The usual "which camera should I buy" question

[ionian]

As I have mentioned in other posts, I've had a canon eos1100D for a couple of years now and in recent months I feel that I have somewhat outgrown it as I've started to take my photography a little more seriously. Current frustrations include the metering system, the autofocus system, and the poor ISO performance. It's beginning to feel like it's holding me back - I'm not expecting a new camera to massively improve my pictures, but I would like something I can grow into.

I need an all-purpose camera for stills, but I'm not currently into videography. I have three cheap canon lenses - the 75-300mm (no IS so is a PITA), the 18-55 kit and the nifty fifty.

I'm now in a financial position where I can look at a new camera (selling the old one to help fund it) - I'm mainly considering three at the moment, but I'm open to other suggestions as well:

Canon 70d - It looks to be a great camera and has good reviews, but it's main selling point seems to be video and I'm not sure whether I would get the best out of it being a stills shooter.

Nikon d7200 - The most expensive camera I'm considering, especially as it would mean selling my lenses as well and buying new ones. I've found a reasonably priced deal with the 18 -145 lens and I would add a 50mm f1.8 prime to the shopping list as well. Seems to be the best in my price range for stills, but it means replacing more gear.

Nikon d7100 - as above, I'd need to switch lens systems - this seems to still be a great camera and is cheaper now that the updated model is out

I'd love to get the 7d mkii but it's just too expensive, and while the original 7d is still a good camera it is somewhat dated now.

I'm leaning towards the d7200 but your thoughts would be appreciated.

[FootLoose]

I don't know how things work in your part of the world, Simon, but here retailers go crazy in June with EOFY sales. If English retailers operate similarly, then don't give up on the 7DII yet.

[Manfred M]

Sticking with Canon is going to shorten your learning curve as you will already be reasonably familiar with the menus and layout of the camera. Unless you are planning to replace all of your lenses as well, this will leave you some cash to invest in other gear; speedlights, tripod, etc.

All modern DSLRs are decent video cameras so I would not get at all hung up on the fact that the 70D does good videos. That feature is something that adds virtually nothing to the cost of the camera, as to a large extent, it's mostly using existing functionality + some on-camera software.

[rtbaum]

Let me be the first to suggest that you may want to keep the body and upgrade the lenses. I have always subscribed to the old film axiom that the body is ultimately nothing more than a black box. I would for example give serious consideration to using the cash for a f/4 or f/2.8 70-200 with Image stabilization. Examine what focal length you like to use most frequently and buy accordingly. A sturdy tripod should also be considered.

[Donald]

Let me be the first to suggest that you may want to keep the body and upgrade the lenses. I have always subscribed to the old film axiom that the body is ultimately nothing more than a black box.

I do go along with that to a significant extent. However, there is no doubt that moving up from a 1100D to, say, a 70D will put a lot more tools at your disposal. Also it makes these tools more easy to use if you invest the time and effort in learning all there is to learn about the camera in order to get the best out of it. So, as Randy implies, it is not going to take better pictures whereas, going up in the quality of lens will, all things being equal, produce better images. What moving up in terms of a body will do is open up lots more opportunities for you to be able to make better images by making available a wider spectrum of options.

The 70D is a fine tool. Yes, the 7DMkII is fantastic, but I wouldn't over stretch myself trying to go for the 7DMkii only to deny yourself the opporftunity to then be saving for other accessories, like a better lens, a good tripod, etc.

[ionian]

Thanks all. I have considered investing in glass instead, and the arguments for doing so are strong - if I had even the 1200 or 700d models I would go for that. But the 1100 is so far behind the current curve that I think a new body should be the first port of call. Good glass will follow in due course.

I'm not in love with any of my lenses, with the exception of the f1.8 - but that's cheap to replace. Buying a new body will, essentially, be starting again with more knowledge as the zoom I already have will also be sold (I don't like using it).

I intend to get a ttl flash as well, probably a yongnuo, and have budgeted for that separately. I already have a tripod, it's not the best, but it does what I need at this stage.

Is the learning curve between canon and nikon steep?

Im going to try to get both cameras in my hand at the weekend, see if that influences things.

[tclune]

Thanks all. I have considered investing in glass instead, and the arguments for doing so are strong - if I had even the 1200 or 700d models I would go for that. But the 1100 is so far behind the current curve that I think a new body should be the first port of call. Good glass will follow in due course.

I'm not in love with any of my lenses, with the exception of the f1.8 - but that's cheap to replace. Buying a new body will, essentially, be starting again with more knowledge as the zoom I already have will also be sold (I don't like using it).

Folks don't like to say this out loud because it seems like fan-boy stuff, but the reality is that Canon is a decade behind virtually every other camera manufacturer in sensor technology. Any camera with a Sony or Toshiba sensor will have massively better dynamic range and high ISO capability. There's a reason why it's only Canon shooters who drone on about ETTR. If you are really not happy with the camera's performance, Canon may be the problem more than the specific model you've got. I just got back from a camera holiday at Yellowstone, and one of the other participants just upgraded to the 5Mk II. Her only complaint was that the noise was no better than her previous Canon body. There's a lot to like about Canon, but their stubborn insistence on making their own sensors when they're just no good at it should give anyone pause. Or so ISTM.

[Shadowman]

A refurbished model directly from the manufacturer should be considered also, might save a few bucks. Where you'll get your best warranties are on select lenses; some as long as five years.

[Donald]

Folks don't like to say this out loud because it seems like fan-boy stuff, but the reality is that Canon is a decade behind virtually every other camera manufacturer in sensor technology. Any camera with a Sony or Toshiba sensor will have massively better dynamic range and high ISO capability. There's a reason why it's only Canon shooters who drone on about ETTR. If you are really not happy with the camera's performance, Canon may be the problem more than the specific model you've got. I just got back from a camera holiday at Yellowstone, and one of the other participants just upgraded to the 5Mk II. Her only complaint was that the noise was no better than her previous Canon body. There's a lot to like about Canon, but their stubborn insistence on making their own sensors when they're just no good at it should give anyone pause. Or so ISTM.

Not sure the whole world would agree with you on that one!!!

If someone has JUST upgraded to a 5DMkII, they're a little behind the curve. It's maybe them that's a decade behind, not Canon.

[tclune]

Sorry, that should have been an MkIII. It isn't the most recent thing that could be purchased, but the performance of the sensor is about as good as any in the Canon line.

[rpcrowe]

It is really difficult to help a person on your side of the pond with camera/lens choices because of the vast difference in price between the U.S. market and the U.K. market.

However, let me try to give you and idea what I would do in your case. First, I must admit that I am a Canon shooter; so my comments will be directed at Canon products. This is not because I necessarily consider Canon the best of the best but, because I am familiar only with Canon...

Not knowing what or how you shoot is another limiting factor in imparting any advice.

That said, let me mention some of my personal likes and dislikes - I am also going to restrict my remarks to crop frame cameras:

1. I don't like to use the Canon Rebel family of cameras. This is not because these cameras cannot achieve fine imagery (equipped with good glass, they certainly can) but, because I consider shooting with the xxD or 7D (series) cameras easier and more enjoyable. This mainly due to the two dial system which makes it easier and quicker to modify my shooting parameters. I can make my modifications to the parameters of my 7D cameras while looking through the viewfinder. I don't need to look at a menu.

2. I think that upgrading from the kit lenses (especially the next to junk 75-300mm) will possibly give you a more immediate and noticeable upgrade in imagery. This is especially true if you choose to select a lens with a more moderate focal range, rather than the super-zoom types.

My favorite combination of lenses is the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS and the Canon 70-200mm f/4L IS. I could shoot 90-95% of my imagery (macro, long wildlife and some sports excepted) with these two lenses. However, that is an expensive combination. A less expensive lens combination would be the 17-50mm f/2.8 Tamrom (VC or non VC) and the Tamron 70-300mm f/4-5.6 VC lenses. I am recommending these only because I know (from using my lenses) that the focal lengths would be handy and because they get really good reviews from persons who have used them. I have not personally used either of these two lenses. Some folks like the IQ of the non-VC 17-50mm better then the VC equipped model.

I shoot a lot of my images using flash, either bouncing the flash or using it as a fill. I would want several things in my flash units: accurate TTL exposure, manual capability when needed, tilt and twist capability for bouncing and high speed sync. I shoot much of my outdoor work with fill flash and HSS is pretty mandatory for me since I don't want to be restricted to the max sync speed and the f/stop that speed will require.

I like Canon flashes because I can put the unit on HSS and anytime my shutter speed is at or below 1/250 second, the camera/flash automatically reverts to normal flash synchronization. This may or may not be true for other flash/camera combinations...

I don't care about:

1. a flip LCD since I very seldom shoot using my LCD
and
2. I shoot video with a dedicated video camera so I don't care about the video capability of my DSLR

[AlwaysOnAuto]

Could I make a suggestion?
Why not look for a well cared for used D7000?
You could save some money to invest in lenses that way and still get a camera that is very capable.
Just a thought from the cheap seats out west.

[DanK]

I agree with Donald and Richard. I won't get into the war of the brands, other than to say that it's not the part of this that I would worry about.

In my view, the main advantages of getting out of the Rebel line are the ergonomics and controls. The 70D is a very big step up in this regard; the 7D and 5D3 are another small step.

If I were in your shoes, but on this side of the pond, and if I were sticking with Canon, I would probably buy a Canon refurbished 70D, which costs about $1000 currently and comes with a full one-year guarantee. In my experience, Canon refurbs are like new, other than the fact that they are individually inspected. I recently purchased a 7D (gen 1) refurbished and have been entirely satisfied. With the money saved, I would start investing in glass and a flash. Glass will matter more than the body, as others have said. And I would second the suggestion that you avoid superzooms. They usually entail too many compromises to get high optical quality.

Re which lenses: the difference between some of the bottom-of-the-line lenses and the next step up can be large (particularly in the case of the 75-300, widely considered one of Canon's worst lenses). However, the difference in optical quality going up from the middle to the top of the line is often quite a bit smaller. So, while almost all of my lenses are Ls, that is not what I would recommend if budget is an issue. Instead, I would carefully read reviews for mid-priced competitors in the focal-length ranges you are interested in. For example, a cheap but optically excellent walk-around is the Tamron nonVC 17-50 (although the AF is not up to current standards). I also love the 70-200/f4 IS L that Richard uses, but you might want to consider lenses in that range from tamron and Sigma before deciding whether to lay out the money.

[bugster0121]

The build quality and type L lenses ate why i prefer Canon. The 70d is a very good body. I agree that glass is more important tho. The 5diii is an excellent body but rumor is that 5div at end if the year. If that happens the price of a iii will note than likely drop. Recommend u get better glass at this point but that 70d is a really good crop sensor body.

[MrB]

The usual question, the usual answers, all with the usual assumption - that the only companies making camera gear are Canon and Nikon. As you are effectively intending to start from scratch, at least take a step or two outside the tunnel - you might also see green grass on either side.

Cheers.
Philip

[DanK]

The usual question, the usual answers, all with the usual assumption - that the only companies making camera gear are Canon and Nikon. As you are effectively intending to start from scratch, at least take a step or two outside the tunnel - you might also see green grass on either side.

Cheers.
Philip

good point, but some of us clearly did not make that assumption.

I won't get into the war of the brands, other than to say that it's not the part of this that I would worry about....

and if I were sticking with Canon

which I wrote because he owns Canon now and specifically asked about Canon options.

[inkista]

Okay, let's start with the vital information. What do you shoot? In what specific tasks is the 1100D not working for you? And what's your budget? I'm not sure that the metering system is going to change a whole helluva lot moving up to an XXD. The AF system certainly will (but are you shooting fast-action photography that requires this?) And what do you mean by "poor" ISO performance? Your biggest gain, though, is liable to be the dual-wheel controls.

Generally speaking, when you move up the tiers, you get better UI features, but not necessarily a better sensor--if you're in the same generation of sensor tech. Given that you're thinking of moving up and over to a newer generation, it's probably the right decision, if you can afford it. But the suggestion to consider a refurbished model at lower cost and to also upgrade your glass are key. You have what I dub "the training wheels triple" lenses. And moving lenses first and bodies later tends to make more financial sense, because there's always a hotter, newer, cooler body on the horizon. Camera announcements/releases tend to happen around Feb/Mar and Sept/Oct. How soon do you need this new camera? Can you wait to see if an 80D is going to be out on the market, and what that might do to 70D prices this winter?

I do also think that if you're going to switch to Nikon, do it now, before you've got a lot invested in Canon glass (and none of your lenses are a reason to stay). Switching probably won't be particularly hard, unless you've got the Canon menus hardwired into your head. That the lenses mount the other direction may be a slight confusion, but overall, I was handed a friend's D700, and had no problems using it, though I'm a Canon girl. Just be sure that Nikon has what you need. Nikon glass tends to be much better at the wide end, while Canon glass at the supertelephoto end gives you a few more choices at lower prices. If you don't need a 400mm lens or were thinking about pancake primes, then you'll probably do fine. If you're thinking about wildlife shooting, with Nikon, you're more liable to go with a Sigma lens.

Also understand that Yongnuo gear is more or less reverse-engineered on Canon tech. They do offer Nikon choices, but the functionality, and number of releases is more limited. For example, the YN-568EXII with optical TTL master capability is a Canon-only model. The remote control of flashes via the YN-622 triggers is based on Canon's menu system, so the YN-622N-TX is almost a requirement for Nikon shooters, while it's more optional for Canon shooters. And the -RT gear clones are Canon-only flavor. As cheap 3rd-party flash trigger integration goes, YN and Canon are probably the tightest, and if you swap brands, you won't find as tight an integration. I shoot Panasonic and Canon so I can tell you just how many ways Yongnuo doesn't support non-Canon folks.

I would also support the statement that if you're thinking of a wholesale system switch, that you also consider (even if only briefly) whether sticking with a dSLR is giving you what you need/want out of a camera system. Mirrorless options abound these days. What and how do you shoot? What will fit your usage needs best?

[ionian]

Thanks for all the replies. To answer some of the questions posed:

What do I currently shoot?
Family - portraits, candid, small mobile children.
Nature - details, not really wildlife (no need for a super zoom), landscapes
I'm a member of a club that offers a variety of fun competitions, which helps with learning, so whatever they throw at me.

When do I shoot?
Family gatherings, when out for walks.

What would I like to shoot going forwards?
In addition, I would like to try macro (but not too bothered) and more city street photography, for help with creativity, composition and capturing the moment.
I would like to have particular focus on perfecting portraiture, and candid reportage for events. I have a decent job (otherwise I'd have the wrong hobby!) but would consider starting a small portraiture/reportage business opportunity in the future as a supplement to my income and something I would enjoy. This would be several years down the line but potentially working from home is very appealing with a young family. It's very early days for me (I'm aware) but I haven't enjoyed a hobby like this since I was a child. I am serious about taking it to as a high a level as I can.

I am (as someone mentioned) at a point where I can change systems -be it DSLR or mirrorless (which I haven't ruled out) without taking a big financial hit.

Thanks for the info about yongnuo flash Kathy - as you can see, working with flash is likely to be important for my future so I will research thoroughly.

What's wrong with the 1100d?
No spot metering, makes it very trial and error with backlit subjects; ISO performance that looks like it's straight out of the waste bin of a flour mill at 800 and above; produces smaller images because of the 12mpx camera, no chance for large prints especially if cropping; autofocus can't track objects very well; menu system to change everything wastes valuable time between shots; concerned that upgrading glass on such an old body would just be polishing the proverbial turd.

I am, having done a lot of reading on DSLRs (not enough on mirrorless yet!), strongly leaning towards the Nikon 7xxx series, but there is plenty of time to change my mind. Is it urgent? Well, I've already listed my old gear on eBay so.......... it's clear a new camera is on the horizon in the near-future

I hope this helps with advice - I know this question comes up ALL THE TIME so I hope this helps make specific recommendations to my needs. Sorry for the long post!

Edit: having read this back, I'd like to stress that although doing something I love as a job would be great, it's not a concern at this point with this purchase. It's a pipe dream. I'm still learning every time I go out with the camera, and every time I sit at my computer to process, so I want something that will be as versatile as possible.

[Polar01]

Simon, I had the D7000 which was stolen, however it was backup to my D600. If I was going to get another, as the crop sensor made it very useful for some of my shots, I would look more at the D7100 than the D7200, really not much was added to it to make it worth the extra money. They improved some features but not the meat and potatoes of the camera, from some of my reading you can get a new D7200 body for $1200.00, a refurbished D7100 for $699.95 or a D7000 for $499.95 now those are priced in the United States.

Cheers: Allan

[ionian]

Thanks Allan - I've found a site here in the uk, selling both the 7100 and 7200 with the 18 -140 vr dx lens at very low prices for this side of the pond (I assume they must be white box or imported but will check). I understand that this lens is decent for what it is - not pro glass, but capable, and a reasonable place to start as a walk-around job.

There's £120 between them (that's $185) so that's a big vote for the older model, as I'd get a fast prime lens as well for the same money.

Buying the body only and seriously reading about mid-priced nikon glass is also on my list of things to research tomorrow when I should be working...