Group photo with D90 + which lens?

[blacksheep]

Hi,
I have a question about a group photo.
I have Nikon D90 and two lenses, one prime 35mm and the other kit lens 18-105mm.
I also have a speedlight SB700.

Tomorrow, I will shoot a group of 15-20 people for a graduation ceremony.
I already went there to hunt a good spot, and found a moderate steps where I plan to line the students.

Some questions I have:

1. I have been checking some forums for tips to take a group photo, and noticed that most of the time it is recommended to use a zoom lens 18-105mm instead of a prime 35mm (in my case). So it must be better to use around 24 mm on zoom, and try to get as close as possible to the subject, rather than using a prime 35mm and step back as needed?
Which way, will I be able to achieve a sharper image of every single face?

2. I will take this photo at around 16:00, and the students will be standing on the steps where they will face almost directly to the sun, or bit from the west side. Unfortunately I could not find a good spot in a shade/where people can stand the sun at their back. Any tips to still make a good photo? Perhaps to use the speedlight?

3. Steps has around only 20 cm difference in height - can I still make everyone's face visible?

Thanks for your help in advance!

[Manfred M]

Having 15 to 25 people looking into the sun does not make for a very attractive image. Your Speedlight is not going to push out nearly enough light to do anything for the image, and putting it far enough back to get that kind of coverage (without any light modifiers), is going to diminish its effect even more. I'd keep that tool in my camera bag.

I would hope for an overcast day that gives you nice, diffuse light that will prevent harsh shadows in your subjects faces.

Line up your subjects in at least three staggered rows, with a bit of space between the people, so that the heads of the second row look over the shoulders of the first row (this means you will have to arrange the people by height, shortest in the front and tallest in the back. The third row would have to be situated on another row of steps, looking out over the second row, and directly over the heads of the first row. If you line up the people correctly, you should have at least 40cm of step rise between the first and third row, plus any height advantage of having the shortest people in front and the tallest in the back. You will have to take some care in arranging the subjects by height.

Shoot at an aperture of at least f/11 to give you the "sweet spot" in the lens as well as giving you a decent amount of DoF. I would be tempted to shoot from a tripod, using your zoom lens. The 35mm unit could work as well, but you will have to position yourself more precisely to get the shot.

[blacksheep]

Hello Manfred,
Thank you for your help!
I am indeed hoping for a overcast day...that would solve it for sure..!

As for arrangement of the people, I think I will try that. I only forgot to write in my first post that the steps are also very deep, which is not handy when having more than three rows of people.. there will be too much distance between the lines.

I am asked to shoot one shot with 16 people, and the other with about 25 people. I hope the same spot will work for both.

Good to know that 35mm lens would also work, but do you know why using 24mm on zoom lens is generally recommended?
I'm still wondering if that's something to do with sharpness on the image, as I would have to step back more when using 35 mm instead of the zoom lens.

[blacksheep]

These are the scouted spots.
The first two are my option, as they are not far from where they have the ceremony.
The other two options, I took them just in case as they would include a bit of school environment in the background.

[blacksheep]

One more question, why are you tempted to use a zoom lens with a tripod?
I was wondering whether to take a tripod or not. In the end I though I won't need it as I would shoot with 1/100 at least anyway. Am I thinking wrong?

[Manfred M]

Good to know that 35mm lens would also work, but do you know why using 24mm on zoom lens is generally recommended?

The 35mm lens on the D90 (I have both a D90 and the 35mm lens) is that it is a "normal" lens and you would likely have to stand back fairly far to frame the shot. The 18mm - 105 has everything from a wide angle to a short telephoto, so is more versatile. Once you are set up with a zoom, you can adjust the focal length so it gives you a bit more flexibility.

The 35mm is a touch faster, but you need to stop down to give yourself a bit more depth of field. The 35mm lens is likely to be a bit sharper and will have less distortion.

[William W]

Using the zoom lens (and probably at around 24mm) makes more sense than using the Prime Lens – Manfred has basically explained why – it is all about keeping a closer rather than a farther Subject Distance. Keeping a closer rather than farther SD is for two main reasons: one for control and two to be within the Flash’s Working Distance.

The way to get all the faces clear in the shot is to have the camera ELEVATION slightly higher than the tallest person and ensure ALL the faces are looking directly down the axis of the lens.

I am not convinced that you cannot find a venue (or alternatively, manipulate the arrangement of the Group on those steps), such that the sun will be behind or behind and to the side of the group so you can then use (Direct on Camera) Flash as Fill: having the faces looking directly into a low afternoon sun is a recipe for a group of very strained portrait faces.

Yes, I suggest that you use a tripod if you have one. That is again, for two main reasons: one is to keep the camera still and more easily at the correct elevation and secondly to allow your DIRECTION of the SUBJECTS and MONITORING of the faces without having to look through the viewfinder.

1/100s is too slow to be safe for an available light shot: you risk BLUR due to SUBJECT MOVEMENT (and camera movement if the lens is not stabilized / or tripod & release).

If you do use Flahs as Fill and do NOT use at least one stop of Flash as Fill above the Ambient Exposure, then 1/100s is also unsafe, for the same reasons of possible movement blur captured by the Ambient Exposure.

Have a read of this (Ref Posts #6 and Post #10): Help with group photo?

WW

[blacksheep]

Thank you again, Manfred! So it was only about the flexibility - then I think I would go for 35mm as I am more after a sharper image.

[blacksheep]

Thank you for your help, Bill!

Using the zoom lens (and probably at around 24mm) makes more sense than using the Prime Lens – Manfred has basically explained why – it is all about keeping a closer rather than a farther Subject Distance. Keeping a closer rather than farther SD is for two main reasons: one for control and two to be within the Flash’s Working Distance.

Oh dear I thought it was only about flexibility - so it is still better to be closer to your subject, considering I should use a flashlight. It seems usage of flashlight here is absolutely imperative. The weather in the end is going to be not so nice anymore, so I will have to use it... this maybe a silly question, but how can I check the flash working distance?

The way to get all the faces clear in the shot is to have the camera ELEVATION slightly higher than the tallest person and ensure ALL the faces are looking directly down the axis of the lens. ....Yes, I suggest that you use a tripod if you have one.

I came to a new question about this! I need to climb on a ladder to be higher than the tallest person at the back, but then how can I use a tripod on a ladder? I imagine something very comical about this...

May I also ask what you meant by "one stop of Flash as Fill above the Ambient Exposure"? (Sorry I'm not too experienced..)

Have a read of this (Ref Posts #6 and Post #10):

Yes, done, I learned a lot from that thread but still did not get my wondering answered... thanks for your help here.

[William W]

. . . how can I check the flash working distance?

Research FLASH GUIDE NUMBER

Be always within the DISTANCE to the SUBJECT set by guide number of the flash for the ISO and the Aperture that is being used.

The Flash will probably have a set of Guide Numbers for different zoom positions of the flash head. These flash head zoom positions correspond to zoom FL position of the lens (or the FL of the Prime lens being used).

*

May I also ask what you meant by "one stop of Flash as Fill above the Ambient Exposure"? (Sorry I'm not too experienced..)

There are TWO exposures to consider when using Flash as Fill. The first is the AMBIENT exposure.

So let’s say for instance you have a slightly overcast and the sun is filtering on the back of the Subject’s and you take a Lightmeter reading of the BACKGROUND SCENE and the meter reveals that the correct exposure for that BACKGROUND is F/8 @ 1/200s @ ISO200. (we need to know this for another reason - read on) This is NOT the ambient reading of the FACES of the SUBJECTS, which will be in a little bit of shadow.

Now you take a light meter reading of the skin tones on the FACES of the Subjects and let’s say that reveals the correct exposure for FACES is: F/5.6 @ 1/200s @ ISO200.

“ONE STOP of FLASH AS FILL over the AMBIENT” would be if you set the Flash to expose the FILL on the FACES at F/8 @ ISO200 (1/200s), - that is to say the Flash is ‘filling in’ ONE stop over the ambient exposure that would have otherwise been correct for the FACES.

Now in the above example the Flash Fill on the Faces will also balance exactly the AMBIENT exposure for the background – so there will be only a little “POP” of the Subjects out of the background, due to the FILL LIGHTING.

IF we wanted more ‘POP’ of the Subjects by virtue of the FILL LIGHTING, we could set the FLASH to expose faces correctly at F/11 @ ISO200 (1/200s) and thus the background would be rendered darker than the faces – but this would be 2 stops of fill over the ambient – because we measure the “stops of fill over the ambient” as relative to the correct ambient exposure for the area which is being filled, not the general scene.

*

The relationship about SUBJECT MOVEMENT and “number of stops of fill over the ambient” is because at about one stop of fill over the ambient and for “normally used shutter speeds for flash” (that is about 1/50s to 1/250s) – it is usually safe enough to assume that one stop more than the ambient of flash exposure, will cover-up any slight subject movement which will be captured by the ambient exposure of the Subject.

This relationship however changes when “dragging the shutter” (which you might also research, but is not applicable to this shooting scenario). Dragging the Shutter usually requires Shutter Speeds of 1/30s and slower being employed.

*

If using Flash as fill is too daunting for this shoot – then don’t – but rather put your effort into finding a venue in OPEN SHADE and use that area. If you do this then use a shutter speed of about 1/400s to be reasonably safe apropos capturing movement blur

OR if you have to be out in the sun – make a tight shot and with the sun behind the Subjects and let some of the background overexpose if necessary. . .

This thread below is about shooting in bright midday sun and you might note that my advice was to carefully employ the DIRECTION of the sun and then shoot at F/11 @ 1/200s @ ISO200 (or equivalent). This strategy allows for the faces to be exposed about one stop under and the background exposed about one stop over, and both of which are recoverable in post production.

HERE (Ref Post #4 and Post #9): Dealing With Bright Midday Sun

WW

[William W]

Addendum –

IF the weather is really nasty (black and very overcast) then the Flash will likely NOT be used as "Fill" - but it will become the KEY (main) Light. In this case, "dragging the shutter" is an applicable option.

However, that is a great deal of theory to learn and practice to execute at a reasonable level by tomorrow, so you must make the most appropriate choices given the options and examples provided so that the outcomes are suitable to your situation and within your skill level and stress levels, too.

WW

[blacksheep]

Oh dear - one big problem is that there really is no open shade or a place with sun at the back. I cannot move the group too far from the ceremony venue, and the rest of the site is either/full of garbage bins/not much of stairs/the ground is tilting/background is construction area..

[dubaiphil]

If you:

a) can't avoid the direct light
b) can step back enough to use the 35mm

I'd use the 35mm - it performs a bit better than the 18-105. There's potentially a fair amount of CA with the 18-105

[blacksheep]

Thank you Phil!
I really don't think I can avoid the direct light - but it maybe overcast. Would this still be a problem? Wouldn't the light diffused enough so that in fact facing to the sun turns out good?

Sorry, may I ask what "CA" is?

[Manfred M]

Sorry, may I ask what "CA" is?

CA = Chromatic aberration. It is those green and magenta fringes you see when you look at your image along edges when viewed at around 100% of image size. This is generally less of an issue with prime lenses than with zooms.