ND Filters; Variable? Stacked?

[NorthernFocus]

I've never been serious enough about landscape shooting to justify replacing an old Cokin P series filter set that I've had for years. But I recently used them and my ND grad is scratched up from years of riding around in my bag. And at anything wider than 28mm FF it causes major vignetting. Plus on long exposures there is a distinct color shift. So I was thinking it's finally time to upgrade.

Which brings me to the point. Does anyone use/have experience with variable ND filters? They seem like a great idea but from what I gather, some swear by them, others swear at them

How about stacked filters like Cokin Z/Nuance or Lee?

One that looks attractive is NiSi 100mm filter set with an integrated 82mm CPL. It's a generic holder that will take Cokin, Lee, etc.

Any experiences/input will be appreciated.

[LePetomane]

Dan, you have a lot more experience than I do but Singh Ray brand of ND filters was recommended to me by a professional photographer that I have taken workshops from.

[Mike Buckley]

There have been lots of discussions of the stuff you're asking about. Consider conducting a search and hope there aren't too many threads to wade through.

[NorthernFocus]

There have been lots of discussions of the stuff you're asking about. Consider conducting a search and hope there aren't too many threads to wade through.

Thanks for the reminder, Mike. Did so and found plenty useful info. Not sure what I was thinking.

No need for further replies, folks.

[John 2]

Limited experience here Dan to the extent that one of this year's objectives is to get out and find suitable subjects to get more use out of those that I own. Just two thoughts. I have read that variable NDs are apparently OK except that apparently, towards the extremes they can sometimes produce a cross shaped variation in tone. Stacked filters in general (?) - multiple reflective surfaces ?

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks, John. From what I gather VNDs have two inescapable issues. 1) when used for wide aperture work they cause weird patterns in the bokeh. Not an issue for landscape work which is what I'm interested in. 2) They cause the cross pattern that you refer to with ultra wide angle lenses, typically starting around 18mm or wider. I don't currently shoot anything that wide but intend to work in that direction in the future.

So as much as I hate all of the additional hardware involved, I will likely stick with the square filter design and simply upgrade to higher quality.

[John 2]

Thanks, John. From what I gather VNDs have two inescapable issues. 1) when used for wide aperture work they cause weird patterns in the bokeh. Not an issue for landscape work which is what I'm interested in. 2) They cause the cross pattern that you refer to with ultra wide angle lenses, typically starting around 18mm or wider. I don't currently shoot anything that wide but intend to work in that direction in the future.

So as much as I hate all of the additional hardware involved, I will likely stick with the square filter design and simply upgrade to higher quality.

I still have some Cokin filters (A or P - not sure which) plus holders from film days. Tried to use the ND set that I had but found that they produced a heavy red/magenta bias and so abandoned them. However, don't Cokin market a higher quality glass filter set these day. No idea what they are like but it might avoid your having to replace holders etc.

[DanK]

Or alternatively, if you want NDs but not a grad, is screw-in filters. I know they are less flexible, but I find them adequate given that I too don't do much landscape. All of my lenses have one of two filter sizes, so I have a set for the larger with a step-up ring for the smaller. I've bought three brands, Marumi, Hoya, and Breakthrough, and I have settled on Marumi for all but the 10-stop. The have been reviewed well, are not terribly expensive, and in my tests, have almost no color cast. For a 10-stop, I use a Hoya ProND, which is also very neutral but has been reviewed as not being top shelf in terms of detail preservation (not that I have noticed).

[Mike Buckley]

All of my lenses have one of two filter sizes

I'm jealous! I have six lenses (five primes and one wide-angle zoom) and every single lens has a different filter size.

[Donald]

Thanks for the reminder, Mike. Did so and found plenty useful info. Not sure what I was thinking.

No need for further replies, folks.

Hopefully some of my own contributions are in the discussions you found. If not and I can help, let me know.

I have a Singh-Ray Thin Vari ND and a Singh Ray 5-stop ND. Stack them and I get up to 13 stops of ND. That'll nearly stop a bright sun.

[Tringa]

This is not a real alternative to good ND filter but in the UK, and I suspect the USA too, pieces of welding glass can be had for next to nothing. It would take a little bit of work to work out how to attach a piece to a lens but it is VERY dark - I've viewed the midday sun in September through some with no problems. There is the problem that the glass very dark green but the colour cast can be countered using a custom white balance.

Dave

[bnnrcn]

I used to have a B+W screw in 10 stop ND filter. I found using it a bit difficult . Because it was a very dark filter , I had to take it off and put it on while composing and focusing. At last I bought the Lee filter system and I'm quite happy with it I thought about buying a variable ND filter in the past but because of the issues which have already been mentioned I decided not to.

[Mike Buckley]

Because it was a very dark filter , I had to take it off and put it on while composing and focusing.

If you temporarily increase the ISO, you will probably be able to frame and focus the image without removing the filter.

[rpcrowe]

I wish that round GND filters would be available in sets with 1/3, 1/2 and 2/3 of the filter as the ND. That way, I could generally use the rule of thirds...

[NorthernFocus]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

John, Cokin does have a high end line called Nuances which are made with premium optical glass and they claim has no color cast. They are priced comparable to Lee and other brands. I've already decided to abandon the P series due to the vignetting issue which means starting with a whole new system either way I go. Cokin does have the Z series which is "standard" 100mm/4in. But if starting new I might as well consider all the alternatives which is what drove the OP.

Dan, I have the same situation with two filter sizes, 72 and 77, that cover my primary landscape lenses. But even though it's only once in a while I do use a ND grad which complicates things. Also I tend to shoot around water a lot so most times that I use ND it needs to stack with a CPL. So much as I hate it the decision seems to be pushing towards a 100mm holder type system. I hate to do so simply due to the bulk.

Donald, I did find your comments in some search results which were very helpful. My only additional question is when using the variable ND have you ever had issues with the cross pattern I've seen mentioned when going wider than 20mm? Or don't you shoot that wide?

Dave, color casting is enough of a problem with purpose made photo filters. I can only imagine the issues with welding glass. And based on my experience removing color cast with PP to recover true colors is not a simple task.

Binnur, the slide in filters are definitely a benefit in that regard. For that matter the slide in system had multiple benefits. The biggest downside is bulk.

[bnnrcn]

It might be possible to focus manually by using live view and incresing ISO at the day time Mike . I tried this method with my infrared filter which was a dark filter too and it worked. But because I usually shoot at sunset time the light is not as strong as the day time and it is difficult to see through the filter even with a high ISO ( Sometimes I have difficulty in focusing at dusk even without any filters ) . Also, my filter holder allows me to use some Grad ND filters together with my ND filter and I find it very easy just to slide the filters in an out

If you temporarily increase the ISO, you will probably be able to frame and focus the image without removing the filter.

[Donald]

Donald, I did find your comments in some search results which were very helpful. My only additional question is when using the variable ND have you ever had issues with the cross pattern I've seen mentioned when going wider than 20mm? Or don't you shoot that wide?

Dan - Because I have the Canon 11-24 f4L which has the bulbous front element which no filter will fit, I have never used it that wide, so I cannot comment on that issue. There is certainly no problem at 24mm on the 24-70 lens.

[rpcrowe]

THE WHOLE QUESTION WOULD BE MOOT! If the camera companies would put as much effort into producing cameras that can be used at a very low ISO, as they do in producing cameras that can shoot at the "quadrillion-billion" ISO levels. Of course, the high ISO level is what sells cameras to the general public. And, there are probably not that many folks who need the slow shutter speeds that the low ISO capabilities would enable.

[DanK]

THE WHOLE QUESTION WOULD BE MOOT! If the camera companies would put as much effort into producing cameras that can be used at a very low ISO, as they do in producing cameras that can shoot at the "quadrillion-billion" ISO levels. Of course, the high ISO level is what sells cameras to the general public. And, there are probably not that many folks who need the slow shutter speeds that the low ISO capabilities would enable.

I'll be most people would much rather have to use an ND once in a while than to have an extra several stops of amplification in the recorded image. I know I sure would.

[NorthernFocus]

Dan - Because I have the Canon 11-24 f4L which has the bulbous front element which no filter will fit, I have never used it that wide, so I cannot comment on that issue. There is certainly no problem at 24mm on the 24-70 lens.

Hmmm. Now there's something else for me to think about. I know I want to start doing UWA work in the future but nothing says I have to go UWA and long ss at the same time. So maybe I don't need to go to the larger square format.

OK, now I'm going backwards in the decision making process