Beyond Lightroom

[Downrigger]

Pretty much newbie question:
LR has been my only PP vehicle so far. I'm sure I still need to make better photographs in the first place and learn more about how to use LR effectively. But...
I have some beginning interest in exploring the amendments available through some of the NIK software, particularly Silver Efex, HDR Efex, Color Efex, and maybe Viveza.
As I understand it, one starts with non-destructive editing of RAW in LR then (pretty much as I do presently) then exports the file as a TIFF and works with it in these other software tools.

1. Is this a reasonable next step in my journey? Or should or learn PSE or CS6 next?
2. Is this a correct description of the workflow if I download the NIK package?
3. If using NIK, are the finished TIFF files no longer suitable for filing in the LR libraries or collections or can you reimport them into LR, and keep them next to the non-NIK-modified files in those locations?

[davidedric]

1. Only you can decide

2. And 3. Half right, it's a bit better than that. LR creates the TIFF and hands it off to Nik whatever-efex Then, when you have finished in Nik you save it, and Nik hands it back to LR where it takes it's place in the catalogue alongside the original image. No need to re-import

[Geoff F]

To some extent the decision depends on whether you want to work with third party 'plug in' software or to use layers and masks for this and other forms of editing. In which case I would say get one of the newer forms of Elements, or one of the CS options (CS4 or CS5 would be sufficient) alternatively, other editing software which enables this method of working.

Personally, I would be totally lost without the layers and masks option; but it isn't for everyone.

[chauncey]

I've never used plug-ins and love PS, but...it has a learning curve measured in years.

[rpcrowe]

I have NIK Suite and love it but, I have also recently taken the plunge into OnOne Perfect Photo Suite. This combination of modules is available as a plug-in for Lightroom at a lower price than the plug-in for Photoshop ($130 for Lightroom version; $180 for Photoshop version - prices in U.S. Dollars).

The advantage of the Perfect Photo Suite over NIK is that it incorporates layers and masks which just about makes the Lightroom a full-fledged editing program.

In addition to Perfect Layers and Perfect Mask modules of Perfect Photo Suite, there is Perfect Resize (which was once called Genuine Fractals, Perfect Black and White along with several additional modules, including a portrait module and a module similar to NIK's Color Efex.

I have just downloaded the Perfect Photo Suite 7.5 at a reduced price for NIK owners but, have not used it to any extent. However, it looks quite interesting and exciting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8F6vbL_4s

Note: I am assured by OnOne Software that when Perfect Photo Suite 8 becomes available shortly, I will get a free upgrade...

[Downrigger]

So far, several somewhat different answers as entirely expected and appropriate (different strokes and paths for different folks) but it is all helpful and appreciated.

[davidedric]

Well, to expand my answer to #1

Nik plugins, which I do use, are best viewed as an extension to Lightroom, and can be learned incrementally, and quite easily.

PS/CS or PSE is a whole new game. Personally, I would use Lightroom and Nik until you find limitations that you can't overcome, and then research if another product could help.

[Downrigger]

The advantage of the Perfect Photo Suite over NIK is that it incorporates layers and masks which just about makes the Lightroom a full-fledged editing program.

In addition to Perfect Layers and Perfect Mask modules of Perfect Photo Suite, there is Perfect Resize (which was once called Genuine Fractals, Perfect Black and White along with several additional modules, including a portrait module and a module similar to NIK's Color Efex.

Really enticing presentation Richard..So this also (destructively) modifies files exported as TIFF, too? (and then passively deposits them, as currently worked on, in home base in the LR library?)

[Downrigger]

Dave, thank you, that helps.

[Downrigger]

The other question being: why does Adobe leave the capacities added by NIK, Perfect Photo Suite et al to third parties? As I understand it these plugins bring resources not available in LR, PSE or the CSs. Or have I got this wrong?

[FootLoose]

Note: I am assured by OnOne Software that when Perfect Photo Suite 8 becomes available shortly, I will get a free upgrade...

Perfect Photo Suite 8 is available for download today (I have just downloaded my copy). It looks really good, offering much more control over the application of the presets.

If anyone is wondering what this is about, check out the Tips & Tricks video on this page http://www.ononesoftware.com/install/suite8

[DanK]

I have recently started using the Nik plugins and have found them handy. however, here is a different perspective: the world is full of superb professional photographers who use nothing but a raw editor (like Lightroom) and a pixel editor that can do layers and masks (like Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro). I doubt you will find many who skip the pixel editor and use only Nik. I'm neither superb nor a professional, but if I had to choose, I would give up Nik in a hearbeat before giving up photoshop (or the equivalent). I do most of my editing solely in Lightroom, but when I have to go out of it, it is almost always either for stacking (Zerene) or selections and masks (photoshop).

Photoshop used to have the disadvantage of being very expensive. now it is only very expensive over the long term, since ou can buy the photography-only creative cloud subscription for $10/month. It still has one big disadvantage: it is an extremely complex piece of software that does far more than I need and, worse for the beginner, often provides a variety of totally different ways to accomplish pretty much the same thing. This makes it a real chore to learn. I finally bought a temporary subscription to Lynda.com and worked through some hours of their tutorials.

[pnodrog]

I use lightroom and Photoshop but if I was only allowed one it would be Photoshop just because in terms of photo editing it just gives you far more control than anything else.

An important step for any creative photographer is to learn how to use a photo editor and master the basics of different types of layers and masks. You can use NIK software as much as you like but there will come a time when you need to have the complete control that only a good editor gives.

Master one sooner rather than later.

[dan marchant]

1. Is this a reasonable next step in my journey? Or should or learn PSE or CS6 next?

Yes it is reasonable but depends what you want to do. LR primarily enhances what is already in the RAW data, NIK and other plugins do the same. Photoshop allows you to change what is there (add a new sky, retouch a woman to look like a plastic doll, create stunning digital art from scratch. I want to focus on getting the best from the photo I took, rather than changing it, so I am going the LR/NIK route.

2. Is this a correct description of the workflow if I download the NIK package?

Yes

3. If using NIK, are the finished TIFF files no longer suitable for filing in the LR libraries or collections or can you reimport them into LR, and keep them next to the non-NIK-modified files in those locations?

You don't need to re-import them. As mentioned above, when NIK is used as a plugin for LR, LR will create a TIFF file, pass it to NIK for editing and, when you save, the edited file will be passed back to LR and added to the catalog automatically.

4. The other question being: why does Adobe leave the capacities added by NIK, Perfect Photo Suite et al to third parties? As I understand it these plugins bring resources not available in LR, PSE or the CSs. Or have I got this wrong?

Because they don't want to.... yet. It is often better to focus on getting fewer features as good as possible than it is to tray and get as many features into a program as possible. More features = more that can go wrong. They might one day introduce these features or make another package that can do it (Photoshop can do some of the things that NIK can do).

An alternate view is that it is good to have a community of other companies grow up around your core product, providing additional features. It makes your software better at little or no cost to you, thus making it more appealing.

[jcuknz]

Paint Shop Pro recently offered me NIK for free so I took it So far I have only had the need to use one of the tools and I know I could find it in PSP if I looked but it is easier to open NIK and use it and then go back to PSP. I would be lost without my pixel editor becuase I have learnt to work with it but I know others work differently without what I consider essential.
Any competant editor is going to take some 'learning' .... I was ready to give PSP away for the first month but then it started to 'make sense' ... fortuneately becuase back then the only alternative was Photoshop at four times the price

[DanK]

LR primarily enhances what is already in the RAW data, NIK and other plugins do the same. Photoshop allows you to change what is there (add a new sky, retouch a woman to look like a plastic doll, create stunning digital art from scratch.

I think this is an artificial and partly misleading comparison. Both allow you to change the appearance of the image, e.g., by changing tonality, changing color balance, sharpening, reducing noise, removing details, dodging, burning, etc. Even if you have no interest in replacing skies or making people look like dolls, Photoshop offers more flexibility in making the same changes that LR can make. for example, I often use black backgrounds, and if the lighting is not quite right, they don't turn out completely black. That is very hard to fix well in LR. it is quite easy in photoshop: I select the nearly black area by color, tidy up the selection, turn the selection into a mask, and then apply a levels adjustment.

Photoshop will do a vast number of things, most of which I have no interest in doing. But if you need to make changes such as those LR will do, but to selected parts of the image, an editor with selections and masks is often essential. In some cases, where the areas are defined more by tonality and color than by a boundary, you can do much the same thing with Nik control points, but in many cases, you either can't or can't easily.

It all boils down to what you think you need to add to your postprocessing arsenal. But for me, I would be disappointed if Nik disappeared but seriously limited if I no longer had an an editor that can do selections.

[dan marchant]

....for example, I often use black backgrounds, and if the lighting is not quite right, they don't turn out completely black. That is very hard to fix well in LR. it is quite easy in photoshop: I select the nearly black area by color, tidy up the selection, turn the selection into a mask, and then apply a levels adjustment.

Photoshop will do a vast number of things, most of which I have no interest in doing. But if you need to make changes such as those LR will do, but to selected parts of the image.....

Can I ask when you last tried Lightroom (as in which version)? Both of these tasks are trivial in Lightroom using an adjustment brush in v4 and 5.

[DanK]

For perhaps 90% of my images, I edit only in Lightroom (apart from stacking). I use version 5.

I have sometimes had difficulty getting enough control over edges when using the Lightroom adjustment brush, if the borders are complex in shape and tonality. I have the same problem in Photoshop, but Photoshop gives you a large number of tools for repairing and refining the edges of selections. If I remember correctly, the image below is one that took 5 or 10 minutes of corrections of the selection.

However, your question is helpful. It makes me think I am underestimating LR. I took a few minutes at lunch to make a virtual copy of the pre-PS version of the image below and worked on it with the LR adjustment brush. Here is what I came up with. Let me know if you think this is off track:

--Where an edge between two large areas is clear, using a small adjustment brush with no feathering and tracing the edge works quite well, particularly if you blow it up to 1:1.

--If you use a large brush to quickly paint a large area (which is what I needed), the edges are not as clean. You could do the edges first, then paint in the rest.

--where the edge is complex, as where there are little protrusions at the bottom of this figure, or hairs at the top end, the LR brush sometimes fails to find the edge. I have a hunch this is because you can't control the criteria used to select the edge, e.g., restrict it to color, as you can to some degree in photoshop.

--the list of adjustments one can do with the brush has gotten substantially bigger in recent versions of lightroom, but it is still only a subset. In contrast, when using masks, one can apply any adjustment the software can do.

So, I end up with the conclusion that the LR adjustment brush can substitute for selections more often than I had realized, but still does not fully substitute for selections and masks.

Back to the OP's question. Nik control points are also a substitute for selections. When you don't need a clear border, I sometimes find that technology quicker. When you do need a clear border, it seems less valuable to me.

[Downrigger]

I took a few minutes at lunch to make a virtual copy of the pre-PS version of the image below and worked on it with the LR adjustment brush. Here is what I came up with. Let me know if you think this is off track:

Very helpful. Lovely work on the milkweed pod - how you got the bristles agains the black, i am not sure. Helps me think I can watch and wait, and practice for now, before adding more PP software.

[DanK]

Mark,

Re the milkweed: thanks. I just noticed "Utah and the Adirondacks" in your profile. Don't often see "adirondacks," let alone in combination with Utah. Here is one from a couple of summers ago in the Adirondacks.

Dan