Need settings advise for low light cheer competitions

[Rob Douglas]

Hello all, I need some guidance from the sports and action guys if you may. I am mostly a landscape and still life photographer but dabble in action shots at my nephews adult league hockey games, Local indoor bike/skate park, and most important (and of coarse the one I need help with) my 14 year old daughter's cheer competitions. The lighting at the hockey and indoor park is great and I like the quality of my shots there, It's the cheer that's throwing me off. Some of the venues are well lite and I get great pics but the ones with dim lighting and or dark backdrops are killing me. I shoot with a Canon 1Ds MK III and a 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM. When I shoot the hockey, indoor park, and well lite cheer comps, my settings that work well are: AV mode if lighting is inconsistent and M if it is consistent, ISO 1600, f/2.8 In AI servo and high speed continuous. I mostly use the high speed continuous mode to double tap at the cheer comps due to the professionals there with the strobes. I figure the chances of not being blown out by a strobe are better if I double tap, otherwise I am not a spray and pray kind of guy. I get high enough shutter speeds at those setting to freeze the action and at ISO 1600 noise is easily controlled. My problem is the settings at the low light venues and the low, noisy quality images I'm getting. The low light venues are pretty consistently light so I shoot in M at 1/250, ISO 3200, f/2.8 in AI servo and high speed continuous. These shots are usually under exposed by about 1 stop and very noisy. I tried 1/125 but couldn't get the action frozen well. What am I doing wrong? Should I not shoot in AI servo and try to time the shots better? I do find that AI servo helps if I'm just following my daughter and no one else because I stay locked on her but it does seem to be a bit of a hindrance if I try to move around in the group.

[Manfred M]

I think you have answered your own question Rob. There is a reason the pros are shooting with flash.

[Rob Douglas]

Yeah, I guess I'll have to live with a bit of noise to get close enough on the exposure to be able to correct it in Lightroom or Photoshop. They are mostly shared with family online so the noise isn't as big an issue as if I was trying to print posters lol. It's mostly for my enjoyment to have something to do at the comps all day and enjoy the day with my daughter. I always buy a few shots when they are a big enough event that there is a photography company there, 1. to support them, and 2. because their pics are better than mine lol. I guess it's good to know I'm doing everything right with what I have to work with. Thanks Manfred.

[pnodrog]

You mentioned at the low light venue you tend to shot at 1/250 ISO 3200 f2.8 and they tend to be under exposed by a stop. This under exposure will probably produce more noise than moving up to ISO 6400. I suggest you experiment with higher ISO. (or order a Nikon D5 )

[rpcrowe]

"I mostly use the high speed continuous mode to double tap at the cheer comps due to the professionals there with the strobes."

Are they using camera mounted strobes or are they using set banks of strobes.

If camera mounted or bracketed strobes, why don't you consider supplementing the light with a strobe or two. There are brackets which mount two or more strobes or you could use a radio controlled slave and have an assistant hold it for fill light.

Or something like this,,,
http://flashhavoc.com/flashpoint-rov...rl-600-review/

[Rob Douglas]

I love my full frame 1Ds mark III and for what I do primarily it's a beast. I shoot mostly for fine art, still life, landscape, and architecture. I actually just recently got interested in action/sports when my nephew and daughter asked me to shoot their games and comps. I really don't have the extra cash to invest in another body or I'd grab a 1D mk IV just for the action and sports shooting. Maybe a swap of the 1Ds mk III for a 1D mk IV? Only problem I can see is the mp and image size difference when it comes to large prints. Most of what I print is 11x17 & 20x30 and occasionally 30x40 :/

[Rob Douglas]

"I mostly use the high speed continuous mode to double tap at the cheer comps due to the professionals there with the strobes."

Are they using camera mounted strobes or are they using set banks of strobes.

If camera mounted or bracketed strobes, why don't you consider supplementing the light with a strobe or two. There are brackets which mount two or more strobes or you could use a radio controlled slave and have an assistant hold it for fill light.

Or something like this,,,
http://flashhavoc.com/flashpoint-rov...rl-600-review/

At all the comps that have photography companies hired I see light towers with Alienbees at the two front corners so I'm sure I would attract a lot of unwanted attention with my own strobe lights and stands or Speedlite at those venues. I'm not sure if at my distance from the mat a Speedlite would even be effective, or allowed.

[Manfred M]

Those Alien Bees are pushing out up to about 10x the amount of light that your Speedlite is. That should tell you something as well..

[wilgk]

Also maybe consider the end use of he images.
I do this sort of work & its best to use the highest ISO available as that noise hides in the shadows & is worse if you have to up the exposure in post processing.
If the images are for onscreen or small print sz, even at high ISO with noise reduction in LR then USM is Photoshop, they should come up ok.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Rob,

You haven't said whether you are shooting RAW or jpg (unless I missed it).

If I were you, I'd;
a) shoot RAW
b) up the ISO to avoid underexposure
c) use a third party Noise Reducer such as Neat Image, which I find much better than the filters built in to LR or PS. (i.e. Neat Image can retain a lot of fine detail while still reducing noise, whereas (I find) LR/ACR/PS reduces the noise and the fine detail together.
d) If you're downsizing for web use, do that before any sharpening
e) Sharpen in PS with USM (UnSharp Mask). Use a fine Radius (e.g. 0.3 or 0.4 px) and be restrained with Amount (say somewhere 50 - 100%) and use Threshold carefully to avoid sharpening the noise (e.g. 0 for a noise free, fine art image, but rising to single figures for noisier images; 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, etc.)

If you shoot jpg, that will definitely reduce fine detail along with noise (this is done automatically at higher ISOs).
Also, if you under expose jpg and bring it up in PP, that's the worst possible combination, because the jpg is already sharpened, so you'll bring up sharpened noise.
At least if you shoot RAW (as you may be), you get the chance to deal with the noise before applying ANY sharpening.

Cheers, Dave

[Rob Douglas]

Thanks for the tips Dave. I forgot to mention I do shoot in RAW (only way to shoot IMO) I will check into Neat Image as well. Would I reduce noise in neat image then import to LR or PS once noise is filtered or should noise be last? Thanks again for the help. I am debating as to whether to swap my 1Ds mk III for a 1D mk IV now. Trying to see if the trade off of -5mp and smaller image size would be worth the much higher ISO capability:/

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Rob,

I have not tried using Neat Image standalone (it is possible) although I'm not sure if it would accept RAW files (e.g. .cr2 or .nef)

I don't use LR, so I import in to ACR, do the basic image processing; white balance, white and black points, all lens corrections, etc., then open in PS, where I have Neat Image set up as a Plug in, so it is then available in the list of filters, which I apply before doing any other work necessary, including cropping. This latter suggested because Neat Image needs an area of 'blank' wall (or similar) to calculate a Noise Profile from and if you crop before NR, you might have removed it from the image.

You can try it free for 30 days I believe - I think now have the Pro Home version, so I can use it on 16 bit files in PS, I think the cheapest options are 8 bit only, which suited me in early days, but I upgraded as my IQ needs increased. My relationship with Neat Image is as a (satisfied) paying customer, over the years, the odd times I have e-mailed for support, they have been efficient.

Cheers, Dave

[Rob Douglas]

Thank you Again Dave. I find myself using CS6 more of late than LR so as a plugin in PS will work out great. I really appreciate your help. I'm finding it hard to bring myself to give up my 1Ds mk III so I think I'm going to have to make the best of it at her comps since that is not my primary focus in photography. Maybe tax return might yield enough for another body :/

[Manfred M]

Rob - if you have or are thinking about plugins, Dfine, which comes as part of the Nik package is also an excellent noise reduction tool. You don't need the "blank wall" that Dave describes and it is a pretty good performer in automatic mode. I tend to go to manual and select the area that I want analysed for noise.

[Rob Douglas]

Thank you. Always good to have options. I will look into that as well.

[Rob Douglas]

I checked out a few different noise reduction plugings for PS including the suggested Dfine and Neat Image and it seams like Topaz Denoise worked best for me with the smoothest image and best retention to detail. What do you guys think?
Original only converted to jpeg


Topaz Denoise plugin with +1.50 exposure in PS CS6

[rpcrowe]

At all the comps that have photography companies hired I see light towers with Alienbees at the two front corners so I'm sure I would attract a lot of unwanted attention with my own strobe lights and stands or Speedlite at those venues. I'm not sure if at my distance from the mat a Speedlite would even be effective, or allowed.

Just a thought! Obviously, you have considered this...

I realize that when one's child or friend is involved that the dynamics are different, but I never bother to shoot a sports event unless I have a photo pass to the sidelines. I usually don't consider it worth shooting from the grandstand. However, when there are pro photographers present; it is very difficult to obtain permission to shoot from a decent location. AND... I also realize why one would want to document athletes in which you have a special interest...

[Shadowman]

I checked out a few different noise reduction plugings for PS including the suggested Dfine and Neat Image and it seams like Topaz Denoise worked best for me with the smoothest image and best retention to detail. What do you guys think?
Original only converted to jpeg


Topaz Denoise plugin with +1.50 exposure in PS CS6

Nice recovery, how did the black clothing look, it's hard to tell at this small size? Also, I like the speaker head guy in the back row.

[wilgk]

A good result, I reckon, well done!

[Rob Douglas]

Just a thought! Obviously, you have considered this...

I realize that when one's child or friend is involved that the dynamics are different, but I never bother to shoot a sports event unless I have a photo pass to the sidelines. I usually don't consider it worth shooting from the grandstand. However, when there are pro photographers present; it is very difficult to obtain permission to shoot from a decent location. AND... I also realize why one would want to document athletes in which you have a special interest...

she is on two teams and her first team was the first of the day to go on so I was able to sneak in at the end of the judges table on the floor and got great shots because I was close and had the bright white tops of the walls and ceilings giving more light, plus I was close. Her 2nd team was on much later in the day and a lot of people were crowding the area so they had everyone pushed back and I couldn't get back to that spot so I shot from halfway up the bleachers. Just high enough up to not get the judges heads in my shots.