D7000 as flash commander, using non-Nikon flash

[Dave Humphries]

Hi, Dave.

I like how you broke down the whole process into its variables and being methodical about obtaining the right timing and exposure. With my digital camera, it's all too easy (and ultimately more time consuming) to just tweak something, expose, look at the image, and repeat. A little more method could go a long way.

Hi Bruce,

After posting the above, I looked through my HDD for a scan of one of the photos that I know I have 'somewhere', but couldn't locate it

The aim was to shoot a "milk drop crown", something like this (not mine, or I'd have shown it here).

Trying to initiate a milk drip and press shutter at same time, in the hope they coincide at the right time is just far too random to be viable with film (or even digital, if you value your sanity, I suggest).

I know; let's open the shutter, make a drip, trigger the flash, then close the shutter.
Hmm, a few problems there ...

I will need to do this in the complete dark because I don't want ambient light exposing the film/sensor while I'm doing the dripping business.
So the first challenge is ensuring the drips always land in the middle of the saucer.

I had a saucer of milk and directly above it, mounted on a structure of some Heath Robinson fabrication, were an "eye dropper" ("pipette" is the technical name I think) also filled with a little milk and also a photo beam sensor thing which I connected to my trigger delay box (simplified example of a circuit). This lot was obviously all arranged to align vertically so that a drip of milk from the pipette broke the beam (some 3 inches below) as it fell (a further 18 inches) to the middle of the saucer.

The flash gun (off camera) was also mounted and aimed at the saucer, the camera was on a tripod and similarly aimed, pre-focused and aperture set as flash distance and Guide Number calculations determined necessary for the film speed (ISO) - shutter speed isn't relevant of course. No doubt I made some exposure adjustments after reviewing the first film developed.

The whole lot set up adjacent to the room light switch so that from a comfortable and defined seated position, I could:

Turn off the room light
Open the camera shutter
Make a drip by squeezing the pipette bulb
(Flash triggers)
Close camera shutter
Turn on room light
Advance film to next frame without disturbing aim or focus of camera

Repeat as necessary ...

You get an idea of what you have captured by observing the flash illuminated scene (think disco strobe)

Different depths of milk in saucer will give different crowns, but there's always some variability anyway, so you have to shoot plenty of frames.

Does that paint a better picture in your mind of what I built and why?

If not, this page I found shows how it might be done nowadays. The construction made is vastly different to mine, but all the key elements are the same - I'm fairly certain I also used a 555 timer chip for the delay. There are delay trigger boxes commercially available to fire the flash if you're not in to DIY electronic projects.

Cheers, Dave

PS
Knowing me, I may still have some/all the kit (from the 1970's) in my attic, but there's a lot of boxes up there and I'm sorry, but I haven't reached the point of wanting to look for it (yet).

PPS
I did find an old 'stroboscopic' example I took, although it is a catalogue of errors and problems, but this post is already far too long! Ask me if this interests you - it is one of those shots that "could have been so much better if only" to learn from.

[Loose Canon]

Wow Dave!

I applaud your ingenuity but that very build/testing procedure is what would test my sanity! Well, if there is any left these days! Even if I had the knowledge to build such a trigger, which I don’t!

I have seen a few of these drip contraptions and they look pretty cool and as you say have some “repeatability”.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding something here but you don’t have to shoot in a totally dark studio when using flash exclusively. In fact I never do. All you need is to have less existing ambient (ceiling lights, etc.) than will show up on the exposure at the particular shutter speed chosen. Which is usually max sync or slightly below. So you set your shutter speed, take a shot without firing flash, and if you get a totally dark frame you are good to go and no ambient light will affect the exposure when you add the flash to the mix.

If I misunderstood your post I apologize Dave but I think this is an important point for newer flash users. Certainly to forward understanding how flash/exposure in the studio works. I think Bill (William W) offered up some numbers on this at one time but one doesn’t have to get so involved with actual metering. There is a simpler way by just using the “dark frame” technique and you don’t have to stumble around in a pitch black studio.

[brucehughw]

Hi, Manfred.

Thanks very much for sharing the image and all the knowledge/advice regarding flash photography. In every paragraph you cover some useful concept. I'll get into flash photography slowly and purchase when I know better what I want. Lucky for me I have an extended loan of a decent flash. I do like the Einstein flash, but will hold off for the present.

In the image you included, it looks like you used first curtain flash, illuminating the closer car and the passenger, and then the open shutter lets the car lights make the trails forward. Is that indeed the case?

Thanks again, Bruce

[Manfred M]

In the image you included, it looks like you used first curtain flash, illuminating the closer car and the passenger, and then the open shutter lets the car lights make the trails forward. Is that indeed the case?

Correct. Exposure was 1/10th sec with the camera on a tripod. As the car was driving through an intersection, I took quite a few shots trying to get the car into the right position when the flash fired and then to give the light trail.

[brucehughw]

I second Terry's "Wow, Dave"! That's a very thorough explanation of how you captured falling droplets.

I actually am into DIY electronics and already have a working circuit. I included a potentiometer in the circuit to vary the delay between the beam breaking and the flash firing. What got me started on this thread was the slowish Alien Bee flash. No need to look for old stroboscopic photos -- I've got ample material to work with through your posts and others' posts. I look forward to trying things out, soon.

Thanks for all the details regarding your apparatus and for sharing the links re the new ways of doing it.

Bruce

[Dave Humphries]

Maybe I’m misunderstanding something here but you don’t have to shoot in a totally dark studio when using flash exclusively. In fact I never do. All you need is to have less existing ambient (ceiling lights, etc.) than will show up on the exposure at the particular shutter speed chosen. Which is usually max sync or slightly below. So you set your shutter speed, take a shot without firing flash, and if you get a totally dark frame you are good to go and no ambient light will affect the exposure when you add the flash to the mix.

Hi Terry,

I was in the dark totally, because back in the 1970's camera shutters were purely mechanical affairs, and the B setting on mine was obtained by pressing and clamping 'in' the shutter button via a cable release, then releasing it later.

I had to work in almost complete dark (seated to avoid accidents moving about) because; with my rudimentary set up, the timing of a squeeze on pipette and the drop starting to fall, was too variable to attempt it 'timed' to a fixed shutter speed - hence the procedure outlined above.

With a more reliable drop generator (I note a small syringe was used in the article I linked), electronically triggered shutters, et al, things should be much easier nowadays.

I do get where you're coming from with the 'dark frame without flash fired', but in film days, with my unreliably timed manual dripper, that wasn't a risk I wanted to take.

Now I may be misunderstanding something Terry; if you are shooting yours using the camera's sync speed, how do you ensure coincidence between the key moment of action and the shutter+flash exposure?
Or is it 'trial and error' because with digital, the 'film is cheap' and results instantaneous?

Thanks, Dave

[Loose Canon]

Its pretty much hit and miss Dave!

I work the timing, use a wireless shutter release, and shoot tethered. I’ve considered using such devices as the Triggertrap, etc. but I get pretty good results on my own if I concentrate on the timing to try to take some of the “randomness” out of the equation. Of course, I usually have a number of “throwaways” after the shoot!

[Loose Canon]

So Dave? What are you looking to do once you have decided on a gear choice if I may ask?

I’m guessing you have some cool things in mind!

[Dave Humphries]

So Dave? What are you looking to do once you have decided on a gear choice if I may ask?

I’m guessing you have some cool things in mind!

I'm still at the "analysis paralysis" stage at the moment, gimme a chance mate!


I want one that'll do everything (reliably), plus be an expandable system, so I can add guns for better portrait lighting later. Something easy to use, with HSS for daylight fill, i-TTL too for the early days, but going manual doesn't scare me.

I definitely want to try RF triggering a flash near a bird perch outdoors, with me shooting from the house or a hide/blind/car - to get away from the lack of UK light that otherwise forces high ISO and/or blurred birds. That distance requirement probably excludes optical triggering and the 433 MHz RF systems and suggests the 2.4 GHz variety is the way to go - as I understand it.

Ideally, the 2.4G RF might be built in to the gun(s) to save having too many separate boxes, many of which require batteries, plus a smart commander box on camera hot shoe.

I'd also like it to have the strobe/repeat feature so I can try those effects again - and basically have as much fun as you do shooting other stuff

Also, I want good manufacturer support (firmware updates), so I'm reading manuals on-line to be sure I understand how things really work and when they aren't enough, YouTube is helpful with reviews (some of dubious quality), although most impart some useful information, just seeing people manhandle them, etc. Did I mention analysis paralysis?

Oh, and I'd like to buy from Amazon UK, or a reputable UK dealer, in case I'm not happy and wish to return an item or get a replacement without loads of (e.g. e-Bay) hassle and delays.

I'm not sure there is any system that satisfies all my requirements at the moment, but when I'm closer to a selection and have a short list, I'll start a thread and be looking to people like your good self for advice and to answer questions.

Cheers, Dave

[Loose Canon]

Hokay Brother!

I was just curious if you had any specific subject matter in mind and what it might be if so! No worries!

Thank you for the response.

[inkista]

Since HSS and i-TTL are on the wishlist, have you looked at Godox Wistros? the AD360II and AD600 sound like they might be close to what you're asking for, and the Godox triggers are earning a lot of praise on PoTN's lighting forum. They also work in concert with their speedlights.

You could also look at Phottix's Mitros+ speedlight and the Indra, but that's more expensive, and they don't have the barebulb flash or battery pack options Godox does.

OTOH, Phottix's Odin/Strato triggers seem to be becoming an industry standard, as in Sekonic just announced a 478 with built-in Phottix receiver (they previously only had PocketWizard built-in receivers, but now have added Phottix and Elinchrome versions. We all really wish they'd go back to radio modules and publish the specs so all the triggering companies out there could roll their own, like RadioPopper did, but as that's probably less money for Sekonic, we can only dream.)

[Dave Humphries]

Since HSS and i-TTL are on the wishlist, have you looked at Godox Wistros? the AD360II and AD600 sound like they might be close to what you're asking for, and the Godox triggers are earning a lot of praise on PoTN's lighting forum. They also work in concert with their speedlights.

You could also look at Phottix's Mitros+ speedlight and the Indra, but that's more expensive, and they don't have the barebulb flash or battery pack options Godox does.

OTOH, Phottix's Odin/Strato triggers seem to be becoming an industry standard, as in Sekonic just announced a 478 with built-in Phottix receiver (they previously only had PocketWizard built-in receivers, but now have added Phottix and Elinchrome versions. We all really wish they'd go back to radio modules and publish the specs so all the triggering companies out there could roll their own, like RadioPopper did, but as that's probably less money for Sekonic, we can only dream.)

Hi Kathy,

Godox is currently top of the list as a 'manufacturer' *, but for the Speedlights; the TT685N - and possibly later the TT600N for dumb/manual operation as backgrounds and kickers, etc. Plus the X1N trigger.

* I use the word 'manufacturer' in inverted commas because the same speedlights are often also available badged as Neewer.

To be honest, I wasn't really considering anything as powerful/pricey/weighty as the AD360 II, but it does at least demonstrate the Godox 'system' is broad, should my needs extend in future.

Thanks for your reply, Dave

[Manfred M]

Kathy - I do have the Witstro 360 and would not put it on this list, simply because of the additional costs due to the battery and associated hardware. If one needs portability, why not, but if one is working in a studio-like setting, why pay a premium for equipment you do not need?

Don't get me wrong, the works well and the main reason I bought it was it provides me a conveniently sized and powered portable solution. I have also recently read that the FT-16 radio trigger I have does not support HSS and I should have bought a different one (got to check that out, as I have not used HSS in any of my work so far). Also, I can confirm that the build quality is excellent, definitely better than what I have seen from Nikon (and Canon).

Added note: I just had a look at the Godox site an noticed that they have now introduced two new models (one for Canon and one for Nikon) with built in 2.4GHz wireless. They have also introduced a 600 W-s model. Unfortunately, the t.1 / t.5 data is not given anywhere for any of the units, so far as I can tell.

http://www.godox.com/EN/index.html

Addendum: I have now tested the FT-16 radio trigger with the HSS option on the Wistro 360 and can confirm that it DOES NOT WORK.

[brucehughw]

Hi,

Last night I was playing around with my setup, and the electronics and flash were all working well (promising for finally getting to some photography). Using Terry's dancing toothpicks as inspiration, I thought I'd like to add some adjustable, static (non-flash) illumination, so that I can get both the movement of something and the freezing thereof (flash). Two questions come to mind: (1) can the static illumination be as simple as a hardware store metal shade with an adjustable light? (2) what do I attach to my camera's hot shoe so that I can place the flash 0.5 m or so away from the camera? Dave H. mentioned the Nikon AS-15 earlier in this thread, and that could probably just fire the flash. Is there a device that could control the flash and get the iTTL capability of the flash, even when it's not connected directly to the camera's hot shoe? Or to keep this cheap, should I just go with the AS-15 (lent by nice neighbor) and proceed with that?

Thanks, Bruce

[Manfred M]

Bruce - are you shooting the Alien Bees or have you picked up an SB-700?

Unless you are using a Nikon CLS compatible flash, you will not be able to use iTTL.

The other complication that you are adding to the mix is lights of different colour temperatures. Your flash runs at around 6500K (daylight) and whatever other light source you are going to use will have its own colour temperature. You can filter the light to get the colour temperatures fairly close, for instance I will use a CTO (Colour Temperature Orange) gel in front of my flash when shooting tungsten to get the colour temperatures of the light sources close. It you go to fluorescent (unless you get the expensive photographic ones), you could be all over the place with colour temperature.

If you are shooting an SB-700, look up Commander Mode in your camera manual. You can use the pop-up flash to remotely control and trigger off camera flash (but unless you flag it, the pop up will add light to the image).

[brucehughw]

Hi , Manfred.

My generous, friendly photographer neighbor has lent me his SB-700, so I'm using that. Re color temperature and difference between flash and other light sources -- yes, I thought of that, too. My neighbor said he has some tungstens that he hasn't used in about five years, and that I can use those too . So it sounds like I might need the CTO gel (although, who knows, it could be kind of neat to see the frozen part of an image at a different colour -- we'll see). Thanks for the tip regarding the Commander Mode. I looked up the "wireless mode" for the flash, and they had these complicated setups with many flashes. I didn't know about the Commander Mode.

thanks again,

Bruce

Bruce - are you shooting the Alien Bees or have you picked up an SB-700?

Unless you are using a Nikon CLS compatible flash, you will not be able to use iTTL.

The other complication that you are adding to the mix is lights of different colour temperatures. Your flash runs at around 6500K (daylight) and whatever other light source you are going to use will have its own colour temperature. You can filter the light to get the colour temperatures fairly close, for instance I will use a CTO (Colour Temperature Orange) gel in front of my flash when shooting tungsten to get the colour temperatures of the light sources close. It you go to fluorescent (unless you get the expensive photographic ones), you could be all over the place with colour temperature.

If you are shooting an SB-700, look up Commander Mode in your camera manual. You can use the pop-up flash to remotely control and trigger off camera flash (but unless you flag it, the pop up will add light to the image).

[Manfred M]

Check with your photographer neighbour - he may have some gels. My SB-900 actually came with gels and a gel holder as part of the package. I'm not sure what the SB-700 does, but suspect it does not as the SB-600 did not either.

If not, try the mixed lighting - you should certainly experiment with the mixed lighting as well as with filters. The large photo retailers like B&H and Adorama stock them. I use the B&H ones for my studio lights and Rosco puts out small flash sized ones. None of these options are going to cost a lot of money.

[Loose Canon]

Hi Bruce,

...I thought I'd like to add some adjustable, static (non-flash) illumination, so that I can get both the movement of something and the freezing thereof (flash). Two questions come to mind: (1) can the static illumination be as simple as a hardware store metal shade with an adjustable light? (2) what do I attach to my camera's hot shoe so that I can place the flash 0.5 m or so away from the camera?

I simply used the cheapie hardware store metal shade. I used (I think) 5000 or 5500K spiral Daylight bulbs (somewhere in that area) and didn’t have any hugely noticeable differences as I recall. My Canon flashes are around 5000-5500K I probably did a little adjusting in post if I didn’t like it, but it wasn’t much for sure. Also your flash will probably have some differences (and probably not hugely noticeable) within itself depending on which output levels you use.

Also I used manual power output on the flash, which I always do in the studio. Once you get the flash output level dialed in you won't need Nikon's version of ETTL for subsequent shots anyway until you decide to change the lighting arrangement. Then you can just dial in a new manual setting to your liking.

Since I don’t shoot Nikon I’ll leave brand-specific questions to the Nikon gurus, but a simple sync cable should fire your flash manually.

Here is what you might expect from a Dance using a color gel on the flash…



Just consider yourself warned: this stuff can be very habit-forming!

Edit: I might add Bruce that the Dance may (hopefully will because that gets the coolest motion trails) involve that toothpick spinning wildly. It may be a very fast motion you need to stop.

[Manfred M]

Terry - I just checked the specs on the Einsteins - they are nominally running at 5600K, so getting lighting that is in the 5000K - 5500K range, that is darn close to being a match (close is good enough).

Bruce - I just checked the Nikon website and the SB-700 does come with a filter pack.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/spee...b-700/spec.htm

I can't (easily) see what colour temperature you get out of the SB-700.

Just as another comment; I agree with Terry. In a studio setting (i.e. anywhere you want repeatable results), set the Speedlight to manual. I find i-TTL is okay for "run & gun" shooting, but if you want consistency, shoot on manual.

[brucehughw]

Terry and Manfred,

thanks for all the advice! I hope to soon post something showing my take in the freeze-motion and extended-shutter-freeze-motion genres . They may not have the pure black backgrounds just yet (Terry, another amazing image with the purple toothpick), but I'll have something to show and build from there.

Bruce