Colour management settings when printing

[billtils]

All the advice I've seen on this says "Allow software to manage colour" for the best results for colour prints and "Allow printer to manage colour" for the best results for B&W prints. Personal experience indicates this is sound advice, but I haven't been able to find a good explanation of why - can anyone help?

Thanks

[DanK]

Interesting question. That is what I have often read as well, and it is consistent with my experience as well. I did a direct comparison with one of my earlier printers, printing a black and white image both ways, and the one printed with the software controlling color had a slight but noticeable color cast. I had read somewhere that the reason is that the printer's firmware will avoid using color cartridges for B&W prints, but according to a post by Andrew Rodney, that's incorrect, at least for some Epson printers (which I don't use).

[Manfred M]

My understanding from someone who was involved in the development of printer drivers and firmware for photo printers is similar to what Dan has written, except his view was that Epson printers used only black and gray inks when set to B&W mode / printer manages colors whereas Canon uses coloured inks as well.

In my testing, doing a B&W print with Photoshop controls color settings, Epson printers have a very slight green cast. Canon printers using B&W (printer determines colour as well as Photoshop controls color) resulted in prints that had a tiny bit of a magenta cast that was noticeable. I only used one paper, so I don't know if the results vary by paper type.

When it comes to branded papers where the paper profiles are embedded in the printer, I got good results using "printer manages colors", but I tend to prefer what I see coming out of "Photoshop images colors". When it comes to third party papers and there are no printer profiles in firmware, then the only way to go is with "Photoshop manages color". Trying a "close" paper in firmware seems to give me poor results.

[DanK]

When I tried printing B&W letting Lightroom manage colors using a Canon Pro-100, I also got a magenta cast. I got no color cast at all when I let the printer manage colors. The test image was this:

https://photos.smugmug.com/Patterns/...04-Edit-XL.jpg

I'm not certain, but I think the paper was Moab Exhibition Luster.

Since then, I have always let the printer manage colors for B&W, and I always let software manage it when I print color. That is the only way to use the appropriate ICC profile for the paper/printer combination.

[billtils]

Since then, I have always let the printer manage colors for B&W, and I always let software manage it when I print color. That is the only way to use the appropriate ICC profile for the paper/printer combination.

Dan

That is my experience too (also with a Conon Pro-100) but the question was not so much about what happens as why.

A couple of responses suggest that when "software manages colours" is selected the software will include coloured ink(s) in the directions to the printer but "printer manages colours" will either direct it to use only black or if other colours are included they will be at a low level.

[DanK]

That is my experience too (also with a Conon Pro-100) but the question was not so much about what happens as why.

I know; see my first post. I was just confirming that what Manfred observed wasn't specific to his printer or paper.

It does seem that when software manages colors, the printer uses more color ink than it should, but I don't understand why this is the case. After all, I don't get a magenta cast in whites and light grays when I print color prints. I know that Tim Gray wrote about this in the past, but the one posting of his on this topic that I saved doesn't have the explanation.

In any event, we have concrete evidence that this is the case for two different printer brands and two different software packages (albeit both Adobe), and Manfred prints from Photoshop and I print from Lightroom.

[Manfred M]

Bill - the issue is likely metamerism; where the colours look slightly different depending on the lighting conditions.

In the B&W image cases, the images look fine when viewed straight on , but we really notice these issues when looking at them from the side. About 15 years ago some of the earlier Epson pigment printers had an issue called "bronzing", where there was a slight gold tone to the inks when looked at from an off-axis view. Ink set reformulation solved this issue, so this is not something we have seen in the last couple of generations of printers.

Is this an Adobe print engine issue? I can't say for sure, but it strikes me that the printer manufacturers have found a solution for this, which is why we choose the "Let printer manage colors" option, whereas Adobe software has not. Unfortunately, I don't know if any other photo editing software makers deal with this any better.

We have a simple solution that works, so I really don't worry about it too much other when the topic comes up for discussion. I've consulted with people that print a lot more than I do, have done so for a lot longer and at very high quality levels. They don't know either and one of them definitely has contacts at Adobe and Epson.

[DanK]

the issue is likely metamerism

I don't think so. The Pro 100 I used for a test uses dye-based inks, and if I recall (I long ago discarded the test prints), the magenta cast was apparent even looking straight on. I think the issue has to be one of color management.

In any case, the happy ending is that the problem is soluble: using the printer's firmware for B&W prints. In the case of Canon printers operated from PCs, switching back and forth requires two changes: both a change in the software and a change in the dialogs for the printer's firmware. There is a specific option for B&W printing in the top page of the printer dialog. When you want a color print controlled by software, you have to uncheck that and then separately turn "color matching" to none on a different page.

[Manfred M]

I don't think so. The Pro 100 I used for a test uses dye-based inks, and if I recall (I long ago discarded the test prints), the magenta cast was apparent even looking straight on. I think the issue has to be one of color management.

In any case, the happy ending is that the problem is soluble: using the printer's firmware for B&W prints. In the case of Canon printers operated from PCs, switching back and forth requires two changes: both a change in the software and a change in the dialogs for the printer's firmware. There is a specific option for B&W printing in the top page of the printer dialog. When you want a color print controlled by software, you have to uncheck that and then separately turn "color matching" to none on a different page.

Dan - the Canon images that I saw were from a Prograph Pro 1000, which I believe is a pigment based printer. The Epson images I looked at came from the StylusPro 3880, also a pigment based printer. Metamerism is more likely to occur in pigment inks that sit on the surface than dye based inks that penetrate the substrate fibres.

[DanK]

Metamerism is more likely to occur in pigment inks that sit on the surface than dye based inks that penetrate the substrate fibres.

exactly my point. I saw the same patterns with a Pro 100, which uses dye-based inks. I also think I saw it straight on. Both suggest that metamerism is probably not the culprit. And for that matter, metamerism would only create this contrast if there is something different about how the ink is laid down with the two controls. I think that is the core of the OP question.

The prograf 1000 does use pigment inks. That's what I have now. However, I haven't bothered to run a test with this one.

[billtils]

... it strikes me that the printer manufacturers have found a solution for this, which is why we choose the "Let printer manage colors" option, whereas Adobe software has not. Unfortunately, I don't know if any other photo editing software makers deal with this any better.

We have a simple solution that works, so I really don't worry about it too much other when the topic comes up for discussion. I've consulted with people that print a lot more than I do, have done so for a lot longer and at very high quality levels. They don't know either and one of them definitely has contacts at Adobe and Epson.

Manfred

I can only comment on one other editing software, CaptureOne Pro, but it behaves the same way.

And yes indeed on "don't worry about it too much" - I don't, but it's in my nature to prefer explanations ...

[DanK]

And yes indeed on "don't worry about it too much" - I don't, but it's in my nature to prefer explanations ...

Mine too, but I haven't been able to find anything. Moreover, I found this from Epson:

Black/Grayscale or Grayscale is not recommended for printing black-and-white photos

I print with a Canon, so I'll ignore that page from Epson, try to ignore my frustration at not being able to figure out what is under the hood, and just stick with what works.

[Manfred M]

Mine too, but I haven't been able to find anything. Moreover, I found this from Epson:

This makes perfect sense if one thinks about it; even though colour inkjet printers use am extended CMYK ink set, the firmware means that these devices act as an RGB device with a colour gamut on certain papers that exceeds the Adobe RGB colour space. This is no different than trying to use a Black / Gray-scale or Gray-scale image on our RGB computer screens. These devices do require an RGB input too.

Just to complicate (and clarify) matters; Epson does manufacture and market CYMK inkjet printers that are primarily designed for the pre-press industry to proof images. In the case of the P800 that I use, they also make a P800 Designer Edition for this industry:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...r_edition.html

[Manfred M]

Bill / Dan - just to add to the confusion. Here is the edge of a B&W print where I had set the colour management to "Printer controls color". I was doing some testing with the Moab Slickrock paper and noticed these streaks (likely do to using the thin paper feed or using the wrong platen gap). There are traces of cyan, yellow and magenta inks on top of the black inks visible here near the edges of the print. None of these smears are visible in the main body of the image.

Not what I would have expected...

[loosecanon]

In my experience with Canon printers, different papers will give differnt warmths of monochrome print. A greyscale calibrated profile will correct these with coloured inks. Ticking the monochrome inks box will use just black and grey inks

[DanK]

In my experience with Canon printers, different papers will give differnt warmths of monochrome print. A greyscale calibrated profile will correct these with coloured inks. Ticking the monochrome inks box will use just black and grey inks

Separately from the different warmth of the paper stocks themselves?

Where to you get a grayscale calibrated profile? I don't recall seeing these on the websites of the paper manufacturers whose papers I use. They just have their regular ICC profiles there.

[loosecanon]

I produce my own printer profiles. There is an option to prouduce greyscale profiles.