Dawn Reflections

[Brownbear]

An image of the forest and trees at Rice Lake on the North Shore of Vancouver at sunrise. It's a beautiful place and one that I will be revisiting to try photograph on many a day.

f/8 SS 1/25 ISO 100 focal length 10 mm

I would appreciate some advice on the following.

1. Does the mixed lighting work? I'm not sure about the dark shadows on the trees. If not should I try photographing this scene earlier before the light is up, or wait until the trees are fully lit?

2. Does the centered perspective work or might a lower viewpoint placing more emphasis on the reflections and water work better?

3. White Balance

The first image is processed with the WB set at daylight. The scene is quite blue early in the morning, and this was my artistic preference... However I've been advised that my WB is not correct on the 1st image. However it seems to me that early morning scenes are quite blue and suited to a daylight WB? 5500 K

1. WB - Daylight 5500 K



2. WB - Auto 7500 K



3. WB - As photographed 6850 K



Thank you.

[Mike Buckley]

I'm not sure about the dark shadows on the trees.

You seem to hate shadows. In time, you will develop a sense of what you like. I won't even tell you which shadows I prefer because you need to begin developing your own feeling about that and relying less on what others tell you that they like.

2. Does the centered perspective work or might a lower viewpoint placing more emphasis on the reflections and water work better?

Again, your photography has advanced to the point that you need to think in terms of developing a style that you're comfortable with.

3. White Balance...I've been advised that my WB is not correct on the 1st image.

You've been given very bad advice because there is no "correct" white balance; it's an artistic choice. Yet again, you need to develop a sense of your own blah blah blah.

I will mention (though I probably shouldn't at this stage of your artistic development) that in my mind both the moon and its reflection need to be either eliminated or given more space. My vote would be for eliminating it because of its small size.

[DanK]

my two cents:

1. I rather like the mixed lighting.

2. I would try different crops. The centered shoreline doesn't work for me. The sky is featureless, so I would be inclined to crop the top and make the image focus on the reflections.

3. Re WB: there are a lot of ways to answer this. What did the scene look like in real life? Do you want to match that, or are you interested in a different portrayal? You can get a neutral WB by using a gray card, but that may be entirely wrong, as it can remove a color cast that you want to retain.

[Stagecoach]

Hi Christina,

I have to say that I agree with every comment of Mikes.

I would also say that I 100% disagree with Dan's comment and would not consider cropping from the top but would crop the bottom to remove any trace of the blue water.

So whose view on cropping is correct, neither, it comes down to what you prefer.

A couple of early morning mountain low cloud scenes I have just taken have mixed light and I can not make up my mind if I like them or not purely due to this.

Grahame

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Blah. Blah. Blah... I gave you a helpful click even though your being a wee bit difficult!

Indeed, I'm battening down the hatches with the intention of keeping myself locked up with my imagery and post-processing until I develop my sense of style but I came up for air simply because the feedback I received on my WB. And then of course while I was posting this other questions came to mind.

I like the shadows in the WB as photographed image (lighter and softer) but I prefer the blue sky and the colour of the trees in the daylight WB, closer to the real scene and pretty (meaning I know that I like pretty scenes).

Thank you for advising on the moon. Agreed although special it's not the star of the scene, and easy to clone out.

You seem to hate shadows. In time, you will develop a sense of what you like. I won't even tell you which shadows I prefer because you need to begin developing your own feeling about that and relying less on what others tell you that they like.



Again, your photography has advanced to the point that you need to think in terms of developing a style that you're comfortable with.



You've been given very bad advice because there is no "correct" white balance; it's an artistic choice. Yet again, you need to develop a sense of your own blah blah blah.

I will mention (though I probably shouldn't at this stage of your artistic development) that in my mind both the moon and its reflection need to be either eliminated or given more space. My vote would be for eliminating it because of its small size.

[Brownbear]

my two cents:
Hi Dan,

Thank you for advising. Appreciated.

1. It is nice to know that you like the mixed lighting.

2. Thank you for advising on the crops. I'm actually going to be rephotographing this scene frequently, so rather than crop as a post processing exercise, the next time I photograph the scene I will try a lower perspective, and hopefully also visit on a day with some beautiful or stormy clouds.

3. It's early morning during or just before sunrise... The scene around the corner is more in shadow and pre-dawn blue. That vista looks just as it should to me, ie; predawn... The first image looks truer to life but the sky is likely a softer blue. The other two images look to me like later in the day and I like the early morning blue colours.




1. I rather like the mixed lighting.

2. I would try different crops. The centered shoreline doesn't work for me. The sky is featureless, so I would be inclined to crop the top and make the image focus on the reflections.

3. Re WB: there are a lot of ways to answer this. What did the scene look like in real life? Do you want to match that, or are you interested in a different portrayal? You can get a neutral WB by using a gray card, but that may be entirely wrong, as it can remove a color cast that you want to retain.

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

Feeling a wee bit difficult, are we?

I tried the crops by moving the images around in the lytebox, and if I were to crop the image I like the WB as shot, cropped the best from the bottom because the top of the scene is light and airy. So I will try that next time, too.

Thank you for advising, and also for sharing your experience with mixed lighting scenes. Truly appreciated.

Hi Christina,

I have to say that I agree with every comment of Mikes.

I would also say that I 100% disagree with Dan's comment and would not consider cropping from the top but would crop the bottom to remove any trace of the blue water.

So whose view on cropping is correct, neither, it comes down to what you prefer.

A couple of early morning mountain low cloud scenes I have just taken have mixed light and I can not make up my mind if I like them or not purely due to this.

Grahame

[Shadowman]

The mixed lighting works in the first, you can try to bring out a bit more detail if you wish. Regarding WB, your past preferences have been to capture what you saw, no real reason to change your strategy other than to see what options are available and what you find pleasing. I think the angle of view you use depends on what aspects you are trying to capture, if it is the reflection then the angle you used is the best option.

[mknittle]

Hi Christina, nice work. they are all very nice.

[Loose Canon]

I like the shadows in the WB as photographed image (lighter and softer) but I prefer the blue sky and the colour of the trees in the daylight WB, closer to the real scene and pretty (meaning I know that I like pretty scenes).

So why not use the "As Shot" choice and change the WB of the sky and or water in that shot to suit Christina?

[Stagecoach]

Hi again Christina,

Me being awkward

John has just made a very valid comment regarding the angle of view with respect to what you are trying to capture.

So, to expand on my previous comment regarding cropping from the bottom my reasoning behind that was because the area of beautiful green water that is left with the reflection within it to me is the most significant aspect within this image.

Maybe it's something to do with the general advice that landscapes should consist of three areas, fore, mid and background but I'm not one to normally even consider (read that as remember) rules.

Just sitting here, spending time waiting for the rain to stop so I can get out and try and shoot a heron with the new 300mm lens

Grahame

[NorthernFocus]

Hi, Christina. I don't think Mike was being difficult with you. I suspect many of us who have witnessed your (rapid) development over the past year have similar thoughts. I'm not sure that you appreciate how far you've progressed in a very short time. My perception is that you have now learned a lot of the technical stuff so are asking very specific questions. But they are essentially now becoming questions of style asked in technical terms. For example, in these three versions of the same shot, there is no right answer. You have already done a good job with the post processing to maximize the detail, bring out colors, etc. Some people will no doubt advise you to seek "correct" WB. My advice in that regard is DON'T LISTEN. Our eyes don't see corrected WB. We see things lit as they are or corrected to what our mental perception is. One of my own pet peeves is being told to "correct" blue snow in shadows on a sunny day. But the shadows ARE blue. So this one is your choice. Which one looks best or best represents what you see or want others to see.

[ied]

[QUOTE=NorthernFocus;450274]
Our eyes don't see corrected WB. We see things lit as they are or corrected to what our mental perception is.

So true Dan.

[NorthernFocus]

Now that I've said all of that, a few more words about how your camera handles WB and the challenges of dealing with a scene like this.

This scene has mixed lighting with drastically different temperatures of light. The sunlit portions of the trees have very warm/yellow light on them from the low sun. On the other hand, the trees that are still in shadow and the surface of the pond are reflecting very cool/blue light from the clear blue sky. So the only way to truly achieve "correct" WB on the whole scene would be to use masks and apply different WB settings to the sunlit and shaded portions of the image.

Your camera likely picked such a high value(i.e. cool light) setting due to so much blue and shaded foliage. The camera is seeing so much blue so it is trying to correct it and make it warmer. That results in the shade not looking as shady(blue) as you remember it. The "daylight" setting is probably average for this scene if you had to pick one in an attempt to be "correct". But again, it's really up to you to display the scene as you wish.

Sorry that was supposed to all be a single post with the previous one. Somehow while I was still typing it posted half of it without closing the edit window

[FootLoose]

1. Does the mixed lighting work? I'm not sure about the dark shadows on the trees. If not should I try photographing this scene earlier before the light is up, or wait until the trees are fully lit?

Try photographing the scene earlier before the sun is up, then hang around until the trees are fully lit and re-shoot it. Work the scene and then decide which one you prefer.

2. Does the centered perspective work or might a lower viewpoint placing more emphasis on the reflections and water work better?

As before, work the scene. While you are waiting for the sun to fully light the trees, try shooting from a lower viewpoint and see if you like the results.

3. White Balance

Each of the images seems to have been shot at different times of the day - that is the only affect of the different white balances for me. I like the first one because I can relate to it as a scene photographed early in the morning after the sun has risen. But is that important to you?

If your aim is to capture the scene exactly as you saw it, then you are the only person who can judge the accuracy of your results because you were the only person there who can verify its verisimilitude.

Christina, I think you are the only person who can answer the questions you are asking, but they remind me of the adage about the difference between taking a photograph and making a photograph. Lighting, colour, perspective, composition are personal decisions about the final presentation.

[Mike Buckley]

I like the shadows in the WB as photographed image (lighter and softer) but I prefer the blue sky and the colour of the trees in the daylight WB

You can have both. In that situation, I choose the ideal white balance that affects either the largest or most important part of the image. I then adjust the color balance of the rest of the image. In that sense, I think of them as the same with the only difference being that color balance can be adjusted locally whereas white balance affects the entire image.

EDIT: I see that Terry suggested the same thing.

As for being a wee bit difficult, I'm disappointed; I was trying to be very difficult. The stuff about deciding the look of your photography can be a lot more difficult than the other stuff. Not necessarily but certainly possible.

[Loose Canon]

White balance can, to a certain extent, can be adjusted locally. At least in ACR.

[deetheturk]

Christina, I prefer #1 but i'm no expert I also would get rid of the moon as it is too small in the frame

David

[Brownbear]

Thank you to all for sharing and advising. Very helpful and truly appreciated.

John (Shadowman)

I appreciate your sharing your thoughts on the mixed lighting and composition, and my usual post processing strategy. For this image I intended the composition to be centered and I worked very hard to find an angle to fit the very moon in that I will be cloning out.

Thank you to Mark, Irene and David for your comments and advising on WB.

Terry and Mike,

Thank you for sharing a different post-processing idea. I've never even thought of adjusting the WB separately in portions of an image. I will give it a try later this week or this weekend the latest and post a result that I'm happy with. (hopefully)

Grahame

The tree reflections and water are very beautiful and indeed I did photograph some shots like that. Here I just posted one image because I figured that if I could figure out the WB and mixed lighting on one shot - I'll also be able to do so for my other shots. Congrats on your new lens! I just know your heron images will be beautiful!

Dan

Thank you truly for your explanation of the mixed lighting to include mixed WB and colour temperatures in technical terms that I am able to understand. Very helpful and truly appreciated! This will help me immensely the next time around.

With respect to my comment on Mike being a wee bit difficult, I was just feeling humourous... Mike is just a BIG sweet Teddy Bear who has advised me with great patience and wisdom during the past few years, as you and many others have...

Greg

Verisimilitude? That's a mouthful! Thank you for teaching me a new word. (FYI the appearance of being true or real.)

Thank you for taking the time to provide some very thoughtful and helpful advice. I have photographed parts of the lake and the reflections in different light but have yet to do so with just one part of the scene. There are so many images within one scene at this spot.

David...

I will get rid of the moon! Even though it took me about 7 tries to fit it in the scene.

A great BIG thank you to all. Later this week or by this weekend the latest I will post a different edit of this scene, thinking about the WB as I like and accounting for the varying WB within the scene. Then I will be battening down the hatch for a while!

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

As always. Thank you. I will give it a go! (WB and colour balance adjustments)

A wee bit difficult... Truly, you're a sweetheart! However, just in case you have plans to be very difficult, I am going to change my avatar to a Big Brown Bear (fierce looking). Last night I dreamed that a Mother Brown bear and her cub were just outside my home feasting on berries in a bush outside my window. And yes, they let me get real close and photograph them to my hearts content.

Thank you, as always for the great advice and helpful tips.

You can have both. In that situation, I choose the ideal white balance that affects either the largest or most important part of the image. I then adjust the color balance of the rest of the image. In that sense, I think of them as the same with the only difference being that color balance can be adjusted locally whereas white balance affects the entire image.



EDIT: I see that Terry suggested the same thing.

As for being a wee bit difficult, I'm disappointed; I was trying to be very difficult. The stuff about deciding the look of your photography can be a lot more difficult than the other stuff. Not necessarily but certainly possible.