First go at portrait shots (school pic style).

[pshieronymus]

Hello,

The community has been most helpful in helping me pick out a new camera(D7200), a lens(a Nikon 50mm primer to start), and a flash(Gotox w/trigger). I have completed my first round with my daughter Hilde as the subject. Part of the deal with my wife was that I would take care of the school pics, and some new baby pics(3 months to go!). Please take a look and provide ANY comment/criticism you can, I have thick skin. I checked the posting guidelines and saw nothing that recommended against linking to outside albums, so I have done so here. Please let me know if I should not post in this manner.



Thank you.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KaP2Kg8Eo8xW5otq1

[Manfred M]

There are no rules against posting a link, but in general that is not a good strategy as many members won't follow the link. Posting the link to individual images will generally give you better feedback.

Let me make some comments on one of the images"

1. Fill the frame - all that empty space above the head is not adding anything to the image. Crop that off and you will get a stronger image.

2. I like the catch lights in the eyes. That gives them life.

3. The white top is helping you and is effectively working as a reflector and throwing a bit of light up under your daughter's chin. I tend to often add a white reflector on the side opposite the flash as a fill light.

4. There are some hot spots on the face, especially on the nose. Are you using any kind of light modifier with your flash?

5. The image could use just a touch more contrast.

6. A 50mm lens on your camera is marginal for this type of shot. It's a full-frame equivalent of 75mm, which is really borderline. I personally tend to shoot these types of shots (on a full-frame camera) using a 105 - 135mm focal length.

[pshieronymus]

Thanks very much @Manfred.

1. I will re-crop and post tonight.

2. Thanks. I like them too.

3. Thanks for the tip on the reflector. Many of my other images had too much shadow on the non-keylight side of her face.
Maybe I can reflect some of that back. Will try that out soon, as the boys are next in line!

4. What is a hotspot exactly, so I can look out in future? I used two speedlights(off camera). The keylight was behind an umbrella and above and off angle to the right of the camera, maybe 3 or 4 feet from the subject. The other was right up against the wall behind the subject and to the left. This flash had one of those White Bag diffusers(freebies with the Gotox Flash Trigger combo). I used this one to try to get a nice fade on the wall color. Both flashes were set to the same power and triggered ttl from the camera.

5. Will do.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Manfred M]

What is a hotspot exactly, so I can look out in future?

It is a very bright area on the subject. Compare my edit to yours. The nose, camera left cheek, chin and forehead all have this issue to some extent. I dodged those areas a bit.

The keylight was behind an umbrella and above and off angle to the right of the camera, maybe 3 or 4 feet from the subject.

What colour and diameter are your umbrella. I assume you used it in reflective rather than shoot through mode?

A good rule of thumb is that your light modifier should be no more than 2x the diameter away from your subject. When I shoot, I tend to have my modifiers just out of the frame.

The other was right up against the wall behind the subject and to the left. This flash had one of those White Bag diffusers(freebies with the Gotox Flash Trigger combo). I used this one to try to get a nice fade on the wall color. Both flashes were set to the same power and triggered ttl from the camera.

I have know idea what that is. My Godox flash did not ship with anything light that. You are using your second light as a background light, which is fine, but only if you have a fill light first.

In photographic lighting, generally we start with a key light, add a fill light and then go with the speciality lights like rim light, hair light, background light, etc. The fill light does not have to be an active light; a white reflector is what I use most often.

Generally the supplementary lights are not as bright as the key light. Fill lights are often 1/2 the power (or less) of the key light, but I'm referring to the measured brightness with compensation for dropoff.

[pshieronymus]

I also thought that this image could be a print candidate as well. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

[Manfred M]

I also thought that this image could be a print candidate as well. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

See my previous comments on cropping and the hot spots (both cheeks, nose and chin).

If you are planning to print, crop to the appropriate print size you are looking at.


Some of the hot spots, I've circled. The bridge and tip of the nose are common places for these to occur.

[Digital]

If I can add my 2 cents worth: overall I like both of these photos. Also, this appears to be short lighting since the side of the face that receives most of the light appears to be turned away from the camera. Short light is good for female subjects.
Have recently read Neil van Niekerk's books, and am wondering if you have attempted to bounce the light off a wall or some type of reflector. I have not tried this technique; however it may reduce or eliminate the hot spots that Manfred is referring to.
To repeat, IMHO you have done a good job on these portraits.

Bruce

[Manfred M]

Short light is good for female subjects

Short light is good for most subjects. The only significant exception is subjects with very narrow faces; here broad light is usually a better choice.

This statement, of course, ignores all the other interesting lighting approaches (split, butterfly, loop and Rembrandt) and really only compares short / broad lighting.

[Digital]

Thanks Manfred for the insight. In one of van Niekerk's books, he mentions that short lighting is good for female subjects; conversely broad lighting is good for males.
You were right in mentioning the other types of lighting.

Bruce

[Manfred M]

Thanks Manfred for the insight. In one of van Niekerk's books, he mentions that short lighting is good for female subjects; conversely broad lighting is good for males.
You were right in mentioning the other types of lighting.

Bruce

If males have narrow faces and females have round faces, okay.

The reasons are a bit more nuanced.

With broad lighting, the camera is pointed at the side of the face that the light is hitting. If the subject has a narrow face, the lighting illuminates a large part of the face, which makes it look larger. This tends to render a narrow face more attractive. The opposite is true for a round face. Light hitting the side we are taking the picture from will illuminate the face and side more and make a round face look rounder than it is. This is usually not desireable.

With short lighting, the camera is pointed at the side of the face opposite of where the light is hitting it, putting it partially in shadow. This has a slimming effect. This is the reason we don't want to use this technique on some with a narrow face. The shadow will make the face look even more narrow.

[Digital]

If males have narrow faces and females have round faces, okay.

The reasons are a bit more nuanced.

With broad lighting, the camera is pointed at the side of the face that the light is hitting. If the subject has a narrow face, the lighting illuminates a large part of the face, which makes it look larger. This tends to render a narrow face more attractive. The opposite is true for a round face. Light hitting the side we are taking the picture from will illuminate the face and side more and make a round face look rounder than it is. This is usually not desireable.

With short lighting, the camera is pointed at the side of the face opposite of where the light is hitting it, putting it partially in shadow. This has a slimming effect. This is the reason we don't want to use this technique on some with a narrow face. The shadow will make the face look even more narrow.

Manfred, thanks for the insight.

Bruce

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the forums from me, great to have another portrait shooter here.

My first thought was the need of a reflector as fill, but Manfred has covered that well enough.

Just to clarify another point already made ...

In Manfred's first post above, in point "1)" he wisely suggested you lose the empty space above the subject's head (by cropping).

I am wondering if, when you next shoot Hilde (or "the boys"), you might be tempted to stand a little closer to the subject (with the 50mm lens) to remove the excess space, because; in respect of Manfred's point "6)", that's probably not a good idea.

The reason we suggest certain focal lengths for specific types of portraiture are not because wider angle of view lens causes distortion of the facial features or body parts, that is entirely due to the camera to subject distance - the thing is, the wider angle lens often 'encourages' the inexperienced to get too close to the subject (in order to 'fill the frame'). When that happens, a slight change of camera height and/or tilt of the subject's head can have a profound effect on the apparent size of some facial features e.g. forehead, nose or chin, or for more distant shots with limbs closer to the camera than the eyes, how large those limbs may look.

I'm another Nikon shooter and happy Godox user (probably thanks to Kathy/inkista), shooting my granddaughter Chloe mainly, but I'm no expert, just learning collaboratively with everyone else here, as you'll see from my linked album.

You can see and read about my progression and the help I received from the members here in these threads;

Baby pics 1, Baby pics 2, Baby pics 3, Baby pics 4, Baby pics 5, Baby pics 6, Baby pics 7, Baby pics 8, Baby pics 9, Toddler pics 1

You may find them useful if you've a baby joining you soon.

Cheers,
Dave

[William W]

. . . I have completed my first round with my daughter Hilde as the subject. Part of the deal with my wife was that I would take care of the school pics . . .

Typically we’d pose a “school Pic” like this one, (which is termed a ‘Tight Half Shot’ or a ‘Bust Shot’) with the Left Hand Shoulder leading.

The main reason is that mostly all Dress Breast Pockets are on the Left Hand side of the Blouse, Shirt or Coat.

***

Manfred's lighting tips/commentary are valuable - nothing to add at the moment.

. . .
6. A 50mm lens on your camera is marginal for this type of shot. It's a full-frame equivalent of 75mm, which is really borderline. I personally tend to shoot these types of shots (on a full-frame camera) using a 105 - 135mm focal length.

Whilst I’d typical use a 100mm to 135mm lens on my 5D Series for a Bust Shot, (that’s about equivalent to a 70mm to 90mm on a Nikon APS-C Camera), it is important to re-iterate that it is NOT the lens which makes the Perspective, but the Camera Position relative to the Subject.

Without access to a longer lens, you can choose to use a 50mm Lens, take one medium step backwards and crop tighter in Post Production and that will get the result which Manfred desires.

***

Curiosity questions: Is it a co-ed school? If so, are the School Shirts/Blouses all the same? Asking because, the Girl’s School Blouse, does not follow the traditional female buttoning.

WW

[William W]

. . . The reason we suggest certain focal lengths for specific types of portraiture are not because wider angle of view lens causes distortion of the facial features or body parts, that is entirely due to the camera to subject distance - the thing is, the wider angle lens often 'encourages' the inexperienced to get too close to the subject (in order to 'fill the frame').

Precisely!

Sorry, I didn't read and acknowledge this before posted the above.

WW

[pshieronymus]

Thank you Bill, Dave, and Manfred. Very helpful insight for sure.

@Bill, the school is coed, and she is probably wearing one of her brothers shirts, and not a girls one! Do what we can....

I do have a kit 18-70 f/3.5-4.5 which I could try fully extended. I have just found that the 50mm prime is quite a bit sharper than this lens which is why I chose to use it. I will try the stance adjustment and post crop method you have suggested until I am in a position for a new lens. Now that I understand the glass a bit better I am seeing why the good stuff is so expensive. It's unfortunate.

[Manfred M]

Now that I understand the glass a bit better I am seeing why the good stuff is so expensive. It's unfortunate.

I don't know the 18-70mm at all so cannot comment on its performance.

The more expensive "pro" lenses are more expensive because they have a larger maximum aperture (a constant f/2.8 throughout the range for zoom lenses), which requires more (and more expensive glass) elements to correct optical issues introduced by this design decision. The 18-70mm is not a cheap kit lens and should give good performance.

[William W]

Give the Zoom Lens a whirl - you have nothing to expend except a bit of time - and that's well invested because you are sure to learn something: try it at around F/8~F/11.

The question about the shirt was my general curiosity and loose study of Societal Changes: I thought perhaps in some USA Schools, where a uniform is required to be worn, there might be a move away from the more traditional gender specific styles.

Thanks for answering.

WW

[Javier]

Dear Manfred
May be you can help us How can we avoid or retouch the hot spots?
Thanks

[Manfred M]

Dear Manfred
May be you can help us How can we avoid or retouch the hot spots?
Thanks

1. Avoiding (or rather minimizing) hot spots is often related to how we light the subject the subject. A large and diffuse light source that is close to the subject helps here. When I shoot with light modifiers, they are no more than twice the diameter or twice the diagonal for rectangular modifiers away from the subject. Often I put them so close that they get into the frame of the image and have to be retouched out.

2. Make sure that there is no perspiration or natural oils on the skin. The forehead, cheeks, bridge and tip of the nose and chin are all place where these occur. Removing them eliminates / reduces hot spots.

3. Good makeup. A good foundation + powder result in a diffuse surface that helps to reduce hot spots. Hot and humid conditions contribute to this problem, so cleaning up the oils and perspiration and reapplying powder with a soft brush whenever we see these hot spots is useful.

4. Burning down these areas in post can be used to correct this issue. In extreme cases one sometimes has to clone them out.


To give you an example, I have not done any retouching to the model's face. There are a couple of areas I would normally dodge and burn here. Notice the bright area along her the camera right side of the face, I would not touch that at all as it sculpts her face and makes it stand out from her neck.





If you look on the left hand side of the the image, you can see that the foot of the light stand holding the key (main) light is in the image. I will remove that in post.

[pshieronymus]

Again, thanks for the advice Manfred, Javier, William W. I did no "face prep" for the portrait of Hilde above but can see how it would help with the reflective/hot spots. I also think I will benefit from a softbox for the keylight, and one that is a bit larger. I have posted one from each of my 2 sons sets as I would love to get some feedback on handling glasses lenses. In Harold's image below I was able to miss any really significant reflections, but not the same for Henry's shots. Any general advice when dealing with glasses would be much appreciated. Thanks!