Shooting dancer in theater freezing motion with flash

[teigas]

I have been able to borrow the house my county shows cinema and show on for an evening. It got a stage and dark curtains in the back. The stage is also black.
I want to try to shoot a dance friend and freeze motion, i also might want to experiment with dragging the shutter. We where also allowed to try and bring in a little smoke (will se if that goes well).

I am thinking about somthing like this:
http://balletnews.co.uk/wp-content/u...9GAL-ET004.jpg

I am only used to shooting people in still life in studio, so i am wondering if the stage is dark, will it be possible to freeze the dancer in a jump with studio strobes like elinchrom brx 500 watt http://www.elinchrom.com/compacts/brx.html

I guess they only sync up to 1/250 in shutter speed? Would that be enought to freeze motion inside? I could also borrow some http://www.elinchrom.com/compacts/one.html d lite rx one 400watt strobes. And I have two Nikon Sb900 speedlites that supports high speed sync.

So I would loved some advice about what gear i should try, and maybe where to place the lights? If smoke i now I have to backlight it.

I could just go and try offcorse but if sombody have done it before and have some advice it would be nice.
Should i use softboxes? Umberella or just shoot them with no diffusion?
Hope somebody have some tips to share.

[Manfred M]

Given the dark conditions you are planning to shoot in, I rather doubt that shutter speed will matter at all. Your flash duration will be in order of 1/1000th sec, which should be more than sufficient to freeze the dancer. As long as there is little or no ambient light, your shot won't be affected.

If you have the Elinchrom; and I'd probably forget about the SB900 units. I'd work with it and a large softbox to keep the light spill down, to start with. I'd set it up high and in parallel to the path of the dancer to start with. I've never shot with smoke in this type of scene and am pretty sure it is not going to add much, so I'd get the shot I was after nailed before getting any smoke on the set.

[teigas]

Given the dark conditions you are planning to shoot in, I rather doubt that shutter speed will matter at all. Your flash duration will be in order of 1/1000th sec, which should be more than sufficient to freeze the dancer. As long as there is little or no ambient light, your shot won't be affected.

If you have the Elinchrom; and I'd probably forget about the SB900 units. I'd work with it and a large softbox to keep the light spill down, to start with. I'd set it up high and in parallel to the path of the dancer to start with. I've never shot with smoke in this type of scene and am pretty sure it is not going to add much, so I'd get the shot I was after nailed before getting any smoke on the set.

Thanks for the advice. When you say the path of the dancer do you mean like straight on like the camera is facing or more like in from behind her sideways or backwards? Would you only use one light or add some more?

[Manfred M]

When I came up with the suggestion, I was looking at how the light seems to be falling on the dancer in the link you put in your question. The light seems to be coming from roughly where the photographer is shooting from (think of on camera flash), but the top surfaces of the dancer are being hit, rather the bottom ones. There is also a bit of light spill on the floor, so the light is also up high,above the dancer, pointing down at an angle. The left side of the image is a bit darker than the right, so I think that the light is to the photographer's right. I think that is likely a mistake and the photographer missed his timing a bit.

I only see a single light in this shot. Why do you think you need more than one light?

[teigas]

Google a ltitle more after finding out that sync speed would work, and saw people using several , but that was also for the smoke.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTsAqAPnB0

But I could start with one.. But maybe try one right and left, and one a little to the side 45 like in the video. Guess i have to just set it up and figure out what the differente light contribute to the scene, if it not works with one..

[Manfred M]

You will note that the lighting in the video is completely different than the lighting in the still image, and you can see that from the images that he is not using all of the lights all of the time, and when he does, he also uses the lights at different settings. I'm not 100% positive, but I suspect he is using different lighting setups than the one he shows in his diagram, at times. I can't hear what he is saying as I can't get any sound on the video.

This is some rather advanced lighting and based on your questions and comments, I'm not quite sure that you have a lot of experience in using this type of lighting, so my advice to you would be to keep things simple and not try anything particularly complex, as this gets more difficult to do and setup. You will note that he has grids on all of his softboxes to control light spill.

I almost always use a flash meter to set up a multiple light setup, and set up each light individually, before combining the output. He is also using a rather odd triggering mechanism; using the Speedlights on clamps to tigger the optical slaves on two of the studio lights. I personally would just use radio triggers on the whole lot, but suspect he doesn't have enough to do this. How are you planning to trigger your lights?

He uses the two Speedlights on light stands to back-light the smoke; these are not pushing out a lot of light and he has them set up quite far back so that they do not affect the lighting of the dancers.

He is using two medium softboxes for his side light setup and a medium octabox when he front lights.

This type of lighting setup is not trivial and I suspect he has invested some considerable setup, planning and testing to get this shoot done. I'm a bit surprised he is not shooting tethered, but then, he is only showing the shots that turned out.

[Manfred M]

Google a ltitle more after finding out that sync speed would work, and saw people using several , but that was also for the smoke.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTsAqAPnB0

But I could start with one.. But maybe try one right and left, and one a little to the side 45 like in the video. Guess i have to just set it up and figure out what the differente light contribute to the scene, if it not works with one..

While the shoot in the video is a bit different and he does some fairly funky lighting, normally the "rule" is that there in one main light (also referred to as the key light). It will be the primary light and is often the brightest light source in the shot. Other lights are either fill lights, used to soften shadows and these generally contribute a lot less light to the scene. Accent lights are used to accentuate different parts of the scene and are not always used. An example of an accent light would be the light shone on someone's hair, to create separation from a dark background. If the whole (or part) of the body needs to be separated from the background, the light can be placed behind the subject and this is sometimes referred to as rim lighting or a kicker light.

None of this standard lighting applies to the scene in the video. Here the photographer is not going for a natural look, but is trying to show of the shape and in some cases the muscle structure of the dancers.

My view on lighting is to use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid), and to use as few lights as I can get away with. I will often shoot portraits with a single light and use a white reflector as a fill light or sometimes I will use a two light setup and use a key light and the second light as a fill light in place of the reflector. I use the two light setup when I want more control and am not working with an assistant to hold the reflector,

[William W]

Firstly, some technical points concerning the image to which you linked. I believe that I am familiar with the Photographer and his work:

1. The Stage Lighting Set:

I am very confident that the image was NOT illuminated by Flash, rather that it was illuminated by a Typical Stage Lighting Set. The Lighting Set appears to have TWO Follow Spots of the Dancer as KEY LIGHTS and a Typical Standard FRONT Stage LIGHTING BANK, comprising: BLUE and RED and WHITE. There appears a Typical Standard BACK CURTAIN Stage Lighting Bank, comprising mainly DARK BLUE and maybe some UV Light.

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2. The Shot:

I am very confident that the shot was made with: Canon EOS 1Ds MkII and likely using one of three lenses, the most likely being either: EF 70 to 200 F2.8 L USM; or EF 70 to 200 F/2.8 L IS USM and the least likely being: EF 135 F/2.8SF.

I am very confident that the shot was pulled at: F/2.8 @ 1/320s @ ISO1250, Manual Mode.

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3. Technique Employed:

I am very confident that the Photographer used the shooting technique whereby the TIMING of the SHUTTER RELEASE is at the MOMENT of LEAST SUBJECT MOTION.

I am reasonably confident that the Photographer was either Hand Held or used a Monopod and that PANNING was employed and probably the Photographer made the shot using SINGLE SHOT Drive Mode.

I am confident that the Photographer knew the Lighting Set; the EV; and the Choreography, before the Shot was pulled.

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Concerning what you want to do:

I have been able to borrow the house my county shows cinema and show on for an evening. It got a stage and dark curtains in the back. The stage is also black. I want to try to shoot a dance friend and freeze motion, i also might want to experiment with dragging the shutter. We where also allowed to try and bring in a little smoke (will se if that goes well).

If the stage is ‘black’ (and that means the stage is very VERY low light), then there is no need or possibility to ‘drag the shutter’. Dragging the shutter requires the AMBIENT LIGHT to be of a certain EV (light meter reading) which is much more than a “Black Stage”.

Also it would be senseless to 'drag the shutter' if the back of the stage comprised dark curtains – there would be no need to reveal those curtain under the exposure of the Ambient Light, even if there was enough Ambient Light to illuminate them.

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I am only used to shooting people in still life in studio, so i am wondering if the stage is dark, will it be possible to freeze the dancer in a jump with studio strobes like elinchrom brx 500 watt http://www.elinchrom.com/compacts/brx.html

Yes it will be possible to freeze the motion of SOME dance movements using that Flash Head.

But it is NOT fait accompli that you will ALWAYS arrest ALL of the Dancer’s MOTION simply because you use Flash: there are occasions where the FLASH DURATION is too long to arrest the motion of very quick dance movements.

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I guess they only sync up to 1/250 in shutter speed? Would that be enough to freeze motion inside? I could also borrow some http://www.elinchrom.com/compacts/one.html d lite rx one 400watt strobes.

Firstly - the flash sync speed is primarily determined by the CAMERA, not the Flash Unit.

What camera are you using?

Secondly – It is usual that the Maximum Flash Sync Speed of a Camera is for when that camera is used with a DEDICATED Flash Unit (usually a ‘speedlite’ type Hot Shoe Unit and NOT when that camera is used with Studio Flash Heads such as the Elinchrom Units.

When using a Studio Flash Head with (for example) a DSLR, the cameras indicated Max. Flash Sync is usually always erroneous and a SLOWER Shutter Speed usually must be employed.

Thirdly - if using Flash in its normal mode (i.e. NOT HSS), then it usually always the Flash Duration which freezes the SUBJECT MOTION - it is very VERY VERY rare that the Shutter Speed will be the determinate for Freezing Motion in this case.

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. . . after finding out that sync speed would work . . .

What does this mean? What is the source of this information and more importantly, what is your camera?

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And I have two Nikon Sb900 speedlites that supports high speed sync.

Do NOT use High Speed Sync for this task.

HSS will rob you of about the equivalent of TWO STOPS of flash power upon the implementation of HSS, perhaps more power loss, depending upon how fast you push the Shutter Speed.

The Flash emitted from a Flash Unit which is HSS Mode will NOT, of itself, freeze the SUBJECT MOTION.

To freeze the SUBJECT MOTION when the Flash is in HSS, you need to have an adequately fast enough SHUTTER SPEED – wherein is the problem – the faster is the Shutter Speed, the less is the Flash Power.

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IF you choose to use FLASH, then, if you are not skilled and experienced in the use of Flash - then - as already mentioned, keep it simple and I also suggest that you begin by using only one Flash Head.

WW

[Loose Canon]

I can’t say I have ever shot ballet dancers so I wouldn’t know if x-sync (1/200-1/250th) would be a fast enough shutter to stop their motion. I certainly wouldn’t count on it and would give some thought to what needs to happen if its not.

If the shutter alone at x-sync isn’t fast enough to stop the motion then freezing the action with flash is the next consideration. But, to completely freeze the action with a flash pop, and with no blur, ambient light must have no affect on the frame. Ambient does not have to be completely absent but needs to be low enough that if you take a frame without firing the lights you get a black frame. There is some blur in the shot you linked to. Forget HSS for stopping motion unless it needs to be added to existing ambient in order to get a faster shutter speed. It is just another form of continuous light and will not stop any action by itself like a short duration flash pop. Just some things to be aware of.

Obviously the dancer would have difficulty in a completely dark environment as would you trying to frame a shot so there has to be some kind of ambient. The brighter the ambient the more prominent the blur. This is a good place to have modeling lights on the strobes so I would definitely use the Elinchroms for this reason (among others).

Conversely, if you want to drag the shutter in conjunction with a flash pop you will need enough ambient to affect the frame and get that motion blur. Here it gets a little tricky. You could (and probably will) still get blur with the pop and for the same reasons mentioned above. With a first curtain pop the flash fires at the beginning of the exposure then the exposure continues for the set shutter speed, allowing blur through the entire shutter opening including on the flash pop. So you will get a blurred part of the motion trail that is brightly lit (flash pop) and a less brightly lit continuation of the blur trail. This rather than a blur trail with a motion-stopped, frozen part of the image, which I’m guessing is what you are wanting. So this would be a good opportunity for the speed lights if they are capable of a second curtain firing. With second curtain the pop occurs as the exposure is ended thereby freezing action/ending exposure. You would get a motion trail at the beginning of the exposure and the exposure ending with a motion stopped image of the dancer.

Still could get some cool effects but just some more theory to be aware of.

Here are a couple of examples of a second curtain firing/slow shutter. I would think this is the effect you are looking for.





If your camera is capable of multiple exposure, this would be a fun situation to give that a whirl (using ambient light only).

I would suggest using the lowest power level that you can get away with on the flash(es). The lower the power, the shorter the flash duration, the more stopping potential.

Good luck, have fun, and post your results!

[Loose Canon]

Sorry Bill! Must’ve been writing/being distracted while you were posting!

Probably should have saved myself some time, read your post and abstained!

[William W]

Probably should have saved myself some time, read your post and abstained!

Well the OP should be very glad that you did not abstain because you have provided good information generally and especially about the technical and safety considerations regarding attempting to dance in low level light to near darkness.

Also the point about Second Curtain Sync is important.

If the shutter alone at x-sync isn’t fast enough to stop the motion then freezing the action with flash is the next consideration. But, to completely freeze the action with a flash pop, and with no blur, ambient light must have no affect on the frame. Ambient does not have to be completely absent but needs to be low enough that if you take a frame without firing the lights you get a black frame. There is some blur in the shot you linked to.

I expect that it is apparent to you now that if my analysis of the image is correct then the blur in the image is because Flash was not used.

WW

[William W]

I have just received correspondence asking me if I made the image which appears in the link of the original post. The correspondent seemed to think I probably made the image because I knew so much detail about it.

I thought it would be clear that I did not make the image because I stated: "I believed that I am familiar with the Photographer and his work".

If one person has made an assumption it is my image, then others might also.

If it were my image, then I would have stated that as a clear fact at the outset.

For absolute clarity now: I did not make that image.

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More details:

The Subject of the Image is Vanessa Zahorian who has been a member of the San Francisco Ballet for reasonable period of time. I am reasonably sure she is a Principal of that Ballet Company now.

The Photographer is Eric Tomasson, who was / is the resident Photographer for San Francisco Ballet.

I happen to be familiar with both these Artists’ work and have been privileged to watch Vanessa perform, and I’ve probably met Tomasson, but at the time of that meeting I did not know him by name. I am also quite certain that I have seen that image before as it is a reasonably common image in the Ballet circles and publications.

I attained the technical details of the Camera and the Exposure by extracting the EXIF data from the image (Tomasson has copyright embedded in EXIF and that fact confirmed my suspicion that it was indeed Vanessa and also that I had seen that particular image before)

All the other technical details & commentary on the image and all the general comments and advice to the OP in my post #8 are my educated opinions based mainly upon:

> my experience shooting dance, stage and theatre, and shooting Live Ballet, particularly
> my knowledge and experience of Stage Lighting
> my knowledge and study of Tomasson’s work
> my knowledge and experience of forensic interrogation of images, film and video

WW