Hummingbird images for C&C please...

[Stagecoach]

Hi Izzie,

Some thoughts from me regarding the noise and method.

Just about all your recent previous postings here have been at ISO 3200, no noise of any concern, good exposures and sharp ! So why the noise here? Is it because they have been cropped, were underexposed or your noise treatment in PP has changed, only you will know the answers to those.

Looking at all of these I would suggest you have sufficient DoF at f/9 and could consider opening up more. Even in very bright sun light with a slower larger bird I find most of my shots are around f/6.3 to f/7.1. The wing blur is being caused by speed of their movement and I think some adds to the shot.

If it were me learning how to capture these from scratch my first priority would be to achieve a shot with acceptable noise along with sharpness of the beak and head. I would not worry about freezing wing movement, larger DoFs, or ugly feeder until I could do that.

So I would start like this, in Manual and Auto ISO;

a) Close down one stop from fully open (not sure what that is on your lens).
b) Set speed at 1/1600 (from the above shots this works well).
c) Adjusting a) or b) above will Vary the ISO maintaining the correct exposure and you can even use EC in this mode............. see below

There are different ways you can achieve this, but with any keeping an eye on that ISO to ensure it is within a range that you know is going to give decent results.

If the ISO is constantly at the high end your options are either to open up or a slower speed.
If the ISO is constantly at the low end your options are stopping down for more DoF or freezing more with a faster speed.

Grahame

[Shadowman]

I relied on ACR for my sharpening and after sharpening on Unsharp Mask but I overdid it when I used Nik's sharpening at the end instead...I have to learn how to manage that as this is the first time I had used it. I was I was shortening my workflow. I should had stick to what I know...
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Thanks John...your kind comment gives me a bit of a push to do better...'appreciate it.

The NIK sharpening tool does nothing for my images, perhaps I'm using it incorrectly or perhaps there are some images that do not benefit from the filter.

[bnnrcn]

When it comes to sharpening I always find PS's unsharp mask very useful Isabel

Yes...I was wondering about why the noise...so I went back to my original RAW file and traced it -- the culprit was using the after-sharpening of Nik's. I should had kept to Photoshop's Unsharp Mask -- it is more simpler to use.

Thanks for catching that, Binnur...even the bird shooters will perhaps be disappointed in all of these...

Thanks for passing by and giving me feedback...

[Cantab]

Izzie, were you in single shot mode or machine gun mode (aka high speed....)? Machine gun mode makes a lot of noise (on my Canon) but it might be useful when trying to grab a shot of something that moves as fast as hummingbirds do.

[IzzieK]

I suspected, Izzie, you were shooting in not the best of light conditions and your subsequent posting has confirmed this. As for grain (noise), I have a tendency when photographing birds never to go above 800asa, but quite recently took a number of shots of a woodpecker in poor light using a 150-500 lens. I bit the bullet and upped the rating to 1200 and was amazed at the absence of grain even with a substantial crop. The subject was about 20ft away and I was using a gimbal mounted D7000.

Yes, with a tripod it helps a lot to contain those movement blurs and all that...but with my shots and the weather being too cloudy than usual I really did not have the good day I thought I had...I had mixed results this morning so I will try again in the afternoon...

Thank you for your comments and feedback...I do appreciate learning some more from them...

[IzzieK]

Hi Izzie,

I applaud your first (OK, second) efforts - yes, they're not as good as they might be, but they are a starting point. I also support your initial observation phase.

My observations;
Your globally applied sharpening has grabbed a hold of the noise in the background, but its sounds like you have that in hand.

As I was going through my RAW files, I found it was more than that...unfortunately...

One thing I noticed from the EXIF (of first shot) was that you were shooting Manual exposure, but had +7/3 EC = + 2 and 1/3 stops Exposure Compensation - I am not sure if you were paying any attention to the meter, or setting exposure by review of the histogram (as I often do) - but if you were using the meter, you should be aware that having EC set in Manual (with Auto-ISO off) will bias the meter* and, in this case; encourage you to under expose.

* This is true of Nikon cameras, not Canon (before anyone says).

I had corrected that in my shoot this afternoon too...thank you. I had read your response early this morning after I logged off and I was kicking myself for not being careful. I sort of assumed that I had put my EC back to 1.0 before I put my camera back in my bag...so I can work my way using the Exposure Triangle...as I know I will not have time to fiddle with either the histogram or the metering. I set my metering to Shade because it was the most brighter of all of them on my tests using the bees.

Anyway, if you were using the meter and the shots came out underexposed and had to be increased in PP, this may go some way to explaining why so there is much noise at 800 iso (in addition to the sharpening problem).


The shots of the birds in free flight (4 - 7) are more appealing to me than the ones with the feeder visible, although 3 is very nice. Personally, I don't think it is even worth shooting the side of the feeder with the pole in shot (1 and 2) in future.

I hope those thoughts and observations are helpful, Dave

Actually I remove the feeder via Content Aware...

Thank you Dave for giving more insights on where I got things wrong...now I realized I am not quite ready for prime time yet to call myself a photographer with all the many mistakes I made in this post... but I am cool with that...it is the only way to think from now on as I gather more information on my list of to-do prepping...make sure I cover all the bases first before embarking on the actual shoot.

I truly appreciate your help...thanks again...

[IzzieK]

Hi Izzie,

Some thoughts from me regarding the noise and method.

Just about all your recent previous postings here have been at ISO 3200, no noise of any concern, good exposures and sharp ! So why the noise here? Is it because they have been cropped, were underexposed or your noise treatment in PP has changed, only you will know the answers to those.

Apart from what I had already said before, I gathered more from the other responders like Dave, et. al. ... to add to my prepping before the shoot. It is embarrassing but it is the truth...I neglect some more steps. One of these days, it will be as automatic as the rest from my list are now for me....

Looking at all of these I would suggest you have sufficient DoF at f/9 and could consider opening up more. Even in very bright sun light with a slower larger bird I find most of my shots are around f/6.3 to f/7.1. The wing blur is being caused by speed of their movement and I think some adds to the shot.

Now I know why my first batch today were all trashed...I added more aperture instead of opening up. Darn! I was having a hard time trying to adjust my ISO because I decided not too use the AutoISO and upped my ISO first to 1000 then 1200 then back to AutoISO which insists on 3200...I was at the right position -- about 5 or 6 feet away from the feeder and my focus was on over 450 or 480 to get the whole side of the feeder so I have lesser to clone out...

If it were me learning how to capture these from scratch my first priority would be to achieve a shot with acceptable noise along with sharpness of the beak and head. I would not worry about freezing wing movement, larger DoFs, or ugly feeder until I could do that.

Got ya! I will try to get some more this afternoon at 1/1600 since that is the one that has not much speed and still shows some wing blurs...

So I would start like this, in Manual and Auto ISO;

a) Close down one stop from fully open (not sure what that is on your lens).

6.3 is next after 5.6, then 7.1

b) Set speed at 1/1600 (from the above shots this works well).

Done.

[QUOTE] c) Adjusting a) or b) above will Vary the ISO maintaining the correct exposure and you can even use EC in this mode............. see below

There are different ways you can achieve this, but with any keeping an eye on that ISO to ensure it is within a range that you know is going to give decent results.

If the ISO is constantly at the high end your options are either to open up or a slower speed.

I did noticed the AutoISO was in constant 3200 maybe because of the cloudiness of the lighting...so I decided to get off AutoISO but I was having a hard time getting the SS and/or the Aperture right...I was trying to know what was going wrong and now I found out it must be that I had not returned my EC to 1.0 when I packed my camera in my bag yesterday afternoon...could it be that?

If the ISO is constantly at the low end your options are stopping down for more DoF or freezing more with a faster speed.

Grahame

I will do that...again thanks for the extra help...I will make sure I have everything taken cared of this afternoon if it will not rain...again. 'Appreciate it as always...

[IzzieK]

The NIK sharpening tool does nothing for my images, perhaps I'm using it incorrectly or perhaps there are some images that do not benefit from the filter.

I took out my original RAW file and put everything in default in ACR as if I had not done any correction at all earlier. So after I had set my luminance slider up a bit and luminance detail down a bit from my upped luminance, I went to the basic editing and set my brightness up, highlights down, clarify up but not too much...

Then went inside Photoshop, took care of the Black and White points and these are the results from two of them...




What do you think? Not much noise now...no other editing had been done apart from cropping from scratch and of course not using the Sharpener from Nik's...

I still think I made a mistake on the EC thing...as I explained to Dave and Grahame...I will have to do a reshoot using the ones I learned from this post...I was just too careless...

[IzzieK]

When it comes to sharpening I always find PS's unsharp mask very useful Isabel

Thanks for the extra comments Binnur...I will stick to what I know instead of trying some other stuffs for now until I learned how to break them first...

[IzzieK]

Izzie, were you in single shot mode or machine gun mode (aka high speed....)? Machine gun mode makes a lot of noise (on my Canon) but it might be useful when trying to grab a shot of something that moves as fast as hummingbirds do.

Bruce...appreciate your extra help...no, I was on CL (Continuous Low) shoot hence I have more of the same mistake shoots too...unfortunately. My camera has a Quiet Mode around the same knob but the hummers do not mind that at all...so I chose the CL instead. What I found after I had installed my remote control was that I have more shoots of the same action 3 times even if I pressed the remote button once...I may have to learn how to control my pointer finger...

I have only used machine gun mode with my granchild when I was back home in Oz remote or no remote...as I want to get each and every cutie expression she has to give and show me...

[Shadowman]

I took out my original RAW file and put everything in default in ACR as if I had not done any correction at all earlier. So after I had set my luminance slider up a bit and luminance detail down a bit from my upped luminance, I went to the basic editing and set my brightness up, highlights down, clarify up but not too much...

Then went inside Photoshop, took care of the Black and White points and these are the results from two of them...




What do you think? Not much noise now...no other editing had been done apart from cropping from scratch and of course not using the Sharpener from Nik's...

I still think I made a mistake on the EC thing...as I explained to Dave and Grahame...I will have to do a reshoot using the ones I learned from this post...I was just too careless...

Much better, I would still apply some NR but not enough to lose any detail.

[Dave Humphries]

I did noticed the AutoISO was in constant 3200 maybe because of the cloudiness of the lighting...so I decided to get off AutoISO but I was having a hard time getting the SS and/or the Aperture right...I was trying to know what was going wrong and now I found out it must be that I had not returned my EC to 1.0 when I packed my camera in my bag yesterday afternoon...could it be that?

The consistency of Auto ISO wanting 3200 is very likely because of the "+ 7/3 EC" that was applied (so it wanted to over expose by that much), combined with the maximum iso being set for 3200 in the set up menu - well that's my guess.

BTW, you probably want to set EC to "0", not "1.0", or you may still be over/under exposing unintentionally, but I think that's what you mean.

Actually I remove the feeder via Content Aware...

Good job, I hadn't spotted that

I look forward to the next batch - and don't worry about making mistakes, we all do.

[Stagecoach]

I did noticed the AutoISO was in constant 3200 maybe because of the cloudiness of the lighting...so I decided to get off AutoISO but I was having a hard time getting the SS and/or the Aperture right...I was trying to know what was going wrong and now I found out it must be that I had not returned my EC to 1.0 when I packed my camera in my bag yesterday afternoon...could it be that?

Hi Izzie,

I believe it was exactly that as Dave has explained. It would have thrown you off and caused confusion as to what was happening, we have all done it at some time

It would be nice if camera manufactures provided a menu option to 'reset EC to zero' at camera turn off

In the meantime, if you see that little EC +/- box showing in the viewfinder when you are in Manual and Auto ISO a quick press of the EC button will show the EC value at least on my D800.

Grahame

[IzzieK]

Much better, I would still apply some NR but not enough to lose any detail.

Thanks John, I will do that...

[IzzieK]

The consistency of Auto ISO wanting 3200 is very likely because of the "+ 7/3 EC" that was applied (so it wanted to over expose by that much), combined with the maximum iso being set for 3200 in the set up menu - well that's my guess.

Guess you are right...

BTW, you probably want to set EC to "0", not "1.0", or you may still be over/under exposing unintentionally, but I think that's what you mean.

Yep...0.0 it was a typo...twice a typo...I set it up yesterday but the birdies did not come in the arvo and I have to feed my dogs and the hubby, so I will do a reshoot this morning as soon as it gets brighter...

Good job, I hadn't spotted that

I look forward to the next batch - and don't worry about making mistakes, we all do.

I know but mine has been constant...or should I say, consistent..???

BTW, thanks for editing my last response to you...I meant to do it this morning but I found you already did it...thanks again for all your help...

[IzzieK]

Hi Izzie,

I believe it was exactly that as Dave has explained. It would have thrown you off and caused confusion as to what was happening, we have all done it at some time

Yup! I think so too! Thanks again, to Dave...

It would be nice if camera manufactures provided a menu option to 'reset EC to zero' at camera turn off

In the meantime, if you see that little EC +/- box showing in the viewfinder when you are in Manual and Auto ISO a quick press of the EC button will show the EC value at least on my D800.

Grahame

Yes mine does too --- for only a few extra in the menu, your D800 and my camera has almost the same functions...not too much difference. I still have to learn how to use mine for Group Shots...and getting back to topic, yes I noticed that but did not relate as I was trying the Exposure Triangle when I am already deep in shooting...like as if the scene in front of me will not happen again...I will be more careful next time...

I am learning I wish in feet by feet length at a time but I feel two steps forward, one step back when I realized this last mistake...thanks again for the extra input...'appreciate it...

[IzzieK]

Dear CiC members who had helped me with this post...

I was able to implement all the changes that I did via the advice of some members here particularly Grahame, John and John and Dave and others and this afternoon I embarked on using those advices...

1) no autoISO
2) manual setting
3) right my EC
4) get closer (about 4 feet from the feeder)
5) use my remote (not really advisable if wanting to do a BIF shot...but OK with still shots
6)...I cannot remember some other else I had to feed in my camera for the prepping...

Here is one still shot out of 30 I did -- all the others are also very clear, as clear as this one and I had cropped the originals to JPG at 1600...as you can see here it shows the changes that I had achieved...now all I have to do is wake up early in the morning to get an HIF (Hummingbird in Flight) and I will done with these... yeah...like I believe me...



When I am in a funk like this, I do not think I will give up on the HIF easily...anyway, I just came back to thank everyone responsible for helping achieve this shot and many more from where it came from now...I truly appreciate all your help...I will name my next bird DT (for Donald Trump)

[Cantab]

Izzie, congratulations on a really good shot!

[Stagecoach]

Well there's certainly improvement there Izzie and good to hear you got lots of consistent results.

What we can clearly see here is that you have nailed focus and hence sharpness on it's beak, the majority of its head and throat as well which is ideal considering the limited DoF that's available at f/7.1.

So the question that arises now is how can you improve on this, if that's what you want to do?

It would be easy if there was more light and you had the simple options of stopping down for more DoF or lowering ISO for less noise but lets assume there's not.

If you wanted to increase DoF without upping the ISO whilst maintaining the same speed you could consider using your D300 with its smaller sensor for these subjects. This image was taken at a subject distance of 2.11 mtr (yesterdays were at 4.47 mtr) but by using the D300 you could achieve the same framing shooting from a farther distance and the result would have a greater DoF.

Data, for the shot framed the same with both cameras;

Full Frame D800 : lens at 380mm FL, shooting distance 2.11 mtr gives a DoF of 1.08 cm
Crop Frame D300 : lens at 380mm FL, shooting distance 3.38 mtr gives a DoF of 1.89 cm

I'm not saying that this is the way you should go but it's an example of advantages that can be gained when you are in a position like this of pushing things towards the boundaries

Grahame

[Rebel]

Missed this one, cool shots Izzie.

I love the last one where the bird is flying away, but definitely a bit noisy!