Understanding the Manual

[topol]

Reading my Fuji Finepix SL 300 User Manual I find this:

SHUTTER PRIORITY
If the correct exposure can not be achieved at the selected shutter speed, ap-
erture will be displayed in red when the shutter button is pressed halfway.
Adjust shutter speed until the correct exposure can be achieved.

APERTURE PRIORITY
If the correct exposure can not be achieved at the selected aperture, shutter
speed will be displayed in red when the shutter button is pressed halfway.
Adjust aperture until the correct exposure can be achieved.

My bold - isn't this defeating the objective?

If I want say shallow depth of field, but the camera's saying the exposure is wrong, it doesn't seem right for the Manual to say "adjust the aperture".
Similarly, if the shutter speed is set for say a waterfall, but the exposure is wrong, it seems wrong for the Manual to say "adjust the speed".

[DanK]

The camera is telling you that it can't achieve proper exposure with the shutter or aperture setting you have chosen. For example, suppose you use shutter priority and set the shutter for 1/500 to freeze motion. Now suppose that the illumination of the scene would require an aperture of f/1.8, but your maximum aperture (hypothetically--I don't know your camera) is f/4. The camera does not have the ability to open the aperture more to properly expose the image at the shutter speed you set. I don't know whether your camera will allow you to take the picture despite the underexposure.

[chauncey]

Is there not a method for adjusting ISO...SS, aperture, ISO are the three variables in exposure.

[Tringa]

These are warnings.

My understand is that while, for example, in aperture priority the camera is unable to set a shutter speed appropriate to the aperture you have chosen, the camera will tell you, by way of displaying the shutter speed in red. If for example you set the aperture to f1.8 and the camera worked out the required exposure for that aperture was 1/8000s, but the camera's fastest available shutter speed was 1/4000s, then the camera tells you it cannot, at f1.8, achieve the correct exposure.

Although Av lets you chose whatever aperture you want it is not always possible to pair that with a shutter speed that will give you a well exposed shot.

Hope this helps

Dave

[Geoff F]

I suspect, Norm, that most manuals are written for basic users. So a warning that the selected shutter speed is unsuitable makes sense, and the very basic level advice is to choose a different speed.

However, we advanced users (or at least slightly more advanced ) know that it is possible to change something else, like the Iso setting to achieve a desired result. Which would give you the required aperture and shutter speed.

I assume that when shooting in full auto your camera automatically makes these decisions; but when using the semi auto alternatives there has to be a bit of human/machine interaction. So by displaying the questionable settings in red it is really just saying 'Do you wish to continue with this'.

[Tringa]

Oops, others got there before me.

Dave

[topol]

Thanks for the explanations so far, I'm much obliged.

This is what happens......

Indoors the Aperture Priority mode only lets me choose between 3.1 and 8, but checking the Exif data on my pics shows a wide variety of aperture settings.

So being puzzled I took it outside where I could still only choose between two settings but different from inside the house.
Then I found that by playing with zoom I got more choices, but again from only two options.

With no zoom (widest angle) I'm allowed a choice of f3.1 or f8
With about half zoom I'm allowed a choice of f7.1 or f20
That is to say, different focal lengths allow different aperture settings, but only a choice of 2 in each case.

So in this mode (AP), it seems I have to use zoom to achieve a specific aperture setting.

[Manfred M]

No Norm; your manual is 100% correct.

The warning signal comes on to tell you that the camera suggest that the combination of ISO, shutter speed (when shooting aperture priority) and aperture (when shooting shutter priority) will not give you a shot that is free of motion blur from camera shake. All three of these parameters; often referred to as the "exposure triangle" need to be at the appropriate settings to give you a properly exposed shot.

When you are shooting in aperture priority, you set the aperture value and the camera will pick the appropriate shutter speed to get you that shot. If you have set the camera on some form of auto-ISO, than this comes into play as well. If the calculated shutter speed is too low, you will get the warning.

Same type of logic follows for shutter priority, except here you select the shutter speed and the camera will adjust aperture. If your selected shutter speed exceeds that maximim (or minimum) aperture setting available in your lens, you will again get an exposure warning.

If you disagree with your camera, go ahead and press the shutter release and see what it give you. In your example, if you were shooting from a tripod and want motion blur from falling water, you could still pull off the shot, but if you are trying to hand hold, probably not.

[Krawuntzel]

Thanks for the explanations so far, I'm much obliged.
With no zoom (widest angle) I'm allowed a choice of f3.1 or f8
With about half zoom I'm allowed a choice of f7.1 or f20
That is to say, different focal lengths allow different aperture settings,

That is probably the aperture range of your zoom (at "no zoom" 24mm from f3.1, at "half zoom" 300mm only from f7.1 onwards)

but only a choice of 2 in each case.

Really, only 2 choices; not the range between upper and lower number?

So in this mode (AP), it seems I have to use zoom to achieve a specific aperture setting.

I don't think Norm, that you "achieve" a specific aperture setting by zooming; by zooming you choose what you want to be in the frame of your picture, not the depth of field (by choosing the aperture).
So first "zoom" your frame, use "automatic", see what you get, read the numbers (shutter speed, aperture, ISO) of your pictures and then work on the exposure triangle mentioned in Manfreds post.
Manuals to my knowledge never tell you, how you can achieve something you want, they "only" tell you how to operate a machine. The first how, you have to learn.
Erwin

[topol]

Yes, it is only a choice of 2 settings - not a range, and they differ depending on the zoom.

What I was trying to say is that, suppose I'm recommended to use a certain aperture setting, the only way I can set it is by using the zoom.
Seems daft, I know.

Perhaps it may be better to stay with Auto and let the camera do all the work, but that seems a bit pointless to me.
I want to be able to use the settings the camera provides, but my problem seems to be how to do so.

[Manfred M]

Thanks for the explanations so far, I'm much obliged.

This is what happens......

Indoors the Aperture Priority mode only lets me choose between 3.1 and 8, but checking the Exif data on my pics shows a wide variety of aperture settings.

So being puzzled I took it outside where I could still only choose between two settings but different from inside the house.
Then I found that by playing with zoom I got more choices, but again from only two options.

With no zoom (widest angle) I'm allowed a choice of f3.1 or f8
With about half zoom I'm allowed a choice of f7.1 or f20
That is to say, different focal lengths allow different aperture settings, but only a choice of 2 in each case.

So in this mode (AP), it seems I have to use zoom to achieve a specific aperture setting.

I suspect that the limitations you have are a result of shooting with a crossover camera. The target market for the one you have is likely the point & shoot crowd that want a bit "more camera", without having to fuss with things like settings.

We had a crossover camera before we upgraded to a DSLR. The reason for the upgrade; we were getting frustrated by the camera features (or lack of them) that prevented us from getting the shot we wanted.

[xpatUSA]

Norm: what everyone else said but, with all due respect, these two statements seem to be mixed up somehow:

If I want say shallow depth of field, but the camera's saying the exposure is wrong, it doesn't seem right for the Manual to say "adjust the aperture".

Indeed it wouldn't but in this case, if shallow depth of field is the image requirement, the camera setting would be aperture priority and the camera would say "adjust the speed".

Similarly, if the shutter speed is set for say a waterfall, but the exposure is wrong, it seems wrong for the Manual to say "adjust the speed".

Similarly, if freezing or blurring of motion is the image requirement, the camera setting would be shutter priority and the camera would say "adjust the aperture".

See what I mean?

In the case of shooting for DOF, I would take the shot anyway - if the camera permits - and brighten in post.

How about shooting in manual if your camera permits?

[rpcrowe]

If you choose, Programmed "P" exposure control, the camera will select what it deems the best combination for hand held shooting. However (at least with my Canon xxD and 7D cameras) it is easy to run through the entire gamut of aperture/shutter speed combinations with just a twist of the main dial. As an example, if the camera selects 1/100 second @ f/16, you can with the single dial twist adjust that to 1/200 @ f/11, 1/400 @ f/8, 1/800 @ f/5.6 as well as 1/1600 @ f/4 and 1/3200 @ f/2.8 (if your lens has these apertures available. You could also select 1/50 @ f/22 or 1/25 @ f/32 (if the camera has f/32 as an option).

You can also, with a press of the ISO button and a twist of a dial you can work through the gamut of ISO values available on your camera. Doing so in "P" exposure control will keep the correct exposure as the camera sees it.

You can also modify the total exposure by using + or - exposure control...

Finally, you could, if desired select auto exposure bracketing and burst shooting. That way, the camera will give you three bracketed exposures each time the shutter button is pressed and then stop shooting until the next press of the shuter.

If I were going to advise a person who is unfamiliar with photography, how to be assured to bring home correctly exposed vacation pictures. Programmed exposure with AEB would be the way to do that.

[topol]

Taking on board all the comments and suggestion given, I've had a "play" with the various mode settings, and irrespective of whether it's Ap or P the same thing happens - the aperture options change with focal length.
In Manual, irrespective of the shutter speed, the aperture setting behaves in exactly the same way - two options only, which change depending on the focal length.
Guess I'll just have to get used to it

[Shadowman]

With Nikon, at least with my particular model, it will give a subject is too "dark" or "bright", doesn't give you the next step to take; at least on the camera perhaps different in manual.

[jcuknz]

When I read threads like this I realize that another comment I made yesterday [somewhere, possibly on PN ]"All bridge cameras are not equal, and some are more equal than others" is so very true and I am glad that I choose Panasonic way back and have stayed with them. 'Work horses not toys' to misquote Makita
Another of our members suffers from restrictions placed on him by his camera .... f3.1 or f/8 ... URRRGH!

EDIT .. "aperture options change with focal length" This is inevitable except when one has a 'constant' zoom such Pany's FZ200 or the earlier FZ10/20s. To make a more compact lens the designer gives us a lens which ie. is f.5.6 at full zoom but f/3.1 at wide angle.

A constant lens such as the FZ200 with its f/2.8 at any focal length means a bigger and heavier lens and the f/stop is a mathematical result of diameter of the lens and the focal length. So a compact lens with its smaller maximum lens size results in the higher f/stop at telephoto ....f/d focal length/diameter of aperture ....two inch focal length/half-inch diam = f/4
[A simple calculation that I always remember to get my brain thinking right ]

EDIT #2 Sorry Grumpy Diver I'm adding .... as an innitially a film user where when eventually I got a zoom lens one never considered a variable lens and all movie lenses are 'constant' [ you simply cannot have the aperture change as you zoom in on a subject and more recently I wonder at stills workers who have these 'funny' variable aperture lenses ... of course they probably rarely work at max aperture and they do not zoom while taking photos [ except for effect]

[jcuknz]

Yes, it is only a choice of 2 settings - not a range, and they differ depending on the zoom.

What I was trying to say is that, suppose I'm recommended to use a certain aperture setting, the only way I can set it is by using the zoom.
Seems daft, I know.

Perhaps it may be better to stay with Auto and let the camera do all the work, but that seems a bit pointless to me.
I want to be able to use the settings the camera provides, but my problem seems to be how to do so.

I see no lack of professionalism in letting the automatics work for me while on taking half trigger for a shot I monitor what they have chosen to ensure they are appropriate for the situation. Occasionally I work in manual but normally in A mode, Aperture set half way up the range, with ISO set to my prefered rating [ 400 ISO with MFT and 100ISO with bridge cameras ] ... fiddling with settings is a amateur pre-occupation which ensures they probably miss the shot
I believe HCB was notorious/famous for working this way which made life very difficult for his darkroom workers .... today we have excellent editing programmes to bear the brunt.

An after thought next day ... film cameras were wonderful as they didn't have mechanisms to tell us we were giving the wrong exposure and simply took the photo

[dem]

Yes, it is only a choice of 2 settings - not a range, and they differ depending on the zoom.

This is the way with many bridge cameras I'm afraid. Also note that F20 is a "feature" that probably uses an actual aperture of F8 or so but then decreases the exposure by some software manipulation or a physical ND filter. If it was a mechanical aperture with moving blades, you'd see a very blurry picture on a 14M 1/2.3" sensor at F20. So do not use F20 for macro, it will not give you any extra depth of field (DOF).

In fact, it is worth checking if you can see a difference in background blur in the same shot taken at two available aperture settings. If not, forget about the A mode.

Perhaps it may be better to stay with Auto and let the camera do all the work, but that seems a bit pointless to me. I want to be able to use the settings the camera provides, but my problem seems to be how to do so.

Auto or P mode are a good place to start. For moving subjects switch to the S mode to make sure that the shutter speed is high enough to stop motion blur, e.g. ~1/60s for posed portraits and ~1/400s or faster for playing kids.

Plus, you might find it useful to keep the SS faster than about 1/300s at full zoom (720mm ff equivalent?) to reduce camera shake. A tripod or a brick wall would be a better solution for that of course.

You are right about the manual being bit misleading. You do not choose say the S mode because you want to use shutter speed (SS) to adjust the exposure. No, you choose the S mode, to fix the SS where you want it to be and let the camera adjust aperture and possibly auto ISO to get the correct exposure. Then you might find that the SS has to be lowered to avoid high ISO values, but it is going to be your decision to do so not camera's.

Cheers, dem

[topol]

[...] ... fiddling with settings is a amateur pre-occupation which ensures they probably miss the shot [....]

So true, in my case anyway.

A bit of background to this.....
I've had a Kyocera FineCam for over 10 years, but recently very little used. so I decided that was a shame, dug it out and started using it.
Posted a few pics on the Photography board of another Forum I belong to, and some of the comments I was getting referred to trying different settings, which on that model were either not possible or at best restricted.
Hence my decision to get a camera within my budget, that would give me a better range of options. Other criteria were a viewfinder and a lithium battery.

Now, I'm the sort of guy who does RTFM (Read The Flippin' Manual), regardless of whether it's for a coffee maker, vacuum cleaner or indeed a camera - but in this case perhaps I'm placing too much reliance on it?
At least I've learned some of the limitations of my camera, and how to deal with them.

I am indeed grateful for all the comments, and helpful advice I've received so far - so much to consider and try.
Keeps the ole brain active, if nothing else

[mrinmoyvk]

So true, in my case anyway.

A bit of background to this.....
I've had a Kyocera FineCam for over 10 years, but recently very little used. so I decided that was a shame, dug it out and started using it.
Posted a few pics on the Photography board of another Forum I belong to, and some of the comments I was getting referred to trying different settings, which on that model were either not possible or at best restricted.
Hence my decision to get a camera within my budget, that would give me a better range of options. Other criteria were a viewfinder and a lithium battery.

Now, I'm the sort of guy who does RTFM (Read The Flippin' Manual), regardless of whether it's for a coffee maker, vacuum cleaner or indeed a camera - but in this case perhaps I'm placing too much reliance on it?
At least I've learned some of the limitations of my camera, and how to deal with them.

I am indeed grateful for all the comments, and helpful advice I've received so far - so much to consider and try.
Keeps the ole brain active, if nothing else

Reading the manual is a good thing but reading before buying is even better. I am not at all saying that the camera is not good but if you had done that then you might have got some other camera which won't restrict your capabilities.