Understanding Layers

[jcuknz]

Further to #17 I am confused as well becuase I believe we have people explaning various uses of layers/adjustment layers/layer masks and the different approaches would confuse anybody. You started off with a 'simple' task of combining five birds, each in their own area of the picture and rather than using a simple paste technque for most flexibility you need to keep each bird on its own layer so the command when you copy each is 'Paste as a [new] layer" or however adobe calls it. You end up with the chest of drawers with each bird in its own drawer/layer and each can be moved around to achive the composition you want at any stage [ within reason ... you will quickly find exceptions to that topwards the end of the process ]

However to see bird five in the bottom drawer you have to have 'holes' in the upper four layers where you have positioned it.
A small party went with Sue on her 90th birthday to places she remembered from younger days. Each segment was on a separate layer including the title which is a vector layer as opposed to photo raster layers.

We next I think start talking about adjustment layers which as said is a layer which contains the modification data [ I believe how RAW adjustment works except it is a separate file linked to the original file ? ]. The default setting in my programme has this as a pure white image in the layers palette and when I apply black paint to remove the effect [ or moderate it using a tone between Black and White ] it appears as a black mark in the Layer Palette and I can see the original image through the modified view from the AL being on top of the picture.
Here for purposes of this thread is a shot of my wife feeding a gull and I applied an adjustment layer using the threshold tool which converts it into either black or white depending on the original tones. I then used a black brush to paint the AL[T] layer to reveal the original bird underneath [ not a good example as the underside of the bird's wing was rather dark. but you can see some tone in its tail feathers. Early on in discussions I mentioned the ability to flood fill areas with a partial tone to partly modify the effect of the AL[T]. So to illustrate this I flood filled the top right quarter with a light grey and the bottom right quarter with full black to show what the original photo was.

I will pass on Layer Masks becuase I have only used this superior technique once but really it is like using an adjustment layer to mask out part of an image with black showing/hiding and white hiding/showing depending on how the programme is set up to work. In PSP I have the option of working either way but yet to work out why I normally use an erase brush which is a destructive process and definitely an inferior way to go

[Stagecoach]

Perhaps something we should all be aware of is that there is difference with the operation of layers and masks between Photoshop and Elements.

I'm an Elements user only and whilst learning layers and masks (and still very much learning) found that there is an assumption by some that both systems are identical in this area which can lead to much confusion.

[Brownbear]

Hi Photo Nut,

Thank you for sharing in great detail... I am going to try the copy and paste, and erase method once more just to learn more about using layers.

When the idea of combining a series of birds shots came to mind, I didn't realize how complicated it was going to be to do... I just envisioned putting as many of my birds in one shot because I had a nice series of the owls in various stages of flight. I thought that combining all of them in one image would result in a very nice and also a very creative image.

The fact of the matter is that from trying this I have learned that my idea is not going to work because I can't fit all of the birds or even five of the bird shots in one image... I had to shrink each of the owls in adjustment layer just to fit four of him/her in one shot. So the each one is smaller then the last one. And because I can't fit the bird series in one image the wing positions are all off, ie; it is impossible to fit in all the positions in order before landing.

I did manage to get as far as combining several layer masks of the bird in one image, but I didn't finish the image because I couldn't figure out how to erase the different layer portions, (At this point in time I find switching between black, grey and white brushes confusing) and also because the exercise has made me realize that my idea is not going to work.

However, I am going to save this idea for future for shots that are not so close-up. I will do some more reading and view some tutorials on using layers.

Here is as far as I managed to progress with my idea, which had potential.




Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. This is just my 2nd time around trying layers and even though I didn't manage to execute my idea, I learned a lot. Truly appreciated.

[Digital]

Perhaps something we should all be aware of is that there is difference with the operation of layers and masks between Photoshop and Elements.

I'm an Elements user only and whilst learning layers and masks (and still very much learning) found that there is an assumption by some that both systems are identical in this area which can lead to much confusion.

Grahame, I can not agree with you more. From my limited experience, I have found layers easier to use in Photoshop as opposed to Elements.

Bruce

[Brownbear]

My sincere apologies. I didn't realize how complicated a process it was when I asked my question. Nevertheless, I learned a lot from my question and I hope others did, too.

Thank you to all.

Grahame, I can not agree with you more. From my limited experience, I have found layers easier to use in Photoshop as opposed to Elements.

Bruce

[Digital]

My sincere apologies. I didn't realize how complicated a process it was when I asked my question. Nevertheless, I learned a lot from my question and I hope others did, too.

Thank you to all.

Christina, no need to apologize. It was a very good question, and I know I definitely learned something also.
CiC is all about learning.


Bruce

[jcuknz]

I think the first step is to decide are you going to select out the subject from the background, as with the one of birds left of frame in Sue's oicture or else leave the background there and erase it [or parts] to make room for adjacent pictures.

My first thought with your birds was that one would select them out from the background as with the original photo of yours I worked on and add a sky of my choice as a layer below the bird but it might be more complicated, or as easy *, with the foliage b/g of the shot in #23. The other thing is to decide if you are going to alter the size of the image on each layer, as I did with my Railcar earlier where the front is an enlargement from the photo of it at the other end of the bridge. A spur of the moment decision which worked out in editing.

With birds in the sky as somebody pointed out you need to make sure the lighting is compatible between the shots. Hollywood and successors take this to great detail when doing blue/green screen shots matching focal length of lenses for instance to maintain same perspective between 2nd unit and main shoot images. Here as with panoramas if may be possible to match the density of the sky with the control I find at the top of the layers palette which usually sits at 100% but can be reduced to lighten that layer to match the other layer's sky. First time I did this was after shooting a pano with a polariser filter

With your Owls and the birds each on their own layer you could try using a soft and weak intensity [ low opacity?] brush to get rid of those sharp edges [ assuming you saved it as a psd file with the layers intack ]. I thought of copying a wing but both rear images have the edge of the upper layer over them. There also seems to be a problem in altering the size with the 2nd and 3rd birds wings not matching the front bird ... I don't know how PSE works but PSP can adjust as a percentage up or down, compressing or interpolating extra pixels with no distortion unless deliberate. Seciond thoughts they are part of a burst sequence and owl's do THAT

Anyway, working with what you have given me I think I have got the top left bird moderately right and in cloning adjacent material I have copied from either side of the vertical frame line ton greate a background which 'could' be right. Left of the bottom frame line brought the light green down a fair bit. In most of this I was working with first a 45% brush and ending with a 32% brush and various sizes. frequently changing what I am picking up to avoid repetative shapes appearing, like a clump of grass or a distinctive branch ... sometimes getting rid of a distinctive object by cloning it out even when it wasn't really neccessary .... all part of what you think 'looks right'.

*Way back on a long gone blog site the OP had a tight 3:2 wedding group and the clients wanted a 10x8 so I increased canvas size and cloned foliage and sky to fill the top and some grass in the foreground ... it was all in the photo for the OP.

another edit .... don't forget that you can clone from one layer onto another so long as you have the pick-up layer selected when you choose the pick-up point and then the receiving layer when you copy .... it is right click and left click with PSP ... I don't know how PSE does it.

[jcuknz]

I am a stubborn so-and-so so I though I would see how far I could go doing similar to the clipped wingtip photo Copying and then rotating to match angle and sliding into place. Have a feeling that PSPX6 which I downloaded last night and briefly played with has an 'intelligent selection tool' which would enable me to quickly select the second bird and adjust its density to match the other two. As it was I roughly encircled it and after pasting as a new layer used the erase brush to get rid the the extranious material.

SO lots of FUN for you Christina if you have the time to spend

[yauman]

Christina - I cannot recommend this book highly enough - it has the best explanation and demonstration of how to use adjustment layers I have ever seen. The DVD that comes with it is worth the price of the book. For tools in common with Elements, it mentions what ever difference there is between the two programs: http://tinyurl.com/lg2metg

[Brownbear]

Yauman, thank you for the recommendation. I have been looking for a good book on Photoshop Elements so I will check this one out, and likely purchase it.

Christina - I cannot recommend this book highly enough - it has the best explanation and demonstration of how to use adjustment layers I have ever seen. The DVD that comes with it is worth the price of the book. For tools in common with Elements, it mentions what ever difference there is between the two programs: http://tinyurl.com/lg2metg

[Brownbear]

Photo Nut,

Thank you for all your help and the extra tips, and the above and beyond effort to show me how one can combine a series of bird photos in one image using layers. I use Lightroom for processing my photos, so this exercise proved to be extra challenging for me because I am not as familiar with Elements as I should be.

I thought it would be relatively easy to combine the series of bird shot because the images were taken at the same time (lighting, background etc all the same - but in fact they do differ a little in each shot). I failed to consider the size of the bird in the shot but I see that I can re-size them proportionally. In hindsight, I think it would work better if I could put the photos together in a vertical manner.

I saved the file as a PSD (including all the layers), the raw files and all the how-to prints from this thread with the idea to revisit this idea in future. I can envision a very nice print of this owl, maybe on a plain or a blue sky background. At this time, accomplishing this idea of mine would take countless hours, perhaps days, to do and because of my limited skill set using Elements, I wouldn't be able to do it well. For that reason, I have decided to save this idea for future. On the day that I manage to do it well, I will post the result in this thread.

All that said, I plan to learn how to use layers and from the views of this thread I suspect that others find it complicated, too. So in a week or two, I will find a simpler series of bird photos, maybe just two photos, likely gulls in a blue sky, trying all the methods presented to me here, and post the results in a new thread (because this thread is too, long and confusing) and I will include a how-to so others at the beginning layers level may learn, too.

Thank you.

[MajaMolly]

Have you tried any online tutorial for PS Elements? There are some really good ones that take you through step by step. Working through tutorials helped me a lot when I was first starting out.

Kim Klassen has some free ones and paid courses. I did the free ones. You work step by step with her images so you can easily see that you are or are not understanding and getting it. I really enjoyed them. I think her site is www.kimklassencafe.com

[Brownbear]

Hi Maja,

Not yet.. I have the book on Elements 9 but it is just so/so... I will check out Kim Klassen's tutorials... Understanding the concept behind everything I do is important to me, or I just get lost. Thank you.

Have you tried any online tutorial for PS Elements? There are some really good ones that take you through step by step. Working through tutorials helped me a lot when I was first starting out.

Kim Klassen has some free ones and paid courses. I did the free ones. You work step by step with her images so you can easily see that you are or are not understanding and getting it. I really enjoyed them. I think her site is www.kimklassencafe.com

[yauman]

Christina, Please look at this short video - scrub to the 4:38 mark and start watching. I think it's exactly what you are trying to do. In the video they merged 4 pictures to make it look like 4 shots of a BMX jump - just like your owls, all using layer masking. Hope this helps
https://berkeley.box.com/LayersMasks
(Btw, you have to watch it on the site - due to copyright concern, it cannot be downloaded.)

[jcuknz]

You are most welcome Christina ...
Not sure I agree it is complicated for what I mainly use adjustment layers ... which is for tweaks to most shots I take so unless you don't have the time the best thing is to start doing this yesterday and practice makes if not perfect at least not something to be nervous about.

It CAN get complicated as when I wanted to do a short animation featuring an animated bird scrabbling along a beach.
The essence of drawn animation is to break the drawing down into the bits that move. Moving the whole body had me change the background for each frame so first job was to shoot a sea shore with my G3 using burst to get myself 80 frames. So that is getting close to 80 layers.
To animate the goose's legs required four frames back and another two forward [ slight differences in foot detail]
I envisaged it 'honking' so the lower beak opening required 'closed' and two others.

In compiling each frame I was aware that if I turn off all but the few required layers then the editor only saves those showing so a frame might contain background, body, leg part way back, other leg part way forward, and closed beak, nearly forgot ... when he was in the water's edge there were layers showing the spray his feet kicked up
Also there was a title which faded in so each density of the lettering was another layer at that point. The whole thing ran for less than a minute.

Hence to make sense of all this I endorse the suggestion earlier to change the name of each layer to something which tells you what it is if you are doing more than half a dozen layers. To change a layers name double click on the layer in the layer palette and follow the pop-up menu whathaveyou.

The sad end to all this effort which took me best part of a week, and some, was the file was too big and when compressed looked horrible and I don't know how to solve the problem .... but it was an interesting exercise

I have no drawing skills so all the drawings were done by modifying existing ... leg ... select leg save as a new layer, rotate a few degrees, move into position ...... name "Leftleg second position" .... for the background I used the camera file number.

From what I have read on blogs I know I am not the only one to do such complicated uses of layers.

[Brownbear]

Thank you Yauman. I will view that tutorial today.

Thank you for sharing Photo Nut... Yes, indeed what I was trying was a piece of cake compared to your project. I did figure out the copy and paste into a layer method, just yesterday.

[Brownbear]

A great BIG thank you to everyone who replied to this thread.

I finally figured out layers and layer masks and I even managed to combine three gull photos and three owl photos. Not perfectly as this is my first try and it will take me a while to fine-tune my selection skills. However, I hope that say a year from now my skills will have developed to a level where I will be able to combine a series of bird photos into a single photo, likely something creative and fun.

My first exercise was to combine a series of gull shots and after managing the gull combo I figured I may as well revisit the owl shot, and post in this thread (instead of a new thread) and be done with it... Seriously, posted here for someone else new to editing in Photoshop Elements to learn from and see that it was not as difficult as I made it out to be... [/I]

The tutorial that Yau-Man recommended was very helpful even though it was directed at Photoshop CS... I also found this very short and simple tutorial helpful because I learned where the tools were, ie; paint brush and how to switch between black and white.

https://berkeley.app.box.com/LayersMasks

What I didn't understand until today was that one is to use a Paint Brush to hide or reveal simply because I have never used this tool in Elements before. I also needed to learn where the click the little switch button between black to hide and white to reveal button was in Photoshop Elements. Not know these two things was the source of my confusion.

For my first exercise using the gulls I used Dave's copy and paste method and I found it easy enough to do. However the colour of the blue sky varied in all the gull shots, simply because of the lighting in the sky even though they were taken seconds apart. As a result my blue sky was blotchy.

So I tried Johns'/Pauls' method of adjustment layers, and this is the method I prefer because it allows one to use one background allowing a consistent sky and also because it takes so much time to select around birds that it makes perfect sense to be able to save one file for future fine-tuning without having to do all the work again. Once I understood what the paint brush tool was and how to switch between black and white the exercise was easy, and only limited by my selection skills.

Other...

Andrew's B&W/Colour exercise is a great way to wrap ones head around layers

I kept referring back to L. Paul's comments to make sure I was working on the mask and not the image. I also found that the (backslash /) tool to place a ruby red colour over the mask, so I could see what I was hiding or revealing, very helpful.

After I figured out what the brush tool was and how to switch between Black and White to hide and reveal, Steve's and Photo Nut's comments finally made sense to me.

I also found Steve's suggestion of dragging and dropping images and layers easy to do and far more efficient then using the drop down menu. I also learned how to re-size and move images about in a single a photo.

I purchased a magazine handbook on PS Elements which was helpful, as were all the tutorials suggested to me.

Here are the images, far from perfect because it is my first attempt and I expect that takes some time to learn how to select things well. And that one also needs to learn a bunch of other tricks for the final result to look good.

When the idea first popped into my head I didn't realize that there were other complications such as sizing the bird proportionally and fitting the birds into one photo, wing position, etc... However, I can see myself using layers, say a year from now to combine a series of bird shots, eg my owl on a white background, or a series of birds against a blue sky.



The gull exercise



The owl



Thank you to all!

[pnodrog]

Great Christina - you have come to grips with what I think is the most powerful set of tools for photo editing. Now that you have learned the basics the rest will just be a matter of practice and experimenting. You are over the main hurdle and it is nice to know that so many posts have assisted you.

[dje]

For my first exercise using the gulls I used Dave's copy and paste method and I found it easy enough to do. However the colour of the blue sky varied in all the gull shots, simply because of the lighting in the sky even though they were taken seconds apart. As a result my blue sky was blotchy.

Hi Christina

Glad to see you getting on top of this.

Just a clarification on the copy and paste method I suggested. It is important in this example to select just the bird and no sky. Otherwise you will get the sort of variations in sky colour you noticed. You may get a good enough selection using either the Quick Selection Tool or the Magic Wand but you can also refine this with the brush using the Quick Mask Mode in PS. The difference between the copy and paste method vs the layer mask method is a matter of where you do the selection refinement.

There is a good tutorial here on the Quick Mask Mode. Note that this can be used for creating layer masks too.

I should also add that I do agree with the others that the layer mask approach is a more versatile approach than the copy and paste approach.

Dave

[Brownbear]

Hi Dave,

Me, too.

Oops. Yes, of course. For some reason I assumed that if I used the copy and paste method I could avoid selecting around just the bird (thinking that the sky would be the same in each photo) which would be a lot quicker. If I had selected around just the bird and copied and pasted, your method would have worked just as well as the layer masks.

Thank you for the link.

Hi Christina

Glad to see you getting on top of this.

Just a clarification on the copy and paste method I suggested. It is important in this example to select just the bird and no sky. Otherwise you will get the sort of variations in sky colour you noticed. You may get a good enough selection using either the Quick Selection Tool or the Magic Wand but you can also refine this with the brush using the Quick Mask Mode in PS. The difference between the copy and paste method vs the layer mask method is a matter of where you do the selection refinement.

There is a good tutorial here on the Quick Mask Mode. Note that this can be used for creating layer masks too.

I should also add that I do agree with the others that the layer mask approach is a more versatile approach than the copy and paste approach.

Dave