Goal: Sell Fine Art Prints - Initial questions to find my direction

[FlyingSquirrel]

I'm just getting started with a goal of selling fine art prints. I was hoping some experienced and generous souls could offer their advice, tips, or a "roadmap" that I should use to get to those goals.

I apologize for the ensuing wall of text, but I feel it's the only way to accurately reflect what I want to do, thereby getting the best advice. I've done my best to make it skimmable by way of concise bullet points.

To help the process, here are some clarifying points about my goals:

GOAL:

- prints of my images that are high-quality, archival, professional

- printing can be tweaked for each photo for correct color

- high level of quality control, and consistency for prints of each photo

- at some point: limited edition prints, matting, framing

IMPORTANT NOTES:

- identity = individual fine art photographer

- brand = quality over quantity, personal touch, individual service.

- not interested in services that don’t allow the attention to detail, QC

- not interested in impression of cheap, mainstream, stock

- not interested in marketplace selling (multiple photographers on a site)

WHERE I’M STARTING FROM:

- Little knowledge of high-quality printing, materials, services, sources

- I currently do not print my work

- I don't have a business (yet)

ADVICE NEEDED ON PRINTING:

Based on info noted above:

- Best printing method(s) to use

- Printing companies / sources that would work with me as described (if there are any!)

- Anything relevant specifically to the printing process, sources, ways to sell and fulfill orders, etc

My suspicion is that my options are:

1. printing and shipping everything myself (expensive, time-consuming, requires much knowledge)

2. working with a local print shop

3. working with a smaller online print shop that specializes in custom printing


As usual, I truly appreciate everyone's time and assistance.
Your generosity, expertise, and friendship, are why I return to CiC time and again.

[NorthernFocus]

Matthew, You're pursuing a market that has likely the highest "resistance to entry" of any for a photographer. For any given genre there are a handful of well known/widely recognized "fine art" photographers. And you can pick any one of them at random, compare their work with photos posted on forums like this, and you'll find dozens, if not hundreds of photographers who IMO do "better" work. The key to that statement is the IMO. Because my opinion or yours or anyone else's here clearly doesn't matter. The only opinions that matter are those of the clients/customers who buy the photos. And unfortunately, for many of the people who can afford to and are interested in purchasing "fine art" prints, who shot it is as or more important than the content of the image.

Which gets me to my point. In order to overcome the "barrier to entry", you need to spend as much if not more time marketing than anything else. And until you reach a point of being able to make a living with photography I assume you have limited time. That being the case, getting yourself involved (and investing capital) in printing IMO is not a good use of resources. My advice is to find a lab that you can (cost effectively) work with, either locally or on-line, and stick with them. That's one box ticked and you can move on to the more difficult aspects of achieving your goals.

In my experience (which is very limited) the size of the lab doesn't really matter. You may be surprised to find some of the larger outfits have excellent technical support staff who are willing to spend time with you until you are getting predictable results (which is what you really need). Interesting aspect of this digital world. A tech geek is a tech geek. They don't really care about marketing. So once you get to those guys they don't care how big of an account you are for the company. It's just a technical problem for them to solve.

Unfortunately I can't offer much advice on the marketing aspect of things. If I could I'd already be making a living at it myself. In which case I'd likely not advise anyway in order to maintain that whole barrier to entry thingy. The one thing I do know is that marketing requires "beating the streets" and getting in front of people.

I really hope you get there. You clearly have the passion and IMO are producing images worthy of "fine art". I'd love to be travelling through Seattle some day and see one of you images hanging up there beside Art Wolfe's so I could say "I knew him when...."

[dennybeall]

I totally agree with Dan but if I was going to take a shot at it anyway I'd want to see if my work could get positive reactions from the general public. Either a gallery showing or even a booth at a local arts and crafts show. I'd pick some of my best work and print and frame the best 20 shots. Put a price on them that's high with the express purpose of getting opinions and judging interest, not selling.

[Mike Buckley]

I completely agree with Dan about the need to spend relatively enormous amounts of time doing the marketing. I don't know this from personal experience except that everything I learned from my career in sales supports the importance of spending more time at the business side of your goal than the photographic side. My thinking about that also comes from everything I have read by people who claim to have a successful business selling prints.

Hopefully you're also asking people who have been successful over a long period of time at consistently selling fine art prints. For the same reason that you probably would not ask an amateur baseball player how to sustain a career in America's major league baseball, you probably would not ask photographers who have not established a successful business selling fine art prints about your goal. I would not be surprised to learn that nobody posting messages here at CiC is qualified to give you great insight about how to accomplish your goal.

[Manfred M]

Matthew - sorry to burst your bubble, but even the well established wildlife photographers are having trouble making a go of it. There are too many people trying to get into the business and the market to support them is simply not there. Too many people with too many cameras willing to work for a song is not a good business model.

Let me give you an example of a couple of wildlife photographers I know personally.

http://www.jdavidandrews.com/Home.html

Dave Andrews is a nationally / internationally known wildlife photographer, but he has been struggling for at least the last 10 years. He used to get contracts from commercial clients and was being paid to fly all over the country and in some cases the world to photography wildlife. He truly was a 100% full-time wildlife photographer. His business was on a downward slope and when the 2008 recession hit, the business disappeared. In previous economic downturns, he rode things out, but things never came back after 2008. I first met Dave in 2010, when he was teaching a wildlife photography course at the local community college, to help make ends meet.


Stephen Stephen (yes, that really is his name) is someone I met taking a composition class last year (he was taking the class too). He has retired on a good pension and loves travel and wildlife and would like nothing better than to sell a few of his images to partially defray the cost of the trips he would take anyways. As a former government executive, he has great contacts with some groups that are still willing to pay for this type of work (Dave Andrews was also getting government contracts).

http://www.canadiannaturephotographe...enstephen.html

http://www.stephenjstephen.com/index.html


This is the competition. They have a big leg up on you and there are hundreds if not thousands like them. Tough business to get into, for sure.

[NorthernFocus]

I totally agree with Dan but if I was going to take a shot at it anyway I'd want to see if my work could get positive reactions from the general public. Either a gallery showing or even a booth at a local arts and crafts show. I'd pick some of my best work and print and frame the best 20 shots. Put a price on them that's high with the express purpose of getting opinions and judging interest, not selling.

To be clear, I'm not in any way dissuading Matthew's pursuit of his goal. Quite the contrary. I was simply sharing my perspective of having researched the same path and dipped my toes in the water a bit. What is suggested above fits into the category that I describe as marketing oneself and "beating the streets". The photographer must beat a path to the door of the customer. Waiting for them to beat a path to yours may result in a long, unfruitful wait. There is a reason for the term "starving artist".

... nobody posting messages here at CiC is qualified to give you great insight about how to accomplish your goal.

Mike, I suppose that depends on one's definition of "qualified". If the implication is that one must be successful at a given endeavor in order to be qualified to offer advise then I disagree. To a learning mind there is as much (or more) to glean from failure as from success. Also one can pass on knowledge gained from one's own research in hopes of offering at least a few shortcuts in the process. I'd suggest that occurs every day here on CiC.

Frankly, my own experience dealing with professional wildlife photographers over the years is that very few are helpful and/or encouraging when one directly seeks advice on gaining entry into the market as one of their competitors. Go figure. On the other hand, they seem to share information, advice, etc fairly freely among peers. One can learn a lot if the opportunity presents itself to be a fly on the wall during those discussions

[NorthernFocus]

... even the well established wildlife photographers are having trouble making a go of it...

Can you say... workshop?

Actually if anyone has clicked on Matthew's link to his website, he's off to a start on the modern marketing model. There are quite a few folks with no broad name recognition as "fine art" sellers who market themselves online with instruction, ebooks, etc. The traditional model was the reverse. After one established a name then books, calendars, etc. provided additional income. Now one can establish the name recognition via the web and social media. Time will tell whether that translates into the more upscale market.

[Mike Buckley]

Dan,

I wrote: I would not be surprised to learn that nobody posting messages here at CiC is qualified to give you great insight about how to accomplish your goal.

You quoted me: nobody posting messages here at CiC is qualified to give you great insight about how to accomplish your goal.

Huge difference.

[thetraveler]

I have two friends who were 'professional' photographers; they worked full time either taking pictures in a specific genre (amateur motor sports, high school athletics) or the business stuff around these niches. Note that they both were in areas where the basic rule of the business of mid-level photography should have applied - most pictures that are bought have people in them and those people are somehow closely related to the buyers.

They both quit and went on to something else because of two factors: the competition from other photographers who did approximately the same work (as far as the customers could ascertain) - often cheaper - and, in this age of smart cameras and cell phones, the lowered perceived value of photographs or experienced photographers.

A third acquaintance used to make his living by shooting local scenic areas and self-publishing photo books that were sold at tourist venues. We were both speaking at a local meeting and he told me that the market has just cratered in this area over the last 6 or 7 years and his sales are a small percentage of what they were.

Excellent photographers, name photographers now teach expensive workshops to make a living.

Even wedding photographers, the ultimate in person-facing businesses have changed their business model away from selling prints to giving away disks. In the face of competition from low end FB wedding photographers, they reported that the vast number of potential clients can't, don't see the value of more expensive work.

I looked at your website and thought your approach was interesting, perhaps attractive to wildlife photographers.

There are three things I suggest changing.

• First, Put one of your best pictures on the first screen so that people understand what you are capable of and splash little pictures around the site. So potential buyers know you can do what you want to teach. You aren't exemplifying what you are going to teach.
• Second, get a better picture of you with some implements of the trade in it. As a portrait, it's not good or flattering and looks amateurishly done. And why is it first? People don't give a crap what you look like. They are buying your product, not dating you.
• Third, the last row in your table of comparisons is offputting.

I won’t tell you how to “go professional” as a photographer

1. I’m not a pro, 2. The terms Professional and Amateur have nothing to do with the quality of a person’s images

perhaps:

My goal is not to teach you how to make a business of photography.

My goal is to show you how to raise the level of your wildlife photography to match those of 'professionals'

You are a pro, you are selling skills. People want their teacher to be 'professional' however they define the word. Don't tell potential clients that you are an amateur with all its ramifications.

[thetraveler]

Oh, I suggest changing title of 'Copyright' page to 'Usage Rights' or something like that.

And where's a link to a sample newsletter? If they like it they can subscribe.

On start here page, the 'what you should do now' should be live-links to another page, to a subscribe here page or to a mail-to page with subject filled.

There are at least two instances of 'Hey there! My name is Matthew. I’m the founder of Nature Photography Mastery Academy™."

That sounds a bit formal, a bit juvenile and should go one place, on the 'about' page. And should have your last name. "Matthew Flying Squirrel"

You want them to be able to ID you and find you in a search. You should not be cultivating the persona of a young guy who may want to mow your lawn.
Your persona should be, "I'm "Matthew Flying Squirrel, kneeling here on the grass, with my tools around me, wearing a hat pulled down over my eyes, holding a camera in one hand, with a tripod behind me, just back from an arduous day shooting wild geese in the marshes and swamps of somewhere."

Exemplify, personalize, state goal so the potential buyer can identify with you and want to do what you do.

(forgive type face, I was rushed)

[chauncey]

I don't have a business (yet)

It would appear that you are at the point that you have convinced yourself that you can take good pictures.
That, IMHO, is no big deal...a lot of folks can do that. Are you prepared to invest even more time learning
what it takes to open and run a successful business.

Or, if merely taking and selling nice pictures is your goal...learn printing, then...hook up with someone
like this http://www.lorigreiner.com/

[flashback]

I can't offer any practical advise as to getting your business off the ground but I can, in a way, reverse engineer your goal:

I am a customer with a few dollars to spend and I want to (or I'm advised by friend/mate/spouse/interior decorator et al) to go and buy some artwork for my very bare walls. Hmmm....what to do.

Well I rope start my googling machine and begin a search for the odd creature called 'Fine Art Photography'. The results are quick, numerous and confusing. A quick read of a few sites suggests to me that, if I'm looking for fine art photography I should be looking for an artist who produces interesting, perhaps a bit abstracty images that tend to have a message, or a theme, that conveys a feeling or an emotion. So's I looks around and I finds me some galleries as well as individual photographer websites and begin the process of finding fine art that I like. (I'm told that Dogs Playing Poker and Elvis on Black Velvet are no longer considered Fine Art.)

I find that prices vary quite a bit and that it seems like almost anybody can put up a 'fine art photography' website and they are all quite happy to sell me their version of 'fine art photography'. And, many of them offer various options of how I can have an image printed, some also offer framing services. So it seems the entire fine art photography world is now laid bare at my feet and I only need to point at the 'pitchers' I like, whip out the trust credit card and, depending on how I choose to have them shipped, will have my fine art photographs delivered anywhere from a few days to a week or more. Bang! Fine. Art. Photographs. Oh by the way, seems hard to justify $1400+ for fancy art photos when there are a number of fine art photographers out there selling their wares for a fraction of that cost.

So there you Matthew, more or less, I suspect, how most people would go about purchasing 'fine art photographs'. And I suspect for most everyone else they may go to walmart for all their wall art work needs, or to CVS as well as walmart and have their own photos printed and then buy some frames.

How you print out your photos is at least as important as what it is that your are photographing to begin with. But regardless, any photos you sell will really, just be 'pictures I bought from a guy online.' Unless your name has become synonymous with fine art photographs you're another grain of sand on the beach. So to me what you really need to do is find some interior decorators/designers, real estate 'stagers' (prepare a home for sale by literally setting it up as a 'staged' event.) And it would not hurt to prepare a very well put together portfolio of your work and knock on some doors of photography/art/fine art galleries. Pretty much, I believe, your work won't really ever be considered 'fine art' until you have name recognition, galleries want to show you and the photograph price tag is high enough to make most people gasp. But I could be all wrong.

[FlyingSquirrel]

First, I want to extend a genuine thank you to everyone that has replied and tried to help. I truly appreciate your time, experience, and advice.

Second, regardless of whether you tried to encourage me, or tried to discourage me, I know that you had my best interests in mind in either case. Those of you that preach the “cold, hard truth” of the difficulty of the industry are obviously trying to protect me from disappointment and crushed dreams, and I appreciate that. Friends try to do those things. However…

I have learned some things in my life thus far, notably some very important things in the past 4 years or so. And one of the most important things is that, even if something is very challenging and success is “unlikely” in some people’s opinions, you should not be deterred to at least try it. In fact, it is precisely when I stretch myself to learn, grow, and achieve in the face of great challenge, that I feel the most fulfilled and happy, regardless of success, or failure. The key is that we will never know what we are capable of until we push as hard as we can (or harder), and the only true failure is never trying and then wondering later in life what could have been.

Even further, I don’t consider what is possible for me to do by looking at what others have done or are doing (although I do look, to learn). Instead I consider what may be possible by what I believe I can do, based on my own internally generated certainty, feeling, visualization, passion, and willingness to work hard, long, and make sacrifices.

Do you think Walt Disney, Thomas Edison, Barack Obama, Roger Bannister, etc were discouraged when people laughed at them and said “You’re crazy” or “It can’t be done” ?

The point is, I will not be dissuaded from my goals based on other people’s opinions and self-imposed limitations. Additionally, the photography industry, technology, marketing, and other things have changed lot, and so new opportunities have opened up, despite old ways not working as well anymore in some cases.

All of that said, I think things may have been misconstrued a good deal. To clarify:

I am not looking to be a pro photographer (at least not right now)

I do not want to make a living off selling prints or being a photographer.

All I want to do is try selling some of my work and see if I can make some side income, to start

I do have a number of advantages, some but not all of them are:

I have been studying online marketing techniques (and using some) for the past couple years

I am a web / graphic designer, and can do much website, graphics, ads, etc, myself

I have a lot of time for working on this because I sacrifice other things to make that time

I am doing this on the side of my current job (again for side income, to start)

I am willing to work hard and stretch myself, including doing real work by calling and visiting places

I do have a connection to a pro nature photographer, although she is extremely busy all the time and hard to get ahold of.

Although there is a ton of competition, it doesn’t completely rule out success for me

I have two websites, one of which is a site that I’m trying to build into an online training or product based launchpad (the one everyone’s commented on) Another is my portfolio site (not linked here), which I am soon going to redesign to be far better, and separate it out so it’s less connected to the first mentioned website.

-------

Thanks to everyone for your valuable feedback on my website. There is some good info there for me to consider and potentially act upon. I want to point out that the ‘Nature Photography Mastery’ website is not relevant to my fine art brand and potential sales of prints, specifically. Although I understand that it is still connected to who I am and what I do, and could be seen by potential fine art buyers. Soon I am going to redesign my other website and use it for my fine art brand, for selling prints and other such things.

That said, let me reply to the feedback on this other website. First, I am not selling anything currently. I have no product or service available (yet). Additionally, the idea behind this website is to possibly create online courses and such.

Second, I will say that I have some rather outspoken perspectives on certain things. I understand the reaction to some of those statements, but my goal is not to please everyone. I need to be true to myself. I cannot live with myself if I’m putting up a facade. People that are just ‘themselves’ eventually attract the right audience. But yes, in general I should avoid being offensive to a great extent.

I can understand that the last row in my comparison table could be off putting to some people (especially to someone that may be a professional). However, the suggested change does not accurately reflect my belief. In fact, it is precisely the opposite of my belief. As stated, I don’t believe that pros necessarily have better photos than amateurs in every case. Sorry if that offends some people, including anyone here. That said, I will think about what you said and consider if I might want to change it in some way, or remove it entirely.

More good advice on the other points of the site.

But I will point out that a sample newsletter is not typical in today’s online marketing. The subscriptions are gained by offering a free lead magnet (my workflow cheat sheet in this case).

I cannot currently afford to pay a professional portrait photographer to have nice photos of me. I did the best I could at this point. I had to start somewhere.

The start here page 'what you should do now' first point is a live link, but I do need to update it so it looks like a link. Good catch. The other points are not links because I don’t want to make it easy for them to do other things first. I want them to sign up to the newsletter, about all else. I am funneling them to my newsletter.

The persona on the currently discussed website is intended to be less formal and more ‘friendly.’ I think people are attracted to that, at least for online learning, video tutorials, etc and many other photographers doing what I do are similar. I think a lot of people that are learning online and improving their photography, like to learn from “real people” that are like them.

That said, I may tweak things a bit based on some of this feedback in regard to my persona / image. Maybe I could present things better. Also I may add my last name in some spots as you suggested.

(For my other website - soon to be revamped - I will be focusing on developing my personal image / persona in a certain way, to attract the fine art buyers to ‘who I am’, as I know that is a big part of what collectors look at. The work is important, but the ‘relationship’ and what the photographer stands for is also key. They like to buy work from people they ‘like’. I have learned that from my recent research.)

I originally considered putting some of my photos on the homepage, but it ultimately distracted from the goal of showing the main content, as well as the squeeze to get newsletter subscribers via my lead magnet. I may look at it again and see if I can work some photos in, as you said it would show people what I’m capable of / that I can do what I claim.

Bringing up my original questions again, which were, admittedly, overshadowed by my drawn out original post:

- Best printing method(s) to use

- Printing companies / sources that would work with me as described (if there are any!)

- Anything relevant specifically to the printing process, sources, ways to sell and fulfill orders, etc

I realize some of you have directly responded to those items, but additional input on them would be appreciated if anyone has anything else to add.

Also, the other comments on the business side of things have still been valuable and I do appreciate the opportunity to receive the feedback offered. Thank you

[FlyingSquirrel]

I really hope you get there. You clearly have the passion and IMO are producing images worthy of "fine art". I'd love to be travelling through Seattle some day and see one of you images hanging up there beside Art Wolfe's so I could say "I knew him when...."

Dan, thanks a lot. Your kind words and encouragement are appreciated. You've helped me a lot and been somewhat of a mentor. Even if I don't get famous, I'd love to send you a print of one of my photos once I get working with a lab.