First Flash Second Question

[Artshot]

How I ended up with 2 macro lenses is the subject of another thread, but I have a 105mm and a 200mm. Both vintage nikon non-cpu. I have mostly used the 105 because of the size/weight issue. The 200mm has the advantage of keeping a good distance from bugs, but I found it more of a problem backing into things, and nowhere to brace my elbows.

My new SB-910 has the same minimum working distance as my built in flash, 2 feet. This means the flash works with the 28 inch minimum focus setting on the 200mm. I understand the advantages to using the flash at different angles to the subject, but the difference between 8 inches and 28 inches adds another factor on how to rig things up.

Having some great information and photos on how you guys make things work, I'd be interested in knowing what lens you're using, and why.

[xpatUSA]

How I ended up with 2 macro lenses is the subject of another thread, but I have a 105mm and a 200mm.
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Having some great information and photos on how you guys make things work, I'd be interested in knowing what lens you're using, and why.

I have four true macro (1:1) lenses: three Sigma full-frame 50mm, 70mm and 105mm which I use on 1.7 crop cameras, and the Panasonic "Leica" 45mm μ4/3 which I use on a Lumix DMC-G1.

I choose the 70mm because it's simply the best of those three Sigmas. Hard to find these days, especially in SA mount.

The other two Sigmas I got very, very cheap because their AF is not working but I don't use AF for macro anyway.

[Stagecoach]

My new SB-910 has the same minimum working distance as my built in flash, 2 feet. This means the flash works with the 28 inch minimum focus setting on the 200mm. I understand the advantages to using the flash at different angles to the subject, but the difference between 8 inches and 28 inches adds another factor on how to rig things up.

I have used my flash both on TTL and Manual and have never had a problem controlling it when working at minimum subject distances of 1:1 and greater with macro, whether camera mounted, on an L bracket or freestanding. I think in your case it's really a matter of trying it to see what happens. You may very well find that at minimum focus distances when the flash is placed at different distances/positions from the subject you find you need to use FEC to get exposure spot on when in TTL (or the mode you have mentioned on the previous post that's applicable to the 910/non CPU).

In macro/close up work I generally use manual flash for easiest control with the larger flashes whilst the small SBR-200s up close give very good TTL results.

Having some great information and photos on how you guys make things work, I'd be interested in knowing what lens you're using, and why.

I use a 105mm VR and also have an old 105mm that I have stripped and which is now effectively a non CPU lens that I can use manually as it has an aperture ring. The choice of a 105mm in my case was that I was not concerned about being farther away from my subjects and the weight advantage when hand holding.

[Artshot]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to bend my new flash bracket to work with the 105mm, and keep things as compact as possible.
While I wanted a flash that will give me all the options, I'm already convinced that manual mode is what I'll use.

[george013]

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to bend my new flash bracket to work with the 105mm, and keep things as compact as possible.
While I wanted a flash that will give me all the options, I'm already convinced that manual mode is what I'll use.

Distance info comes from the lens. Minimal a cpu lens or with Nikon a D-lens. The D from distance. A G-lens is also a D-lens. But even then I don't think that will work with macro.
For the lens info https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/ni/N...d=1&lang=en_US

George

[DanK]

I know nothing about Nikons, but shooting Canon, I have had no problems using a regular flash even at minimum focusing distance. And when I started macro, almost all of the highly skilled macro photographers from whom I tried to learn used a regular flash, with a lot of diffusing, held very close to the front of the lens. That's what I have been doing for years, without any problems.

Unlike Grahame, I always use my flash in auto (E-TTL) mode when I shoot bugs. It makes this much simpler. I use manual mode and set the aperture and shutter speed I want--for that purpose, my starting point is usually 1/125 and f/13. I let the camera determine how much flash to add.

One complication, regardless of which way you do it, is the distance between the bug and the background. These distances are typically very short in absolute terms but can be large relative to the distance from the camera to the bug. When the distance is too great, the background will often be underexposed. Since I shoot in TTL mode, I can adjust for that by changing ISO to change the impact of ambient light. Unfortunately, on my old crop-sensor camera, I find myself limited to ISO 400 if I want to avoid problems, but that two stops helps. Most often, I shoot at ISO 200.

If you want to see the results, look at the bug galleries on my website. Most of those photos were taken in this way.

[Geoff F]

Those minimum focusing distances seem a bit on the long side, but there is often a difference between what will autofocus and the minimum which can be achieved with manual focusing. For instance, with my Sigma 180 macro lens I can reduce that minimum distance by nearly half with manual focusing. Which tales me down to 12 ins.

I frequently add a 1.4x converter to that 180 mm when concentrating on small live insects for identification purposes where it is often necessary to see small details like the shape of their feet or close examination of antennae etc.

With macro lenses, less magnification is best but getting closer than 12 ins means a lot of fly/run aways and when shooting for recording of wildlife I really need an identifiable image of every creature which I encounter; so having around 250 mm at 12 ins means a lot more records. Always using a good tripod though. I find a quick grip form of ball head to be the most reliable option.

The in built pop up camera flash can cause problems with getting sufficient coverage due to a shadow area caused by the lens tip. A flash unit with greater height makes a lot of difference and I normally remove the lens hood to give improved coverage.

If there is still a lens shadow problem I will add a Lastolite Mini Apollo unit to my flash head which gives a wider flash coverage when working really close. It also helps to prevent harsh shadows; however, my experiments have shown that this item doesn't make any difference beyond around 18 ins of subject to lens distance. So when normally working, literally in the field, I tend not to use it, particularly as it often gets tangled in brambles etc when I'm shooting through holes in the undergrowth.

[Stagecoach]

My new SB-910 has the same minimum working distance as my built in flash, 2 feet. This means the flash works with the 28 inch minimum focus setting on the 200mm. I understand the advantages to using the flash at different angles to the subject, but the difference between 8 inches and 28 inches adds another factor on how to rig things up..

Reference by Art to "minimum working distance" I believe is with respect to the flash which raises the question what is it based upon.

The specs for the 910 show a 'useable range' 0.6m (and in other sections 0.2m) upwards, even for the auto 'non TTL mode" that uses a sensor on the flash to measure the reflected preflash.

Specs for my SB-R200s which are designed for fitting to the front of the lens for macro show a 'useable' range of 0.6m upwards and they work perfectly in TTL mode when the distance is considerably less

So what determines that 'minimum' useable distance given with flashes, is it a figure that is simply saying you will not get 100% accuracy in auto use at distances less than this?

[rpcrowe]

Regarding: minimum flash distance (MFD), As I understand it, MFD relates only to using flash in the TTL or automatic mode. There is no MFD when using the flash in a manual mode.

If you find yourself in the unlikely situation of the minimum (usually 1/64 or with some flashes 1/128 power) power being too bright for your use; you can always add some type of diffusing material over the flash which will cut down the brightness of the flash.

I use a setup like this for much of my macro work.



However, I have recently acquired a Yongnuo YN-14EX-C ring flash for my macro lighting. It is a copy of the Canon ring flash at a fraction of the cost (I paid about $99 USD). I like the unit quite well and leave it attached to my 100mm Canon macro lens; so is always ready for a shot. As with the Canon model, the Yongnuo has the capability of adjusting the brightness of each half of the ring separately to aid in getting a bit of shadow definition in my image. The flash works automatically or manually.

[Artshot]

Distance info comes from the lens. Minimal a cpu lens or with Nikon a D-lens. The D from distance. A G-lens is also a D-lens. But even then I don't think that will work with macro.
For the lens info https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/ni/N...d=1&lang=en_US

George

The D750 allows you to enter lens info for non-cpu lenses. There are 2 flash modes that use this info along with reflected light to set flash power. These old lenses have never been easier to use.

[george013]

The D750 allows you to enter lens info for non-cpu lenses. There are 2 flash modes that use this info along with reflected light to set flash power. These old lenses have never been easier to use.

What info can you enter?

George

I looked for it myself. Faster. The focal length and the maximum aperture. For the distance you need minimal a D-lens. And even if you've a D-lens, I doubt if it is usable for macro.
When you want to use distance info for the flash you've to go for ttl-bl and the flash head directly to the front. But I think the meaning of bl has changed.
Concerning the minimal flash distance I think you've to think somehow in the minimal flash power the flash can give. How and under what conditions you use that is up to you.

George

[Stagecoach]

What info can you enter?

George

It's covered on page 235 and 236 of the PDF version of the manual.

[george013]

It's covered on page 235 and 236 of the PDF version of the manual.

I wanted to hear it from Art. He's using it as an argument. I don't want to solve a puzzle.

George

[dje]

Reference by Art to "minimum working distance" I believe is with respect to the flash which raises the question what is it based upon.

The specs for the 910 show a 'useable range' 0.6m (and in other sections 0.2m) upwards, even for the auto 'non TTL mode" that uses a sensor on the flash to measure the reflected preflash.

Specs for my SB-R200s which are designed for fitting to the front of the lens for macro show a 'useable' range of 0.6m upwards and they work perfectly in TTL mode when the distance is considerably less

So what determines that 'minimum' useable distance given with flashes, is it a figure that is simply saying you will not get 100% accuracy in auto use at distances less than this?

Grahame I'm not sure but one factor is the minimum power level that the flash can put out (ie the minimum duration of the flash). Flash exposure depends on flash power, flash light path, distance, aperture and ISO. If power, aperture and ISO are all at their minimum (highest f stop), then there must come a point as the distance gets smaller where over-exposure occurs. This is alluded to in this Nikon article. It depends of course on whether you are using direct flash or not too.

Another factor could be the largest beam angle of the flash. If the flash is too close, you could get uneven illumination across the frame. Speedlights usually have a minimum focal length setting.

Dave

[Stagecoach]

I wanted to hear it from Art. He's using it as an argument. I don't want to solve a puzzle.

George

I don't see that Art is using anything as an 'argument' and more importantly is not in any way suggesting 'distance' information/data is being used for anything with respect to determining flash control.

[george013]

Grahame I'm not sure but one factor is the minimum power level that the flash can put out (ie the minimum duration of the flash). Flash exposure depends on flash power, flash light path, distance, aperture and ISO. If power, aperture and ISO are all at their minimum (highest f stop), then there must come a point as the distance gets smaller where over-exposure occurs. This is alluded to in this Nikon article. It depends of course on whether you are using direct flash or not too.

Another factor could be the largest beam angle of the flash. If the flash is too close, you could get uneven illumination across the frame. Speedlights usually have a minimum focal length setting.

Dave

A lot of it is handled in the guide number.

George

[xpatUSA]

A lot of it is handled in the guide number.

George

Well, that says it all, then.

No need for any more posts in this thread!

[dje]

A lot of it is handled in the guide number.

George

Well GN calculations can be used to determine exposure for direct flash for a given power level and distance.

Dave

[Stagecoach]

Grahame I'm not sure but one factor is the minimum power level that the flash can put out (ie the minimum duration of the flash). Flash exposure depends on flash power, flash light path, distance, aperture and ISO. If power, aperture and ISO are all at their minimum (highest f stop), then there must come a point as the distance gets smaller where over-exposure occurs. This is alluded to in this Nikon article. It depends of course on whether you are using direct flash or not too.

Another factor could be the largest beam angle of the flash. If the flash is too close, you could get uneven illumination across the frame. Speedlights usually have a minimum focal length setting.

Dave

Dave, as you say there are so many variables. I also wonder if the "preflash" (when used) return is affected adversely by a shorter distance.

I suppose we are generally more interested in flash power/control ability at it's farther distances than close up. Out of interest next time I have the SB-600 out I'm going to do a test in TTL to see if I can determine the minimum distance where the rigs control of the exposure accuracy starts dropping off.

[Stagecoach]

Going back to Art's first post and his comment regarding the SB-910 flash 'minimum working distance' ............................

My new SB-910 has the same minimum working distance as my built in flash, 2 feet. This means the flash works with the 28 inch minimum focus setting on the 200mm. I understand the advantages to using the flash at different angles to the subject, but the difference between 8 inches and 28 inches adds another factor on how to rig things up.

........................ as I had mentioned it raises the question of what is flash minimum working distance also quoted as range as given in the spec sheets, what's it based on and how applicable is it to Art's specific topic, using his flash with a macro lens that has a 'short' minimum 'focus' distance.

I set up a test using my D300, SB-600 flash with no diffuser in TTL mode remote from the camera and controlled by the pop up camera flash working as "commander" to the SB-600.

The SB-600 manual spec clearly states that in TTL mode at f/16, ISO200 it has a shooting distance range of 0.6 m (2ft) upwards but I have never considered it has a problem controlling at much shorter distances with macro.

The test : Camera settings, f/16, 1/125, ISO200, 105mm macro lens (typical macro). Lens front to subject distance 140mm 1:1 closest possible. SB-600 lens front to subject 90mm (0.09m), any closer and it would have been in the frame.

No 1 - FEC -3


No 2 - FEC 0


No 3 - FEC +1


No 4 - Setup


Conclusion;
In TTL at the closest possible working distance of this 105mm lens and the flash in a very close position I would say it has a working range of 90mm (0.09m) upwards. At a guess I would say it's choice without my FEC was possibly 1/2 a stop out for this subject.

So for Art, I would suggest you ignore what the manual says re flash near range and distance and give it a try real close up