Medium format lenses

Hi.
At the risk of appearing to be a complete ignoramus - and I am in this area - how do I tell if I'm looking at a medium format lens? Are there any distinguishing characteristics that would make me say "Ah - you're medium format!" Reason is that I'm thinking of a wee project and am told I need a medium format lens for it.
Ta, in hope, K.

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Originally Posted by Klickit

Hi.
At the risk of appearing to be a complete ignoramus - and I am in this area - how do I tell if I'm looking at a medium format lens? Are there any distinguishing characteristics that would make me say "Ah - you're medium format!" Reason is that I'm thinking of a wee project and am told I need a medium format lens for it.
Ta, in hope, K.

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Are you sure you mean 'medium format lens' or medium format camera, i.e. with a sensor/film greater than 35mm?

Peter

Yep - medium format lens. :)

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Originally Posted by Klickit

Yep - medium format lens. :)

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Can you explain what the project is and why you have been told you need this lens?

Hi, Klickit;

It would be helpful, as Peter said, if you can post some information about your project. The reason everyone's wary of giving a simple answer is that the question is unusual.

A medium format lens is a lens for a medium format camera. A medium format camera is something like 6x9cm frames (on film or in a digital back). This is as compared to 35mm film, which is 2.4x3.5 cm, or a DSLR sensor, which is that size or smaller.

As far as I know, the lenses are specific to camera lines, although I've never used one. So if the project is to do something with a lens on an optical lab bench or something, then any medium format lens will do, but if it's to attach to a camera or other piece of gear, you'll probably need to know what specific line of lenses you should be looking at.

Cheers,
Rick

Fair enough comments.
I'm planning on making a poor man's tilt-shift/lensbaby to go on my D80. I've hankered after one of these for a long time, but cannot justify the expense of what will essentially be a play lens. I have had a look around the web for the type of lens used for this kind of conversion and people generally recommend medium format lenses. This is apparently because if you use a lens off a digital cam such as a Nikon D80 or whatever, you get too much vignetting for it to be much use. I'm purely guessing that a medium format lens will be wider at the attaching end that my current D80 lenses. But I wouldn't know one on seeing at it, so would like advice on what to look for. I'll be mainly haunting 2nd hand shops, as I'd need to see what the quality of the glass is etc.

That sounds very cool! If you see Hasselblad, that will always be medium format, because that's all they do, AFAIK. Unfortunately, other manufacturers who do medium format (Pentax or Rollei, for example) also do 35mm. I suspect you'll need to search online to find out what lines are medium format.

Cheers,
Rick

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Originally Posted by Klickit

Fair enough comments.
I'm planning on making a poor man's tilt-shift/lensbaby to go on my D80.

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Don't get me wrong but AFAIK lensbaby are not that expensive. I don't think you will save money on buying a medium format lens + other stuff to make tilt/shift possible. From the other hand building a lens yourself can have a lot of fun.

I think you're right Hans

However, there is a massive difference between a lens baby and a tilt shift as might be used for architectural shots.

So we need to know which it is Klickit wants :)

Medium format lenses are quite big; for a given focal length, your unlikely to mistake one for a 35mm one!

I sold some recently on e-Bay
If you can from there (NZ, I mean) have a look at item #120564834837 on e-Bay.co.uk

Cheers,

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a single shot where a lensbaby has been used, that had I shot it I would have bothered to keep. I'm afraid that the concept just doesn't work for me.

Thanks for all your answers. :)

Rick - Thanks for the Hasselblad tip. I do need to do some more research here. Google images may help. :)

Hans - they are generally way above my meagre budget. There might be some older, cheaper ones coming up for re-sale though. Worth a look. My advantage in the cost pay off is that I have a clever engineer on hand, who has offered to do all the plates and twiddly bits for me. How cool is that! :)

Dave - I wasn't aware that tilt-shift and Lensbaby have separate purposes, so I'll have to have a think about that one. I was hoping to cover all bases, but...:( I looked at ebay UK, but think they may not sell to NZ. We do have a similar thing called TradeMe that I haunt.

Colin - fair enough, different things work/don't work for different people, but I was particularly taken with this shot.
http://thecharmoflight.com/category/lensbabies
http://thecharmoflight.com/wp-conten...GB3187_pcw.jpg
To me, it has a very ethereal feel.

cheers,
K.

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Originally Posted by Colin Southern

For what it's worth, I've yet to see a single shot where a lensbaby has been used, that had I shot it I would have bothered to keep. I'm afraid that the concept just doesn't work for me.

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To be honest Colin, I had one for a while. Also I was very fascinated by the created images with it.
I had the intention to use it during wedding shoots but I could not work quick enough with it to catch the right moment. These lenses are totally different in use then the common lenses. So after some months I sold it without regrets.

Klickkit, again I wonder if you are able to buy a medium format lens much cheaper then the price of a new Lensbabies ($ 350). I think you should look for a 50 mm or 60 mm MF lens and these are normally not the cheapest ones.If you choose Hasselblad these are mostly top of the line in quality and also price. I suggest to look for Kiev or Pentacon lenses. Different in quality then Hasselblad but there you might have more luck in a bargain. I hope you succeed in it and wish you luck. Please keep us posted how things go. I'm really curious about this project.

Hans, I hope that I might fall over a cheaper, but reasonable lens. A few years ago, my father gave away his very good quality film camera and lens to a student he met who had a passing interest in photography, so I might get lucky! I really don't expect to end up with something that has the element quality of a real Lensbaby. It will be something I'll just have to keep my eyes open for.

But you have given me two more lens names to add to my list, thanks. :) That is part of the problem - not knowing what to look out for. So far, I've got Bronica, Contax, Fuji, Mamiya, Pentax, Rollei and Hasselblad on my "Search" list at TradeMe.

I'll certainly post up progress as and when it happens, if people are interested.

This looks useful if you friend can't deliver, lenses and mounts for 35mm, found from Google search, no idea whether they're reliable (company or their lenses).

http://araxfoto.com/lenses/

Cheers,

Hmmm...ready made adapters - nice find, Dave and thanks for looking that out for me. Never would have thought these would be available.

Now - new question - can a 35mm lens also be medium format? Reason for question is that I've asked a question on TradeMe "Is this lens 35mm or medium format" and the guy says "Yes to both"
Here's a link so you can see what I'm saying.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=289541894
I'm a bit bewildered, as I thought they were different lenses entirely.:confused:

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Originally Posted by Klickit

Now - new question - can a 35mm lens also be medium format? Reason for question is that I've asked a question on TradeMe "Is this lens 35mm or medium format" and the guy says "Yes to both"
Here's a link so you can see what I'm saying.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=289541894
I'm a bit bewildered, as I thought they were different lenses entirely.:confused:

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Then that must be a medium format lens. This means it has a large image circle which can cover both the 35mm sensor and medium format sensor. A better explaination can be found in the tutorial Daivd linked you to.

A large format lens can be mounted on a smaller format sensor, but not the other way round (unless you want circular images) Eg. This and this.

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Originally Posted by Klickit

I'm planning on making a poor man's tilt-shift/lensbaby to go on my D80. I've hankered after one of these for a long time, but cannot justify the expense of what will essentially be a play lens.

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A very simple option is to rent one. Since you're also from New Zealand, perhaps Colin could recommend some reputable camera rental lens shops.

Maybe one other link that might be interesting:
http://www.zoerk.com/

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Then that must be a medium format lens. This means it has a large image circle which can cover both the 35mm sensor and medium format sensor. A better explaination can be found in the tutorial Daivd linked you to.

A large format lens can be mounted on a smaller format sensor, but not the other way round

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Making more sense now. Thanks. :)

Hans - another interesting link. Surprising what turns up when a bit of digging is done. :)

Another reason to use a medium format lens for messing about with is the mounting flange to film distance is generally larger with a medium format camera to allow for the bigger camera body. This means that on a 35mm or DSLR, there is space to make the tilt/shift bit fit and still acheive focus.

Well, I have bought a lens for this. Sight unseen, but it is the medium format/35mm Hanimex 28 f/2.8 that I posted a link to the other day. I've just read Jonathon's post re the mounting flange and hope that the one I've bought will be suitable. :eek:

http://backup.cambridgeincolour.com/.../128993063.jpg

I realise that this lens is not top of the line, or anywhere near it, but it will hopefully do as a first foray into modded/home-made jobs.

I'll keep you posted on progress, as and when it happens.

Hi Kit,

I don't want to frighten or disappoint you but AFAIK this is a 35 mm lens. Depending on your digital body it can be useable or not. If your body has a APS-C Sensor this lens can also be used for tilt/shift.
If the body however is 35 mm AKA full frame the lens circle just covers the 35 mm area and you will not have to much playground with shift.

Normally when talking about medium format lenses these are designed for 4.5x6 cm till 6x9 cm format film size and have a bigger image circle that gives you more play in tilt/shift.

Ooops. Should have looked at the link earlier. The PK mount isn't a medium format at all. Its a Pentax K mount for a 35mm SLR.

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Originally Posted by hansm

Hi Kit,

I don't want to frighten or disappoint you but AFAIK this is a 35 mm lens. Depending on your digital body it can be useable or not. If your body has a APS-C Sensor this lens can also be used for tilt/shift.
If the body however is 35 mm AKA full frame the lens circle just covers the 35 mm area and you will not have to much playground with shift.

Normally when talking about medium format lenses these are designed for 4.5x6 cm till 6x9 cm format film size and have a bigger image circle that gives you more play in tilt/shift.

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Hi Hans. My camera is D80 which has the APS-C sensor. It possibly won't be the ideal lens for the project, as the lenses used are generally around the 50mm range, but it was the only one in lots of searching that fitted both my budget and gemeral requirements. Once I started looking at true medium format lenses on places such as Keh.com, I realised that they would be way too expensive to use as an experiment.

Hi Kit,

Good news you have a APS-C sensor. This lens will be suitable because it has a circle for 35 mm sensors and it will give you enough room for tilt/shift.
I have seen some pics with this lens and the bokeh looks very nice.
Good luck with the project.
When ready can you post some pictures?

I certainly will, Hans.

The lens arrived yesterday, along with an email from the seller, apologising for a fault that he hadn't detected until it was sold. The aperture ring works nice and smoothly, but it is broken and set wide open. He was very apologetic and has refunded almost all the money, so I at least have a test lens to see if the idea will work in principle. An initial snap taken basically with the lens hand held up close to the camera shows some possibility, but it may only be good for very close subjects. It is a start, anyway.

Could it be a bit stuck? The PK lenses have a lever on the back so that the lens stays wide open until you hit the shutter.
A good tap might free it off.

It's past stuck - I can actually see the end of a wee spring that has come loose. It flops in and out of view, depending on which way I tilt the lens and the wee aperture lever just sits where you put it, instead of snapping back into place. If I get brave, I might even borrow the engineer's tiny screwdriver set and dis-assemble it. It ended up costing me $15.50NZ ($10.50US)(8.38Euro)(7.27UK) so can almost be regarded as expendable.

Update: The lens I bought sort of works, in a Pooh Bear kind of way, but wasn't really going to do the job I wanted. I found that the medium format lenses were too expensive to buy for purely experimental purposes and was all ready to give up on this front, but then I found a second hand G3 Lensbaby on TradeMe. It came complete with a separate wide angle lens and 2 macro extensions for way less than the price of a new Lensbaby, let alone one with all the additions. I'm just starting to experiment with it and it's a tricky wee beast to use. Doesn't connect electronically with the camera, which I didn't realise, so manual focus, my pet hate, is the deal. But it's probably time I had a new challenge, anyway. :)

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but I was particularly taken with this shot.

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If you have a 50mm lens (or any kens for that matter) kicking around reverse it and push the front end of the lens against the body flange so that no light gets in. You get an incredibly thin DoF. It is best if you use the lens wide open or pretty near.

These shots were taken with a 50mm Zuiko f/1.8 and you can pick them up for next to nothing. If you want to get really snazzy you can buy a reversing ring to suit you camera system. I did not take as much care as I should have with these but you get the gist.

http://backup.cambridgeincolour.com/...27_AvZkJ-L.jpg

http://backup.cambridgeincolour.com/...53_Rhjgh-L.jpg

http://backup.cambridgeincolour.com/...83_E4fLV-L.jpg

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Originally Posted by Wirefox

If you have a 50mm lens (or any kens for that matter) kicking around reverse it and push the front end of the lens against the body flange so that no light gets in. You get an incredibly thin DoF. It is best if you use the lens wide open or pretty near.

These shots were taken with a 50mm Zuiko f/1.8 and you can pick them up for next to nothing. If you want to get really snazzy you can buy a reversing ring to suit you camera system. I did not take as much care as I should have with these but you get the gist.

http://backup.cambridgeincolour.com/...27_AvZkJ-L.jpg

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This one I especially like. I have heard about the reversed lens technique and will try it once we are a bit more time-rich. Thanks, Steve. :)

Basically, all reflex cameras are built upon the earlier concepts of miniature reflexes, with about the same flange distance. Nikon cameras share the bayonet mount of older models dating back to the late fifties. Therefore, any lens for a 35mm reflex cannot be adapted into a tilt-shift assembly and still focus to large distances. It would only focus very close when the extra hardware is put twixt camera and lens.

However, lensbabies come in two different flavours. There is a Lensbaby Composer, which although it will not shift, tilts. Unlike the Lensbaby Muse, which needs support to stay in place, it remains where you set it, so it may be used for controlling the focus plane. The lens is a glass lens of better quality than the other Lensbaby, the focal length is 50 mm and it focuses to infinity.

A medium format lens would be rather cumbersome and difficult to convert into tilt-shift, and moreover it is likely to have a rather long focal length, where the advantage of shifting would not be very evident, but where tilting could be used to enhance depth of field, just as in a view camera.

There is a Russian lens that is not always available, but which tilts and shifts any direction, the Hartblei Super Rotator 35 mm. Not really cheap, but not as expensive as Nikon lenses that only shift. A drawback is the protruding flash on the camera body that interferes with movements, but some of the problems may be solved by mounting the camera in odd positions, as upside down, to enable some movements.