Prints are dull

[steverap]

Hi, I have struggled unsuccessfully for a year to produce prints that look like the images I see on my screen: to varying degrees, most print colors are duller than those in the displayed images. Gear: late 2015, wide gamut, iMac; Epson Surecolor P800 printer; both display and printer calibrated with an X-Rite ColorMunki. Printing from Photoshop with Photoshop managing colors and using an X-Rite-created profile for Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster, Perceptual rendering (though I have tried other rendering intents and results don't vary munch). Most images are RAW, color space is ProPhoto RGB. Colors in prints look duller than those in displayed images and soft-proofed images also look duller. What am I missing?

[Shadowman]

Hi Steve,

What is the image you are printing, would it benefit from another type of paper? Also, do you get notification of which black (Photo black or Matte black) to use?

[Polar01]

Have your tried setting your black and white points, most times a print is dull is the result of not having a good black in the image so the image appears dull when printed. Remember what you see on the monitor is a projected light image, what comes off the printed is a reflected light image. I would have to go into Photoshop to get the name of the adjustment layer that I use to find black and white points. I you want to know it just reply to this post that you would like it.

Cheers: Allan

[Round Tuit]

Hi Steve,

Welcome to this forum.
Your prints are duller than your screen images because the screen is a light source whereas the print can only reflect available light. Reducing the brightness of your monitor will help but will not completely eliminate the difference. The best approach is to add an adjustment layer on top of the layer stack of your finished photo and increase the brightness and contrast. Do a test print and fine tune the adjustment layer until you get a good match between the print and monitor. Then SAVE that adjustment layer and use it every time that you use the same combination of printer/paper.

André

[rpcrowe]

Luster paper is generally not as bright and sparkly as glossy paper and, prints, in general, are seldom as bright and contrasty as image on a computer monitor which is viewed by transmitted, rather than reflected light.

There are some papers that mesh with some printers better than other papers and these are not always the brand of paper produced by the maker of the printer.

As an example, I once used a HP Printer which never really produced great looking prints whenever I used HP paper. This is despite calibration, etc. However, Fry's Electronics once sold a loss leader glossy paper for one U.S. Dollar for twenty five sheets of 8.5 x 11 inch paper. Unbelievably, this paper and my HP printer produced excellent images. I have had some images of my daughter and her hubby right after their marriage 10-years ago which are still great, despite hanging on the wall in my hallway.

I might suggest that you experiment with different types of paper. There are some paper companies that sell assortments of various surfaces; providing several sheets of each surface.

Red River Paper sells sample kits: http://www.redrivercatalog.com/

Hahnemuhl also has samples available: http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/home.php?...-5caAhgv8P8HAQ

Another possibility is to send out for a custom print of one of your images and see what it looks like!

[Manfred M]

Screen is an sRGB, additive colour, transmitted light image.

Print is a CMYK, subtractive colour, reflected light image.

The two can be close but will never be the same. I have my computer screen set at 120 candela / square meter (a.k.a. nit), but even then I have to increase the brightness to get the prints looking correct. I suspect I would have to be down in the 80 - 100 nit range to have the brightness of my screen match the brightness of the print. I am working in a room were the brightness in front of my computer screen as around 40 lux. What level have you set your screen to and what is the ambient light level of the room you work on your images at?

As others have suggested a glossy paper will give you a brighter image than a luster or matte finished paper. I often use the Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster when I print on my Epson Stylus Pro 3880 and am happy with the prints I produce.

I agree with the black point and white point settings, but I do that on all my images, so this is never an issue for me and this really isn't going to have a significant screen versus print impact as the same setting will apply to both.

Bottom line is you are not missing anything. Prints will be duller than looking on screen as this is the nature of both processes.

[Brev00]

I recommend sending a few prints to a high quality online service. I use Bay Photo. If they can do well with one of your tiffs (I would just use rgb color--that is what I do), then the problem is not the quality of your processing or your images, per se, but your printing. I also use a fairly budget-oriented Epson Artisan which does a splendid job with no special color fixed parameters (in terms of calibration other than a simple mac effort). My feeling is something is going on with your printing set up and can be corrected with some adjustments that you just can't see at the moment. I would probably go back to everything default and as simple as possible (maybe because that is all I am capable of) if the online service photos look fine. I would also use an Ultra Premium Glossy Epson paper if you do want vivid colors. That is what I use, anyway. Good luck and report back if you have updated results.

[Polar01]

Steve if I might make a suggestion, it is to do this take out a subscription to Luminous Landscape it is $12.00 US a year, the two articles you want are by Christopher Schneiter they are Beyond Calibration, and Beyond Calibration 2. 2 is probably the better of the two articles more of what you are looking for, it nicely explains how to soft proof, I found it very informative and usually re-read it every couple of months or so, just to help fine tune by memory. Best $12.00 US you will spend this year.

Cheers: Allan

[steverap]

I have joined various forums over the years in technology, photography, etc. but I have never received such supportive and constructive replies to a post. Thank you all so much for your suggestions regarding a problem I have struggled with for over a year - they appear to be more helpful than, among other things, advice from two consultants (for which I paid)! I will reply to individual posts, but I wanted to thank the group as well.

[steverap]

Hi Allan,

No, I have not tried setting black and white points, so I would be grateful for the name of that adjustment layer. Thanks so much for your help! All the best,

Steve

[steverap]

Hi André,

I never thought of the problem that way! And that probably explains why prints look much closer to what I see on my iMac display when I view them outside, under daylight - correct? So, create an adjustment layer at the top of the stack and increase brightness and contrast until displayed image and print match, right? Instead of printing multiple trial-and-error prints until I get a match, could I soft proof images until the soft proof and displayed mages match? One of the problems I've had is that colors in soft proofs (via either "Match Print Colors" in the Print module or "Proof Setup" from the View menu) also look dull.

Thank you so much for your help, all the best,

Steve

[steverap]

Hi Richard,

That's a great idea and I will buy those and other sample packs until I find a paper that really meets my needs. Question: when I soft proof images using profiles for a wide range of papers, why are colors in most of the proofs dull? In soft proofs at least, I am not seeing many differences among paper types.

Thanks so much for your help,

Seve

[davidedric]

Hi,

I print from Lightroom rather than Photoshop, so the facilities are different. However, the soft proofing in Lightroom has an option box you can tick called, I think, "emulate paper and ink". It's commonly referred to in Lightroom circles as the "make my photo look cr*p button", which should tell you it's not just you, and takes us back to what Manfred was saying.

However, if you follow the advice offered here, I'm sure you'll be getting much happier with the results.

Dave

[steverap]

Hi Manfred,

My display is set at 90 cd/m2 with a D65 white point (calibrated with an X-Rite ColorMunki). I do not know the ambient light level, but I do know that my prints look close to what I see on my display when I view them in daylight. What change(s) do you suggest?

Thanks so much for your help,

Steve

[steverap]

Hi Larry,

I sent two images to a highly-regarded lab and they look much like my prints: colors are dull. I will try glossy paper, thanks,

Steve

[steverap]

Hi Allan,

That's a great suggestion, I will do that! All the best,

Steve

[Polar01]

Steve the layer is called "Threshold" you will find it in the adjustment group, it is usually found middle of the bottom row. Apply the layer, now move the slider to the left as it moves the screen become whites but for some black dots when the last black dot disappears not the value, now go to the right as the last white dot disappears note value. Those are your black and white point values, now turn off the "Threshold" layer then apply a curves layer, adjust the black to your black value and do the same for the white. Now turning the eyeball on and off you should note a difference I will call it a pop from the original image to the one with the new curves applied to it.
This should greatly help when you print, however it is not the total answer to the problem. That is where the article in Luminous Landscape, Beyond Calibration 2 comes in, it helps you to fine tune your image for print using soft proofing, most only think it is for colours in or out of gamut however it is much more. So spend the $12.00 US for a year, read it your can print them out.

Cheers: Allan

[steverap]

Thanks, Allan, I will try that and read the articles as well. Question: when I "Match Print Colors" in the Print module and check "Gamut Warning," why do I get gamut warnings for many of the color areas? The gamuts of my iMac display and Epson P800 printer are roughly the same, so why can't the printer (or at least the soft proof version of the print) reproduce the same range of colors as my display, or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Steve

[steverap]

Manfred, allow me to put to you the question I posed to Allan: when I "Match Print Colors" in the Print module and check "Gamut Warning," why do I get gamut warnings for many of the color areas? The gamuts of my iMac display and Epson P800 printer are roughly the same, so why can't the printer (or at least the soft proof version of the print) reproduce the same range of colors as my display, or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Steve

[Manfred M]

Manfred, allow me to put to you the question I posed to Allan: when I "Match Print Colors" in the Print module and check "Gamut Warning," why do I get gamut warnings for many of the color areas? The gamuts of my iMac display and Epson P800 printer are roughly the same, so why can't the printer (or at least the soft proof version of the print) reproduce the same range of colors as my display, or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Steve

First of all, you are making an incorrect assumption regarding what your iMac screen and Epson P800 printer can reproduce. The iMac uses an sRGB screen, has a smaller gamut than what your printer can output. The printer can (in theory) reproduce and in fact exceed the AdobeRGB colour space, but that is dependent on the media you are printing on. Your camera (in theory) can capture all the colours that humans can see and in fact have to be equipped with both a UV and IR filter to ensure that neither the near ultraviolet or near infrared are picked up and recorded.

If you look at the diagram I clipped from Wikipedia, you can get a general idea of this. The overall shape, which is partially obscured by the colour space diagrams shows you what your camera can record. The sRGB diagram shows what your computer screen can reproduce and the 2200 Matt Paper shows the limits of actual output (unfortunately, the specifics of the printer and paper are unknown). Regardless, the important part that is demonstrated is that the printer output and screen output will not be the same. The printer will produce some colours that the screen cannot reproduce and the screen can likely reproduced some colours that the printer cannot (depending to some extent on the print media).




The out of gamut warning will be colours that your are found in the image file that the are out of range (technically "out of gamut" or OOG) for your printer.