Canon Radio Sync Slaves

[rpcrowe]

Canon brought out the Very Expensive 600EX-RT flash which is capable of being either a radio or IR master. That's really nice but, AFAIK, the 600EX-RT is the only unit capable of being a radio synced slave. That means in order to take advantage of the 600EX-RT radio sync capabilities, you need to have at least two of these expensive units.

Canon has always had Master Units (550EX, 580EX and 580EX-ii) which could be used with less expensive units like the 420EX, 430EX and 430EX-ii as slaves. This was quite a savings in both cost and weight,

I have not been keeping up with Canon flash offerings lately. Does Canon have a less expensive radio controlled, slave unit in line with the previous offerings of relatively expensive master and less expensive slave units.

Finally, (I should be able to figure this out myself) can I use the 600EX-RT in IR master mode to trigger the optical slaves of studio strobes? I have a small IR trigger which will do this but I am wondering if the 600EX-RT will accomplish the same thing...

[inkista]

Canon brought out the Very Expensive 600EX-RT flash which is capable of being either a radio or IR master. That's really nice but, AFAIK, the 600EX-RT is the only unit capable of being a radio synced slave. That means in order to take advantage of the 600EX-RT radio sync capabilities, you need to have at least two of these expensive units.

Yup. It's we keep hoping there'll be an -RT version of the 430EXII. Most folks who have moved to the 600EX-RTs could afford multiple units of them.

It's also why Yongnuo's announcement of a YNE3-RX receiver to put studio strobes and the 580EXII and 430EXII into the RT system has been greeted with a lot of interest. Unfortunately it's only listed as compatible with flashes that can be menu-controlled, so the 580EX and 430EX don't look to be fully compatible, just the 580EXII, 430EXII, 320EX, 270EXII, and 600EX-RT (as well as Yongnuo's menu-compatible flashes, like the 565EX and 568EX). And, of course, Yongnuo's own $150 clone of the 600EX-RT (the YN-600EX-RT) has hit the streets, and is getting mixed reviews (there seems to be an issue with battery drain). The Shanny RT-compatible flash is still an unknown.

Does Canon have a less expensive radio controlled, slave unit in line with the previous offerings of relatively expensive master and less expensive slave units.

Nope, not yet.

...can I use the 600EX-RT in IR master mode to trigger the optical slaves of studio strobes?

Yes, if we're talking Canon's wireless eTTL "smart" optical system, but obviously, you won't have the 2012/RT camera/flash features, such as ID codes, Gr mode, shutter release function, or groups D&E. It won't work, though for "dumb" optical slaving, because Canon's wireless scheme uses multiple preflashes, and most dumb slaves can only ignore (at most) a single preflash.

[rpcrowe]

Thanks Kathy for the in-depth answer. I bought the 600EX-RT because I needed to replace my 550EX which had finally died from old age and over use. I really wanted a 580EXII but these were no longer available. I didn't want to get a used 550EX because it would be just as old and likely just as well used as the unit I was replacing. I attempted to purchase a used 580II but, the two the units I purchased on the used market (one from eBay and the second from craigslist) were defective. I decided to bite the bullet and get the 600EX-RT because it was (at the time) the only flash with master capability in the Canon line-up...

There are some things that I really like about the 600EX-RT and one or two things that I don't like as well.

I LIKE...
I like being able to switch to HSS with a single button, However, I really don't know why Canon doesn't just make a unit with permanent HSS capability; since when I have the HSS turned on, it selects HSS or normal sync depending on the shutter speed of the camera. Why not just have HSS on and let the camera decide if it is operational depending on the shutter speed selected?

FUNNY (or sad) STORY: I was at a Canon Flash seminar (at the old Calumet store in Escondido) and the "EXPERT" doing the presentation did not know that when HSS when selected, would revert to standard sync automatically when the shutter speed was at or below the camera maximum sync speed.

I DON'T REALLY CARE FOR...
I don't really like the lever thingy for turning the unit on and off. I like to operate the on-off control with my thumb and find it a bit difficult on the 600EX-RT flash.

I AM AMBIVALENT ABOUT...
Radio control since I don't have and don't plan to get another 600EX-RT unit.

IT WOULD BE NICE...
If Canon had equipped the 7D and 7DII cameras with radio control triggers which would work with the 600EX-RT. The trigger built into these two cameras is O.K. indoors but has problems in some outdoor situations. I most often use the flash outdoors on a Stroboflash camera flip bracket and the built-in trigger on my 7D is chancy at best when trying to trigger the flash mounted 10 inches or so above the camera. I end up using the old reliable Canon Off-Camera Sync cord.

[inkista]

... I attempted to purchase a used 580II but, the two the units I purchased on the used market (one from eBay and the second from craigslist) were defective. ...

That's always a risk. I've run into it enough times that with used/vintage camera gear, I tend to stick with Adorama, B&H, or KEH. To me, the extra cost is worth knowing that the grading/evaluation of the used unit will be reliable and that the return policy is a known deal.

... Why not just have HSS on and let the camera decide if it is operational depending on the shutter speed selected?

Well, when you're at the sync speed, having HSS will rob you of two stops that being out of HSS won't. See: http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync/. There's also the small fact that you may want to use this flash on a Canon film body that can't do HSS, which might make the flash incompatible with that body.

I AM AMBIVALENT ABOUT...
Radio control since I don't have and don't plan to get another 600EX-RT unit.

And, of course, that's why Canon built the ST-E3-RT.

And there's always the Yongnuo $150 YN-600EX-RTs.

IT WOULD BE NICE...
If Canon had equipped the 7D and 7DII cameras with radio control triggers which would work with the 600EX-RT.

At least you're not a 5D/6D user who has to purchase a 90EX in order to have a pop-up flash equivalent and master...

I agree, it would be nice if Canon had a) put RT radio masters in any of their cameras. But, it's not nearly as easy as getting the pop-up flash to blink out command sequences; aside from the RF licensing issues--which get incredibly difficult when you hit international distribution--there's also the fact that you're talking about camera models that have never had wi-fi, GPS, or RF function of any kind in them, and managing to squish in a whole new circuit board and antenna and possibly two if the wi-fi and -RT stuff can't be combined or they'll interfere with each other, since they're both 2.4GHz--well, it's not a huge mystery why they haven't tried to go there yet; b) created RT-compatible triggers so we could retrofit the other EX units and/or studio strobes/manual flashes into the RT system, and c) made Sekonic go back to swappable modules, and created a triggering unit for RT for those meters (rather than locking them to built-in PocketWizard-only units. I love what RadioPopper has done, but it's not like it works with the current generation of meters).

The trigger built into these two cameras is O.K. indoors but has problems in some outdoor situations....

Which is why Canon built RF capability into the 600EX-RT. Optical will always have line-of-sight and range issues when used outside in bright sunlight.

The main problem with moving to the RT system, though, is that you kind of have to upgrade EVERYTHING. You don't get full function or usage unless you have a 2012 or later Canon body, and you have a bunch of the RT gear at the same time. So it's more expensive than just getting a single 600EX-RT.

[loosecanon]

I recently aquired the Yongno YN622C and YNC22C TX untits - cost about £200 for six transcivers and also the TX control unit which gives full options without having to use the camera flash menu.
These units use a radio signal to control the flashes but use the wireless infra red coding of all canon flash units.
So all the canon EX units can be used, as well as some independent units. Iif you are happy to use the camera menu a set of four trancivers costs about £100.

They certainly work well, keeping HSS and second curtain flash options. Even better the TX unit can be used to provide a delay in fllash trigering to enable studio flash to be used with higher syncro speeds. Finally the TX unit can fire the camera shutter with a radio signal, including as I have mentioned in another post the Canon M, via the fllashshoe of cable socket.

With this set I have no need to think about upgrading my kit to Canon's radio control. I even have a macro setup with EX90's set on a bracket either side of the lens - much cheaper than canon's £500 + setup to do the same job.

[inkista]

I recently aquired the Yongno YN622C and YNC22C TX untits - cost about £200 for six transcivers and also the TX control unit which gives full options without having to use the camera flash menu.

I use this system as well. But it does have a number of "missing features" compared with the RT system.

These units use a radio signal to control the flashes but use the wireless infra red coding of all canon flash units.

Actually... from what I can suss out, they're just using the hotshoe protocol, not the wireless near-infrared system. The biggest evidence of this is the fact that 2nd curtain sync can be communicated--which Canon's optical wireless system (and RT system) fails to do. Nikon's CLS can do it, so it's technically feasible. Just not the way Canon's designed their wireless protocols.

The advantages in going over to the RT system are:

1. You never have to remember to bring your triggers along.
2. You never have to remember to bring batteries for your triggers.
3. You never have to remember to bring a remote shutter release along (If you have a 2012 or later camera body)
4. The 600EX-RT has a dot-matrix LCD display which means all the buttons can have context-sensitive "soft" labels. It also has a dedicated button for wireless modes, a recycle beep, and the color of the backlight on the LCD can be changed to indicate master or slave mode, and the custom functions actually have some descriptive text. The overall physical UI of the flash is much more intuitive to use.
5. The RT system can incorporate five groups (A,B,C,D,E; not just A,B,C)
6. Gr mode control is built in (you can really only access this in the 622 system with the dedicated TX unit, or doing some very esoteric settings on the 622s. The main 622 advantage is that you can have Gr mode with pre-2012 Canon bodies)
7. ID Codes. In addition to having 15 radio channels, a four-digit ID code can be used to split up into further discrete channels. Which basically means you have 15,000 channels to choose from. If you're a pro sports shooter at the Olympics you no longer need a custom PocketWizard channel.

Now, granted, you may not need these features. But they're nice to have.

The Yongnuo triggers, like the Phottix Odins, do give you additional function over Canon's system, such as "supersync" (and in the flashes, dumb optical triggers, not to mention if you have a 2012 or later camera body, you can use a YN-622C-TX as a remote shutter release receiver. Without cabling to the shutter release port). But the RT system really did expand the capabilities of wireless flash over radio, and having the Yongnuo triggering system is not the same--even if you go to the YN-600EX-RT and YN-E3-RT Yongnuo gear, which is cloning the Canon gear as best they can. There's no external sensor on Yongnuo's version of the flash, and the backwards compatibility isn't nearly as good, not to mention that battery drain issue.

It's great to see the 3rd party stuff filling in the low-budget end of the gear spectrum--and particularly seeing it fill in the gaps where Canon should have created an RT-compatible trigger for studio strobes. But there are reasons Yongnuo gear is so cheap and reasons why it's not pro-reliable. They're great for hobbyist usage. But it may be worthwhile spending a bit more away from that usage pattern.

[arnaldo]

I have a Canon 5dmarkIII with canon speedlite transmitter ST-E3-RT. I would like to trigger my studio flash with the Yn622c II attached to studio flash. Is it possible? can I sync my ST-E3-RT with the YN622CII? I tried and could do it work!!

[Dave Humphries]

If they are available your side of the pond Richard,

Another option might be a couple of Godox TT685C; as a pair (one master, one slave) or add the Godox X1C RF trigger and the two guns as RF slaves. Based on the GBP prices, I would guess you could get all three for about $250. This is a self contained RF system (clip on trigger boards not required).

Here's a link.

I have the Nikon version and the biggest shortcoming I have found (so far) is that while you can control flash power and modes from the camera, you can't zoom the flash head - I guess they thought you'd set that properly for the umbrella or other light modifier when you had it in your hands.

There also seem to be reports on forums of people failing to upgrade firmware in them, fortunately mine came shipped with the latest software, so I haven't needed to change it. If there is a later version available now, I probably wouldn't bother to even try, not worth the risk of killing something that is currently working.

They are so cheap (compared to Camera OEM speedlites) that I went in to the purchase with the view that if they break, they are disposable. I didn't view the Chinese warranty (which excludes the flash tube!) as being anything more than a slip of paper in the box and not worth a dime.

[inkista]

I have a Canon 5dmarkIII with canon speedlite transmitter ST-E3-RT. I would like to trigger my studio flash with the Yn622c II attached to studio flash. Is it possible? can I sync my ST-E3-RT with the YN622CII? ...

No. It's not possible. The YN-622CII is a completely different triggering system from the Canon RT system. You need to attach the studio strobe to a Yongnuo YN-E3-RX receiver or a Phottix Laso receiver to use your ST-E3-RT as your radio master. Those are the only add-on receivers I know about that work with Canon's RT radio system.

As Dave says, you could also consider giving up the -RT system and swapping to Godox's X1 triggers and lights. It's a nice integrated system, and costs less. But you would have to give up features like ID codes, groups D & E, and possibly Gr. mode, depending on the flashes and triggers you get, and it'd probably be annoying to have to add X1 receivers to the feet of any 600EX-RTs you have, given that they have that built-in RT slave.