you, nice though that you saw "ONE photograph" that you could vote for in a mini comp thread. Jim from the start of you thread it brought one word to my mind it starts with a "T" and ends with a "L" now that is just my opinion, just as you have opinions too. So goodbye.

Allan

[Plumcrak]

I will be the first to admit that the images I posted in the mini's when I first joined here were, well, not very good at all. Under-exposed, over-exposed, leaning to one side or the other and on and on. Like others have stated, the mini's were a great place to get my feet wet. After some time, I started posting in other areas and asking for C&C, which I am so thankful I did. As soon as I asked for help, help came out of the woodwork from all corners of the world. I do believe that my photos, along with my understanding of some technical issues, has improved over the course of several months. This improvement is due mostly to the kind souls here that have encouraged me, instructed me and have helped me to capture things as I see them. Everybody has an opinion on what is good and what is not. I have never thought, for a single second, that anybody has ever belittled me or looked down upon me because of my "lack of proper photography skills". (until now that is)

Cheers

[Designer]

Paul, Andrew, Allan, and Jon; I thank you all for reading the postings here, and your continued lack of understanding I will chalk up to my own lack of writing skill. Since I am unable to effectively make my point, this will be the last post by me on this thread.

As to where to post my photographs, you did not catch my drift there, either. So much for subtlety.

Cheers

[revi]

FYI: I just visited mini comp thread #1492, and there was ONE photograph that I could vote for.

Congratulations!

That may be the case, but technically this series was rather good (I'm not even thinking about discussing artistic merit).

This is a forum aimed at learning photography. Things like sloping horizons are not immediately obvious to a beginner
(and that's not derogatory), and seeing them has to be learned.

[AB26]

FYI: I just visited mini comp thread #1492, and there was ONE photograph that I could vote for.

Congratulations!

Maybe you should have entered then there could have been one more to vote for.

[Donald]

.......but for what it's worth; I don't seem to have the same problem on another forum.

I've been standing back watching this discussion evolve and felt that all the relevant points were being made.

But it's in respect to the above comment that I would like to make a contribution and suggest that the fact that the same 'problem' is not experienced elsewhere is a reason to celebrate the success of the Mini Comps in achieving their original objective, and the underpinning values of CiC as a learning resource. The Mini Comps were created to contribute to helping people grow and develop photographically.

The error, arguably (and I think the point is made somewhere above in the thread), is to label them as 'competitions'. The simple and sole purpose of setting these up in the first place was to encourage people to post images into an online environment. Back in the old days, it was obvious that people were very wary of posting images up in the 'major' competitions in which the expectation was for only 'the best' to be showcased, or to expose their work to criticism in the main C & C sections of the forum. Experience of other fora had shown people that C & C could be unnecessarily brutal and not constructive (fascinating how some people forget that they were once a beginner). The Mini Comps were never intended to be about putting one's best effort forward.

So, the quality of image was not the driver or the criteria. The point was to encourage people to post and from that they could/would gain confidence to take the next step up in terms of allowing their work to be exposed to, hopefully, constructive and helpful C & C. If people don't like that as a principle underpinning the ethos of the Mini Comps, then they need to look for other opportunities to be involved in competitions where it is about striving for the highest quality.

The fact that the Mini Comps then took on an energy of their own and that some people choose to only inhabit that area of the forum has been unfortunate.

The poll at the end of each Mini Comp was to allow colleagues to give an acknowledgement of effort made. If members feel that someone has not made sufficient effort, then that is their judgement and they are not obliged to record any votes.

[Docbanana]

Designer, I think your point of view is coming through loud and clear. I just disagree with some of the assumptions that you seem to be making about the competitions and about the people who enter them. You have an idea about what the competitions ought to be (higher quality, allowing for feedback, the best of the best photographers post their best work) that just doesn't square with the original vision for creating that competition and for the way most of us are using it. You may need to just accept that this is the culture of this board. Or make incremental changes such as post gentle and helpful suggestions on the mini-comp threads where you think someone could benefit from a pointer. But making people feel "called out" for not living up to your expectations just kinda makes people feel shamed or belittled. You are also assuming the competition serves no purpose for those entering it when we are telling you that it does. You seeing signs of work being amateur (crooked horizon) and jumping to rather uncharitable assumptions about the photographer that are unfounded (lazy, sloppy, etc.). You are assuming that we think our work has no room for improvement just because we submitted it; not true in my case, I just am under the impression that I can participate in these competitions before I reach a point of perfection (if that ever happens). It is cool to win but I don't get bent out of shape if I lose, I just like to participate. I sometimes run races (half-marathon, 5K) for the same reason. Just to participate and stay fit and beat my personal best. I have no illusions that that my middle aged overweight self is going to beat that skinny young track star at the front of the line. Who cares? It is fun just to join the crowd who is trying to do something healthy and good... and enjoy the race.

And in my case, I know my work needs to improve. Until about 8 months ago I my "best camera" was an iPad. Then I upgraded to a $200 point-and-shoot and even started using that fancy photo editing software that comes free with Microsoft Office. My only 2 photos that won mini-competitions that were taken/edited this way, ha ha. I posted my favorite below. I finally upgraded to my first DSLR and Lightroom in January. Do I think I need some improvement? Uh...yeah. I can look at my photos and see flaws in them, some that would be impossible or difficult to fix at this point (though this portrait of the friendly hummingbird I named "Spot" still makes me smile...). There are probably flaws that you can see that I fail to notice...but I'll fix yours after I've fixed that ones that are currently bugging me. Such as: learn how to use the camera/software I have, work on the foreground, the background, the lighting, the color....you get the idea. My point is that I'm not being sloppy by posting imperfect work, I'm just dealing with the reality that I'm early in my development and my work isn't going to be perfect for a long time (if ever). I'm working on it and mostly know what I need to do to improve at this point, it is just a matter of having the time to practice and learn the skills I'm trying to develop (I'll probably post and ask for specific feedback later, when I reach a point where I really don't know what directions to go in order to improve...right now there are more directions than I can possibly handle at once). Also for me, a lot of my work hasn't been with the camera itself, but with preparing for shots by learning how to bring my subjects close to me. All of the animals that I photograph are wild animals (hummingbirds, chipmunks, squirrels, chickadees, etc.), mostly captured from a few feet away or less. Doing close-up photography on a skittish and fast wild animals is really fun... but it is technically challenging (in terms of shutter speeds, getting focus sharp when that close) and requires some extensive work earning the trust of the animals so that they tolerate the weird human with the clicking camera. Fortunately I've gotten really good at developing rapport with specific critters who are willing to be my models if paid an adequate salary of nuts, seeds, and/or nectar. I'll keep working on the camera part. And keep posting my imperfect efforts! I like the in mini competitions just to show others what I'm doing and to get some thumbs up/thumbs down kind of feedback that helps me assess how my stuff is generally being received. Cut me some slack and let me participate anyway, that's all I ask.

[mastamak]

A very interesting thread. I try to enter mini-comps occasionally and have even received the top vote a couple of times but generally I am down there with the 3 or 4 votes category. But I actually find it educational to vote for my favourite photo. I look carefully for all the usual criteria that make up a successful image then take the plunge. But here is the interesting thing. I find that the images I have voted for are never in the top category but generally below mid-range - in the 3-4 category. Whether there is some deeper meaning to this I have no idea. Perhaps it is just a function of my personal taste, or lack of, as the case may be

Grant

[Mike Buckley]

Donald and all,

I have always felt that the more clarity that can be provided about the intended outcomes of a particular group activity, the greater the likelihood of achieving those outcomes. A significant weakness in my mind of the mini and monthly competitions is that there is no attempt to state their intended outcomes, much less clarify them. So, it's understandable that people participate in them expecting different outcomes. That inevitably leads to people being disappointed because nobody's expectations are being effectively managed.

In contrast to that, consider the following statement of intended outcomes and suggestions about how to achieve them written by Donald in the sticky post of an ongoing post-processing challenge (perhaps all post-processing challenges):

"The purpose of the challenge is to provide all members with the same image and with it, an opportunity to explore and develop their post-processing skills and to examine and learn from how they and others approach the task. Although there will be a vote, the idea is not to be competitive, but to engage in a learning process. So, discussions and exchanges of views as we go along, are encouraged, although it would be helpful to avoid the 'Wow', 'I love it' type posts if we can."

If the discussion in this thread is ever going to result in anything more than a lot of people airing ideas, I strongly recommend that a comparable statement be added to the posts that announce the mini and monthly competitions.

[Geoff F]

Returning to Jim's comment about Competition #1492.

I found three images which were 'good enough' to get a vote from me. Not sure if I have picked the eventual three best placed photos though.

And another three could have got a vote from me, apart from a few editable items which I think could have improved them.

But the 'quality' of entries does vary considerably between different competitions; and sometimes I would like to vote for all of them.