What is a proof sheet?

[vladimir]

You obviously were never around when film was used

36 exposures on 1 8x10

Oh, I was around, I am old , I just never needed proof sheets back then...
Well, I've never needed them - period.
This is the first time.

[loosecanon]

I always work on proof sheets as 50mm x 50mm, or 40mm x 60mm = similar to film medium format.

How many - sort out good ones, if you are looking to sell as you say worth spending some time and money on proofs if that is also what prospective customers are also going to see.

I would also rename all images so it is not obvious they are a selection - so you don't get asked what happened to number 345 (which was in fact of your foot, taken by mistake)

[Manfred M]

One thing I forgot to mention. Electronic proofs are the most common way of providing customers with images for selection.

If the customer wants you to go through the expense of having them printed, the customer should be willing to pay for having them prepared this way.

[ajohnw]

You obviously were never around when film was used



36 exposures on 1 8x10

That looks posh Jeremy. I just used to lay them on the paper, stick a piece of glass over and turn the main light on briefly. However I did dry film with a weight on the end.

John
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[vladimir]

One thing I forgot to mention. Electronic proofs are the most common way of providing customers with images for selection.

If the customer wants you to go through the expense of having them printed, the customer should be willing to pay for having them prepared this way.

Let's assume the customer is willing to pay, despite my perceived status as a volunteer photographer. What would be a fair price to charge a customer for a job that cost me about 7 dollars?.. Plus my time (which is really minimal in this case with automation provided by the LR... I definitely spent more time discussing it here, than actually doing it )?
53 pages (4 images per page) x $0.13 + tax = $7.44

This is a serious question (not a joke ). I have no idea how these things are supposed to be priced.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Vladimir,

53 pages (4 images per page) x $0.13 + tax = $7.44

This is a serious question (not a joke ). I have no idea how these things are supposed to be priced.

This is not a "pro" speaking, but I am self employed (not as a photographer I hasten to add), so I do invoice people.

Some thoughts to factor in to this decision and how you take things forward (to hopefully avoid further tricky situations):

The proofs are for the dance studio manager/owner
The format (electronic vs printed) was apparently not agreed in advance of the shoot, you decided to print(?)
A charge for proofs was not agreed ahead of the cost apparently being incurred

Therefore, I'd suggest you forget about recovering the $7.14, not worth the time, effort and possible bad feeling it might engender if requested now.

Looking ahead:

It seems that you hope to at least recover (further) printing costs on any images supplied to parents
At that stage, you will need to somehow show only the approved images to parents for ordering purposes - IOW you won't be able to re-use the proof sheets (unless they are cut up in to individual shots by then)
Think now about how you will make the final images available for parents
Think now about any charges for supply of image(s)
Think now about how they could be delivered especially if not 4 x 6 prints from Costco

I'm sure a pro could double the length of my list

Anyway, I hope that helps, Dave

[vladimir]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for confirming for me that those $7.44 are not worth talking about. I thought so too.
...although, it would be kinda nice if the advice was "as a rule of thumb - multiply by 100!"
No such rule?
Eh,.. too bad

Now, let me answer point by point.

Hi Vladimir,
This is not a "pro" speaking, but I am self employed (not as a photographer I hasten to add), so I do invoice people.

I don't. Never ever have I invoiced anybody. This is definitely part of my problem.

Some thoughts to factor in to this decision and how you take things forward (to hopefully avoid further tricky situations):
The proofs are for the dance studio manager/owner

Correct

The format (electronic vs printed) was apparently not agreed in advance of the shoot, you decided to print(?)

Incorrect. I was told to print upfront. The manager/owner is a 70+ young lady, who refuses to use computers.

A charge for proofs was not agreed ahead of the cost apparently being incurred

Correct. At the moment I didn't even know what the proof sheet was. What could I possibly know about how much it should cost? But - even back then I guessed correctly, that the price just couldn't be worth arguing about.

Therefore, I'd suggest you forget about recovering the $7.14, not worth the time, effort and possible bad feeling it might engender if requested now.

Thanks for confirming my position

Looking ahead:

It seems that you hope to at least recover (further) printing costs on any images supplied to parents
At that stage, you will need to somehow show only the approved images to parents for ordering purposes - IOW you won't be able to re-use the proof sheets (unless they are cut up in to individual shots by then)

Think now about how you will make the final images available for parents
Think now about any charges for supply of image(s)
Think now about how they could be delivered especially if not 4 x 6 prints from Costco

I'm sure a pro could double the length of my list

Right. The proof sheets are not going to be useful for anything except proofing.
But all the "think now" points are the problem, of course.
Everything that requires thinking is a problem by definition, isn't it?
I think, I'll start asking questions about those points in a new thread, .
They go a little beyond the proof sheets discussion.

Anyway, I hope that helps, Dave

Of course it helps! Thank you very much!

[ajohnw]

A friend of mine was a professional photographer. He would say avoid usable proofs like the plague because people will take them and not come back for more. The reasoning is simple. He has to put a cost on his time and equipment so in real terms as far has he is concerned there is little difference in the cost to him of producing 10 5x4's against 10 10x8's or even 20x16's. This touches on why social photography tends to be sold in "packs" where the customer picks what they are going to end up with before the shots are even taken. Go to a job and take shots and produce 10 5x4's at low cost and there is a high probability that some customers wont come back again. The way round this is to quote for the photography - time and equipment, proofs and additional prints. Packs will work out cheaper as odd as it sounds - less time is involved. Extra prints will still be expensive because of the time element. It might take say an hour to deliver one and then there is the preparation. If people want to be a pro they need to think like this to cover their costs and must ensure they do that what ever the job is. Much of the cost is time and equipment. In some cases there will be a studio to run too. Maybe even some one to answer the phone.

I'd guess this lady wont be happy with a sheet of 35mm sized proof shots. Might accept roll film size but on the other hand might just hope you produce a load of post card sized prints and give them to her.

John
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[Manfred M]

Vladamir - I'm on the same page as Dave on this one. Chalk this up to "lessons learned" and eat the cost. But understand what these costs are, so in the future there won't be any confusion.

The professional photographers that I know all do their proofs on a website. The client is given a password and they can access their images and no one elses. They can certainly share the password with friends and family. The images stay up for a few weeks, and are then removed, really to force the clients into making a decisions on which images to buy over a fairly reasonable time period.

When it comes to pricing photos. I'm not going to help you very much,as I don't make any money on my photography. I rather suspect you are not in the business of losing money, so you should be charging enough to cover your costs and to make a decent profit. I do have a pretty good idea as to how businesses work up costs:

There are three cost components to any business:

1. Your labour; i.e. how much do you want to make, for instance an hourly rate. This should include the time working on the images, time spent in the field taking them and any transport (driving to the client and back, possibly a number of times) and field setup time.

2. Your overhead cost. Wear and tear on your equipment, maintenance, fuel cost for your car (including getting to and from the client plus any driving you are doing to commercial printers, buying supplies etc.) This should be allocated on a per job basis. Note - this is the trickiest cost to calculate and allocate. Business taxes and insurance need to be included somewhere.

3. Material costs - paper and ink, if you print your own or cost of the final prints (including any scrap), albums, packaging that you hand over to the client. Any pass-through taxes should be part of this costs.

Add up all of the costs, and that will be your base cost. Now double it. That gives you a typical retail gross profit of 50%. This is actually a pretty typical markup.

If you have problems caluculating your overhead costs on a per job basis, assume it to be the same as your hourly or per diem costs. You will likely be in the ballpark. All of a sudden, that $7.44 cost is probably going to be closer to $40 or $50 fee.

Next time there you do a job; have this stuff all figured out and written down, so that there are no surprises. As they say 'a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on". Live and learn...

[ajohnw]

Posting proofs on the web is a good idea Manfred. Vladimir should have quoted a figure for actually taking the shots and doing that including all of his costs. Speculative earnings based on future photo work don't always work out so it's best to cover costs up front. That friend of mine also did some school photography for a while - via an agency. Why - because they paid up front and how many were actually sold was their problem not his.

Actually I believe it's possible to post on Flickr and prevent downloads. It's also possible to delete them. Water marking isn't a bad idea either. I'd still make the shots rather small though just as people who sell prints do. This lady it seems has no interest in going near a PC................

Out of interest this wouldn't be the Vladimir of interferometer fame ? Don't think so but wonder.

John
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[IzzieK]

Many old people nowadays are into computers too -- is she just pretending not to know how to and/or if she really do not want to go near a computer perhaps someone can help her. Lacking that, do you have a laptop where you can show her the images taken and choose from there? Just a thought...

[Manfred M]

Speculative earnings based on future photo work don't always work out so it's best to cover costs up front.

Any business plan I have ever reviewed includes what you call "speculative earnings", i.e. the sales plan.

Covering costs up front makes sense in certain cases; for instance, if I need to rent (or buy) a piece of gear for the job. On the other hand, if I intend to buy a higher end product, say a second camera body as a backup, I might look at spreading that cost over a year or two's worth of work.

[vladimir]

I have a "business plan" now too!
I figured out the answers to all the Dave's "think now" questions:

Think now about how you will make the final images available for parents

I just found a print button on the Picasa page, where I normally upload my pictures.
The parents can click that and print away! I'll need to provide the hi-res jpegs for that to work, and I intend to do just that.

Think now about any charges for supply of image(s)

With the above - no charges to me. They print - they pay. I have nothing to do with it.

Think now about how they could be delivered especially if not 4 x 6 prints from Costco

Not from Costco - they'll have to pick one of the offered print services. Not my concern.

Done!

I'll be giving out my work for free? That's exactly right! That's the idea of volunteering, isn't it?
Makes everything so much easier!

Just one other thing I should do - come up with the logo and put it somewhere in the pictures inconspicuously - to protect my bragging rights.

P.S. Who is "the Vladimir of interferometer fame?" Definitely not me, but sounds kind of interesting

[vladimir]

Just to give an idea about the pictures in question - here is one page (out of 53) from the proof sheet printout:

[Manfred M]

The only downside of the putting on the logo is if the printing service blows it and your logo (and your name) is associated with a sub-standard product. This is one of the reasons that the pros I know handle all of their own prints; quality control. If they don't like the quality they won't accept the image from the printer.

[loosecanon]

And what happened to 704 and 705?
This is the question the custommer will ask in their head. Did you make a mistake? Did you miss something as a result? Should I get a better photograspher.
This is why I say renumber - let the customer think they have all shots to choose from, not just a selection.

[ajohnw]

The answer to having prints done by some one else is to find a professional printing service. I would assume they are still about. They certainly were when film was being used as often especially on social stuff it wasn't worth a photographer printing themselves. They offered 2 options machine and hand. That friend of mine bought the machinery they used to handle the chemical and drying aspects of hand printing to speed his own work up and also make producing very large prints easier. Bankruptcy auction.

There is a yahoo group that deals with interferometry especially in relationship to testing telescope mirrors and a Vladimir is often on it.

John
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[Manfred M]

find a professional printing service. I would assume they are still about.

They are around for sure. Even the "non-professional" services; Costco have their printer's ICC profiles available on the web. The quality is far superior to the old film mini-labs, so long as you know how to use them. Their prices are extremely competitive, so long as you are okay with the paper (luster) that they are using.

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/usi...r_profiles.htm


http://www.drycreekphoto.com/icc/index.html

[vladimir]

And what happened to 704 and 705?
This is the question the custommer will ask in their head. Did you make a mistake? Did you miss something as a result? Should I get a better photograspher.
This is why I say renumber - let the customer think they have all shots to choose from, not just a selection.

How do I renumber without loosing track of the original?
I actually make sure to never rename//move/renumber my photos and their derivatives, so it's very easy for me to find them later - no matter how much later.
Is there a way to easily back-reference the new name to the old name?
Is there an automation like that in LR?
Give me the method/flow how to do that, and I'll do it... next time.
This time I'll leave it 'as is' as an experiment - just to see if the question about missing numbers (or changing a photographer because of missing numbers) ever comes up.

[vladimir]

The only downside of the putting on the logo is if the printing service blows it and your logo (and your name) is associated with a sub-standard product. This is one of the reasons that the pros I know handle all of their own prints; quality control. If they don't like the quality they won't accept the image from the printer.

This is an interesting point...
I definitely don't want to spend time quality-controlling every 4x6 print, the parents may choose to order. I am also willing to assume that the technology of 4x6 printing is not going to fail us to the point that it hurts my [non-existent] reputation.
However - it would be nice to be able to 'disallow' printing of larger sizes. E.g. if someone decides to print an A0 size poster - I'd like to control that flow on my own.
So the question is - are there on-line printing places, which I can instruct - up to which size the prints can be ordered by the 3-d party?