Canon R Camera

[rpcrowe]

Here are the PDF of specs for the new full frame Canon mirrorless camera. I'm guessing that this is a Canon released PDF since it carries the Canon Logo...

I have to take a dog for his after meal walk and don't have very much time to review the specifications.... I do like the Dual Pixel CMOS autofocus in the viewfinder. The Dual Pixel CMOS auto focus in the Live View of my 6D2 is really great! However, needing to use this in live view is a PITA in bright sun.

https://www.canonrumors.com/wp-conte...8/09/eos-r.pdf

In a really quick review of these PDF specifications, I cannot seem to determine the following. Maybe I have missed it:

1. Does the camera have one or two memory card slots?
2. Does this camera have an articulating LCD like the Canon 6D Mark 2 or the Canon M-50?
3. Is the LCD touch screen for both selecting focus points and for selecting menu items?
4. Can you use the eye level electronic viewfinder and the LCD at the same time such as on the M-50 where you can view the image using the eye level viewfinder and select the focus point using your thumb on the LCD?

I won't make any comments regarding 4K video since I don't intend to shoot video with my DSLR/Mirrorless cameras.

I noticed that this camera doesn't advertise EYE AF. However, the Dual Pixel CMOS AF on my 6D Mark 2 seems like it does focus on the eyes. I have been meaning to make a thorough test of this. The single point of the Dual Pixel CMOS AF can focus on the eyes exceptionally fast and accurately. However, using my 6D2 and the single point AF is pretty slow since, I cannot view through the LCD in bright sun and the selection of the AF point without touch screen implementation is pretty slow. #4 above would really solve that problem.

[rpcrowe]

I got answers to some of the above question:

1. one slot
2. yes
3. don't know but, I suspect both focus and menu selection will be possible.
4. don't know

Looks like no IBIS wbich is a bummer and a half. Wonder if it will have electronic stabilization for video like the 6D2?

Generally the selection of R lenses seems "more professionally oriented" than the opening selection of Nikon Z-glass. Wow! The new 28-70mm f/2 is a monster in size. But imagine f/2 on a zoom of that range. Great for shooting people. The slightly narrow 28mm side doesn't bother me a bit. I don't like much wider focal length than about 35mm for people and this lens system has an f/1.8 35mm lens with IS

I wonder how good the EVF is and how good the dynamic range is...

[pnodrog]

Your questions will be answered in a few days...

The interesting thing is after nearly 50 years of it being reasonably easy to adapt Nikon lenses to a Canon camera the opposite may now be true. Whether this is at all significant in the overall market remains to be seen. However there will be a path for current Canon or Nikon users with a valuable collection of lenses to utilize them on either of the mirror-less Canon or Nikon bodies. Canon users are far less locked into the system than they have been in the past.

[rpcrowe]

I was viewing a video on adapting Canon lenses to the Sony A7ii with the Metabones and Sigma MC11 adapters. Apparently, all is not a bed or roses and some adapters have trouble maintaining continuous AF.

I wonder just how well the Canon EF lenses will function with the new mirrorless camera and adapter.

IMO, autofocus is the basic building block of digital photography. You can talk all you want about manual focus. Digital cameras were not designed to work seamlessly with manual focus lenses as were the SLR cameras of the past. The 5-10x viewing in the viewfinder of the new camera would certainly aid that but, IMO, you are really taking a step backward by using manual focus lenses for anything but static subjects.

If I ever get a different camera, it must work with my present (mostly EF) Canon lenses. At my age, I'm not going to invest in a whole new set of glass.

[Tronhard]

Richard as one who has about $30k invested in Canon glass I am fairly confident they will not abandon their enormous base of EF users by offering an inferior connection to the EF series of lenses. They made that move back when they moved to the EOS system and I would expect that if someone suggested they do it again they would be invited to commit seppuku by much of their user base.

I am going to calmly wait for the product announcement and see what is on offer, what else can one do without unnecessary stress?

[Tronhard]

But wait there's more...

See this link for photos of the body, lenses and the adapter showing it mounting the EF100-400MkII with the MkIII 2x extender.
I couldn't resist...

https://www.canonwatch.com/category/rumors/canon-rumors/

[William W]

Thank you Richard for the pdf. Very interesting.
Thanks also for the additional link, Trev.

***

I think that Canon are sidelining their market reach (their only viable option), into yet another Lens Mount. (RF Mount).

That means TR&D into another cache of dedicated lenses, arguably not the best choice for Company shareholders.

I expect there will be very few new buyers into the Canon Mirror-less cameras: the bulk of those buying will be those who have money invested in a bag of EF and or EF-S Lenses.

Canon has not deviated from the pattern of the historic changing of their Lens Mounts: and thus spelling the subsequent death of previous excellent lenses.

On the other hand it is also arguable that's a strong and a viable marketing strategy. For those who want the next generation of Canon Cameras, then it has always been a new set of lenses, too.

In the latest two iterations of the EOS SYSTEM, Canon have made a two bob each-way bet by balancing the introduction of new lens mounts (EM and RF) with adapters and that is a definitive change toward compatibility and integration.

***

IMO, autofocus is the basic building block of digital photography. You can talk all you want about manual focus. Digital cameras were not designed to work seamlessly with manual focus lenses as were the SLR cameras of the past.

I agree with Richard, but only to a limited extent. And I have a slightly different interpretation.

I do agree that there are folk who rabbit on about Manual Focus - the same type of people will lecture about the purity of using M Mode, or how a real photographer will only use Prime Lenses.

The following is NOT any of that:

I think that Auto Focus is one basic building block of (most) modern photography. For one example, AF is an important element for 135 and Medium Format Film Photography. This distinction underscores the importance of how AF has made an impact across many forms of Photography.

Secondly, digital cameras' Viewfinders are (generally) less than suitable. Certainly some now are better than what we got in 2004. But lenses have changed too. Modern lenses, with AF with the added "Full Time Manual Focus" in the advertising hype, are for most practical uses, a joke, apropos "FTMF": the rotational throw of the Focus Turret is typically 90 degrees, or less; subsequently the Subject Distance Markings and DoF indications are ridiculous, if there at all; few have IR Focus Correction. So, my point being, it is not just the Digital SLR Cameras, but, additionally, the modern Lenses are not being designed for quality Manual Focus. Certainly for shooting action, Viewfinder Focus Confirmation for Manual Focus (those little red squares), leaves a lot to be desired.

Having stated those points (and as I mentioned on another thread) I have recently purchased an EOS M5. I also purchased the Lens Mount Adapter, so I can use my existing EF Mount Lenses. And all my EF Lenses work really well with the M5. The AF (when using an EF Mount Lens that has AF) is stunning, no complaints whatsoever. It does appear a little odd having a 70 to 200/2.8 mounted on a relatively small M5. And (importantly) I would NOT choose that rig to shoot Field Hockey anyway.

So I am one who has invested in Canon EF lenses and I was thinking about Mirror-less and how I would use those cameras. I love using my Fuji X100s for the past few years, and I found that I wanted more scope with my mirror-less lens cache. The choices were to either buy into an new system (top runner for me being Fuji) or buy Canon and use the (very fine) lenses that I already own. I went with Canon: but I also invested in some (fast) Manual Focus Lenses. These lenses are also Manual Aperture.

The two main features which are key for me buying a few Manual Focus Lenses for my M5 are:
1.cost to quality ratio (inexpensive/high quality);
2.size (small and dedicated EF-M Mount)

What I have found is, Manual Focus is quite suitable, in fact I find it quite easy with the M5. I use the Viewfinder and Manual Focus Peaking. The options for Focus Peaking are comprehensive and for my uses quite suitable for Portraiture both in static and moving shooting situations. (but as mentioned, I would not choose to use that rig for shooting Field Hockey).

Obviously I require a lens change when a different Focal Length is needed. That does not bother me, especially considering I typically set up one lens and use the Mirror-less gear for a purpose where the Shooting Scenarios don’t change that much or change quickly.

"Full Frame Canon Mirror-less" - not for me at this time. Too big. One of my interests is getting smaller gear: but, based upon the Canon's history of their Mirror-less range; and my now bedded down experience of my M5 (and M3 which I test drove), I think that the new Mirror-less Camera - will work fine with EF Lenses - I juts don't know how many people want one and for what purpose they'd use one - I think those are questions to be pondered, too.

I expect that Canon were driven by market forces into a Full Frame Mirror-less, but I am not sure what exactly the Profit to Investment ratio will be: and IF there's a recurrence of global money tightening (or worse), we might just see very few dedicated RF Lenses ever developed.

WW

[rpcrowe]

Frankly, I think that Canon fell on their sword when they opted, for a some reason (probably price and size) only to include one memory card slot. I think if this camera had not been so far advanced when Nikon released the Z-cameras and immediately began getting waves of static regarding the single card slots on those cameras, Canon might have had second thoughts about the single slot. It would not bother me personally but, would disturb a lot of folks who will be debating between the Sony A7iii and the R-Camera.

I was hoping for IBIS which would make some adapted lenses really viable. Imagine the Canon 400mm f/5.6L lens on a camera with IBIS.

I am still studying and deciding about the face recognition Dual Pixel CMOS AF on my 6D2. It seems, that this targets the eyes and gets the eyes in focus at least as much as the vaunted Eye Focus of the Sony cameras. If I come to the conclusion that I can trust this way of focusing for portraits, it will certainly make life easier when using an 85mm f/1.8, f/1.4 or f/1.2 lens...

Dual Pixel CMOS AF is the best thing since sliced bread. The problem with the 6D2 is that I can only use it in Live View and I personally have big time problems seeing my framing when using the LCD in bright sun. I remedied that by adding a SWIVI viewfinder which makes the LCD into a brilliant eye level viewfinder. However, it adds weight and size to the camera and negates the touch screen focusing. Canon apparently is adding some features found in the M-50 to their new R body. I hope that the M-50 capability of viewing with the EVF while selecting focus points with your thumb on the LCD is included in the R Cameras.

Supposedly, the dynamic range has been improved but, we will only learn that when the camera is tested.

The price will also be a factor. IMO, it will need to be competitive with the Sony A7iii. I heard a rumor someplace that the price may be about the same... somewhere around $2,000 to $2,500 U.S. Dollars in the USA. But, who knows?

[Tronhard]

Richard from what I have read this is not meant to be the 5DIV replacement, more like the 6DII. I bet there is a more fully spec'd FF MILC in the wings waiting to be announced at some later date. What is interesting to me is that they have drawn a clear line between the FF R mount and the EF-M lens group. So it seems to me there will now be a distinctly separate stream between the small MILCs and the FF / APS-C markets with adapters for the R and E mounts to allow EF and EF-S lenses to be used on both platforms.

[pnodrog]

I would be surprised if the market is big enough (or will even be prepared) to support both the EF-M mount and the R mount therefor the EF-M mount may eventually fade into oblivion. There is the possibility that the EF-M mount can survive for lightweight crop sensor camera's that will be unable to take advantage of the newer professional lenses that will inevitably become available for the R mount.

The mount flange distance to FP is 20mm for the Canon R mount, 18mm for the EF-M mount and 16mm for Nikon's new Z mount. Not a lot of difference for designing adapters but the Nikon Z mount should have the best chance.

[Tronhard]

Gidday Paul!

The thing that muddies the water right now is that the EF and EF-S lenses can be attached to BOTH the R and M mounts via adaptors, so they don't have to come up with a bunch of new lenses to engage a lot of lens owners with either body configuration. I find it hard to believe that Canon would introduce the M mount and then phase it out again so soon. Furthermore, as Bill and I have both experienced, there is a market for capable, small MILCs that don't have big lenses. I wonder if Canon have accepted the demise of the point and shoot and even compact camera and are hedging their bets on these two platforms, based in part on a common compatibility with a huge number of legacy lenses. Not forgetting of course that there is no hint that they will not continue to produce conventional DSLRs.

We live in interesting times...

[Donald]

I wonder if Canon have accepted the demise of the point and shoot and even compact camera and are hedging their bets on these two platforms, ...

That indeed is a fascinating theory. I suppose camera's in phones has dealt the P & S camera a fatal blow; and even perhaps compacts. I had never thoughts about or realised that until it was pointed out here.

[pnodrog]

Gidday Paul!

The thing that muddies the water right now is that the EF and EF-S lenses can be attached to BOTH the R and M mounts via adaptors, so they don't have to come up with a bunch of new lenses to engage a lot of lens owners with either body configuration. I find it hard to believe that Canon would introduce the M mount and then phase it out again so soon. Furthermore, as Bill and I have both experienced, there is a market for capable, small MILCs that don't have big lenses. I wonder if Canon have accepted the demise of the point and shoot and even compact camera and are hedging their bets on these two platforms, based in part on a common compatibility with a huge number of legacy lenses. Not forgetting of course that there is no hint that they will not continue to produce conventional DSLRs.

We live in interesting times...

Yes, and now it should also be possible to design an adapter for them (EF, EF-S) to be used on a Nikon Z mount. However it will not be possible to use R lenses on a M mount or visa versa (unless some cunning optical elements are added to the adapter). There will no compelling reason due to only crop coverage to attach M lenses to a R mount but it maybe frustrating not to be able to adapt a professional R mount lens to a M mount camera.

Regardless neither Nikon nor Canon will be able to adapt the lenses designed for the new mounts to the older F, EF or EF-S cameras.

We should both review this thread in 10 years time....

[Tronhard]

Yes, I agree that the adapters will likely be a one-way street to allow EF and EF-S lenses to work on the new S mount and thus make the MILC body more acceptable, and the same goes in the other direction already to allow those same lenses to work on the diminutive M mount. But no likelihood of the EF-M series connecting to the S mount - why would they... The EF-M lenses are a very different kettle of fish compared to the very big and high-end lenses for the new S mount.

Despite all that the rumour mill still suggests there will be and EOS 90D, a 7DMkIII and an M5mkII - although when (if at all) is yet to be revealed...

[rpcrowe]

While certainly not perfect by a long stretch, the R-Camera from Canon seems, at least on paper, equal or possibly a bit superior (especially along the Dual Pixel CMOS AF lines) to the new NIKON Z-Cameras. The R lens lineup is certainly (in my not so humble opinion) at least a small cut above the Z lens group being offered by Nikon. The 28-70mm f/2, although a beast in size and weight is ground breaking for a zoom lens of that focal range with its f/2 aperture.

However, the R System offerings have simply not stirred up the hoopla that the Z Camera/lens offerings have generated. Nikon fanboys have simply been ejaculating with excitement over the Z cameras.

Does that mean Canon users are more satisfied with their EOS DSLR cameras and EF/EFS lenses? Or is is simply the way that Nikon has presented the Z-system

IMO, both Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have a long way to go before they match the combined Sony offering of A7iii, A7Riii and A9 and the proposed A6700 (which some pundits call a mini A-9) is expected to blow any other crop sensor camera out of the water...

Despite the Dual Pixel CMOS AF, the R camera's auto focus has been described as strictly second generation Sony for still photography at least this young but, seemingly knowledgeable fellow thinks so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ078QYpy8s
and IMO there are also many things lacking in the Z camera.

[Tronhard]

However, the R System offerings have simply not stirred up the hoopla that the Z Camera/lens offerings have generated. Nikon fanboys have simply been ejaculating with excitement over the Z cameras.

Does that mean Canon users are more satisfied with their EOS DSLR cameras and EF/EFS lenses? Or is is simply the way that Nikon has presented the Z-system

Nikon has not been without its critics, I have seen a lot of mixed reactions in the web since the announcement about IBIS, lack of a second memory card etc. - pretty much what critics are saying about the Canon at the moment actually!

Second: Nikon's Marketing team came out with those teaser videos, obviously to stoke the fires of interest, and finally it WAS the first of the two to announce, which inevitably gave them the wave of excitement and speculation all to themselves.

I think the main reason for the lack of reaction is that the official announcement has not been made yet and people (like us) are speculating. I think there will be more reaction after the official release and then the press will get in on the act and start playing the Nikon - Canon - Sony comparison game and wondering who is most desperate, who will go out of business and is this the death of the DSLR?

I don't think EITHER Nikon or Canon have fired off their best shots yet, I wonder if we will see uprated real pro cameras (with dual cards etc.) released in the not too distant future. These cameras will interest the enthusiasts and maybe some pros, and that is a good start but for top end pros I think there will be a bedding down time for the kinks to be ironed out and then we will see the heavy artillery rolled out.

[DanK]

I'm hoping that they also have a higher-end APS-C mirrorless in the works. I'd be VERY tempted by that. My main interest in mirrorless is weight and size. Not that I need it anyway, so I can wait...

[Tronhard]

I'm hoping that they also have a higher-end APS-C mirrorless in the works. I'd be VERY tempted by that. My main interest in mirrorless is weight and size. Not that I need it anyway, so I can wait...

From what I have read the new unit is both a FF and APS-C capable camera. It can be switched to read only part of the sensor I understand. This may be either a stop gap or a new policy to have one body to do both functions. My Nikon Df is a FF body but can switch to crop mode via the menu, so it has been done.

There are three adapters for lenses. The first allows EF lenses to go on the body. The second also does that but has a slot for filters behind the lens, and finally an adaptor for EF-S lenses.

[DanK]

That's consistent with what I read, but I don't want the physical size or cost of a FF if I intend to use it as a crop.

[rpcrowe]

Canon is not really going to need to compete with Nikon Z-Cameras... The camera will need to compete with the Sony A7iii. Since you will need to use an adapter for EF lenses whichever camera you will buy.

Along the same lines... Here is a really good (IMO) video using various Canon lenses on the A7iii with a fifth generation Metabones adapter. That looks pretty good and the user would have in camera IBIS and two card slots...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABL5cmZO1oE