Hand held light meter

[Mike Buckley]

I know when I take a reading put it in camera that when I get home the image will be correctly exposed.

If you're referring to making a landscape photo, which is how this most recent discussion began, I don't think there is a light meter made in the world that would give me that level of confidence. That's despite that I consider myself at the very least reasonably proficient at using light meters.

It has been stated above that by the time you take a reading and shoot the light may have changed but that also applies if you shoot then look at the back of camera at either a Jpeg image or a histogram and decide it's not quite right and have to shoot again.

That was my statement. It was made in the context of Manfred's statement that in most landscape scenes he would use Aperture priority metering. I would do the same.

Let's assume the light changes while I review my histogram and that my histogram indicates that I have underexposed by 1/2 stop. I can use the exposure compensation to adjust accordingly. When I retake the photo under different lighting conditions, the camera will automatically adjust for that change and will also use my increased exposure. In most situations, the resulting exposure will be as I want it without having to meter the scene again. If the nature of the lighting change requires that I change my method of metering, I am no worse off than when using a handheld meter and I think for the reasons explained by Manfred and William I am far better off.

I think the for and against the use of a light meter debate is like politics or religion in debate, never ending!!! Make your own mind up and go with it.

This discussion has not been a debate about whether to use a handheld light meter; it has been a discussion about whether a handheld light meter or a camera's light meter is more effective when shooting landscapes and why. Some of the points made in the discussion have been compelling to me and some have made no sense based on my practical experience in the field.

As for making your own mind up and going with it, that suggests a closed mind to me and is not my approach to anything.

[Manfred M]

OK, I use a Sekonic L758 and IMO best investment I made next to camera,lenses and tripod.
Todays cameras do have very good metering systems but IMO cannot if you want to be accurate beat a light meter.
I no when I take a reading put it in camera that when I get home the image will be correctly exposed.
It has been stated above that by the time you take a reading and shoot the light may have changed but that also applies if you shoot then look at the back of camera at either a Jpeg image or a histogram and decide it's not quite right and have to shoot again.
I think the for and against the use of a light meter debate is like politics or religion in debate, never ending!!!
Make your own mind up and go with it.
Russ

Russ - let me correct your assumptions about hand-held light meters versus the built in camera ones, as you are not correct on that count. I am assuming that you are using reflective, rather than incident mode when you write about manually metering your shots.

First of all, most current light meters on the market are primarily incident light meters (including flash meter) which have added reflective capabilities because adding this functionality has a very low additional cost. Your Sekonic L758 has very similar functionality to my Sekonic L358, except that it has both a radio trigger for studio strobes and a 1° spot meter in the same package. My L358 has these as optional extras (and yes, I've upgraded it so that I do have these functionalities).

Camera light meters are definitely more sophisticated than you give credit for. Nikon (for years now) and the most recent Canon camera models use three colour metering, whereas the handheld units are monochrome only.

1. The key advantage of metering the colour channels individually is that the camera's metering system can bias the exposure when there is a blown out (or blocked) channel, whereas a hand-held meter cannot.

2. Camera metering is based on the light entering the camera through the lens, so the FoV in the metering is identical to the lens setting that you are using, rather than the single built in angle of view that your light meter has built in. On your handheld meter, you are going to get an average result for a medium wide angle lens, so if you are zoomed in using a longer lens, it is quite possible to get an incorrect metering; and

3. Your hand-held meter will give you a reading that is accurate at the time you have taken it and change the camera settings. Your built-in meter will track changes in lighting conditions to the point where you press the shutter release. In situations where there are rapidly changing lighting conditions, your hand-held reading could be off significantly.

As John, Bill, Mike and I have already stated, we cannot see any reason to use a handheld meter for landscape photography. Your camera will give you identical, and often better meter readings than your hand-held reflective meter will for this type of shooting. For subjects where you use incident metering (studio or subject photography), incident meters can definitely have advantages, especially in multi-light source situations.

[Mike Buckley]

the single built in angle of view that your light meter has built in

Do the specifications of your light meter provide the angle of view it uses? I ask because it seems that knowing that detail could be helpful. It has been a long time since I have used a handheld meter, so such detailed information may not be helpful.

[xpatUSA]

2. Camera metering is based on the light entering the camera through the lens, so the FoV in the metering is identical to the lens setting that you are using, rather than the single built in angle of view that your light meter has built in. On your handheld meter, you are going to get an average result for a medium wide angle lens, so if you are zoomed in using a longer lens, it is quite possible to get an incorrect metering . .

I have wondered about that (light-meter FOV), since I've never owned one and didn't inherit my Dads.

My GH1, like most modern cameras, has many ways to meter: from quick and dirty (spot) all the way up to a kajillion points metered with incredible intelligence. While I myself am a spot-meister normally - in intelligent metering mode (or whatever they call it), watching the metered points showing up on the LCD when the button is half-pressed can be quite entertaining.

[Manfred M]

Mike - I suspect you will have to look up the specific light meter to figure this out.

On my Sekonic L-358, I have to remove the incident light metering dome and replace it with an reflective reading attachment. According to my user's manual reads, this reads at 54°.

[Manfred M]

Geri - The one statement you make that I find a bit worrying is that you suggest that the camera makes the decisions for you. The only operating mode where this happens is "auto". That mode gives you about as much control as your original Brownie...

Try switching to "A" mode, or aperture priority mode. You seem to be selecting your aperture and then looking for the corresponding shutter speed using your handheld meter. Aperture priority mode lets you set the aperture you want and the camera then selects the corresponding shutter speed, for a given ISO. This is exactly what you are doing when you are shooting on manual, except that you are entering all the parameters by hand. The "command dial" that the top right corner of the back of your camera lets you do this.

I think the issue comes down to you not understanding the camera and relying on your hand-held meter as a crutch. You're photography is going to be severely limited until you figure out how to use your camera properly.

Let me throw an analogy at you to try to tell you where I am coming from.

When a young child transitions from his or her tricycle to his or her first "real" two-wheeled bicycle, parents often equip it with two outrigger style "training wheels". These help keep the child from tipping over and at least give the child the illusion that they are riding a proper two wheeled bike. We know that this is an illusion, as the handling, from balance to steering to braking are completely different when the bike does not have the training wheels.

So eventually, the training wheels come off and the child takes a few tumbles while learning how to ride "properly". I'm afraid you are at the training wheel state with your handheld meter. Get rid of it (figuratively) and start learning how your camera works and you will become a better and more confident photographer. If not, it's like keeping those training wheels on and the child will never become a truly competent cyclist.

As for posting some of my work; check the link in my signature line, and you will see some of my better work. Any of the studio shots were done with a handheld light meter in incident mode. I'll post a few shots, just to give you some idea of my work.



Sunrise at Annapurna South; Nepal - Panasonic GX7 (mFT) - ISO 200 using Lumix 14-140mm (64 focal length = 128mm FF equiv) at f/8 at 1/125th. Shot in Program mode. Minimal PP





Crepuscular rays over rice fields near Damroh, Arunachal Prasdesh, India - Panasonic GX7 (mFT) - ISO 200 using Lumix 14-140mm (25mm focal length = 50mm FF equiv) at f/5.7 at 1/320th sec. Shot in Aperture Priority mode Some PP to bring out the details of the back-lit mountains. No significant PP of the foreground.





Sunrise over the Ganges River, Varanasi, India - Panasonic GX7 (mFT) - ISO 500 using Lumix 14-140mm (41mm focal length = 81mm Ff equivalent) at f/5.3 at 1/640th sec. Shot in shutter priority mode. Minimal PP





Lock Station 13 - Rideau Canal, Ottawa Canada at "Blue Hour" - Nikon D800 (FF) - ISO 100 using Nikkor f/2.8 14-24mm at 15mm focal length at f/16 at 4s (using a tripod). Shot using Aperture Priority mode. Minimal PP other than B&W conversion.





Tiger's Nest Monastery through the clouds; Paro, Bhutan - Panasonic GX7 (mFT) - ISO 250 using Lumix 14-140mm (140mm focal length = 280mm FF equiv.) at f/7.1 at 1/320th sec. Shot in Aperture Priority mode. Minimal PP.





Dominion Arboretum, Ottawa Canada - Spring Blossoms - Panasonic GX7 (mFT) - ISO 200 using Lumix 14-140mm (41mm focal length = 82mm FF equiv.) at f/10 at 1/60th sec. Shot in Aperture Priority mode. Minimal PP. Slight increase in blue values in Adobe Camera Raw during conversion to bring out the clouds.





Blair Mill during a Snowstorm, Cambridge, Canada - Nikon D800 (FF) - ISO 125 using Nikkor f/2.8 24mm at f/11 at 1/80th sec. Shot in Aperture Priority mode using a tripod. Significant PP due to the poor light conditions.





National War Memorial of Canada, Ottawa, Canada - Nikon D800 (FF) - ISO 125 using Nikkor f/2.8 24mm at f/4.5 at 4 sec. Shot in Manual mode. This is a 6-shot panorama shot on a tripod that was assembled in Photoshop CC. Minimal PP other than removal of sensor noise in the sky.






Rideau Canal Skateway and Downtown Buildings, Ottawa Canada - Nikon D800 (FF) - ISO 100 using Nikkor f/2.8 24mm at f/5.6 at 5 sec. Shot in Manual mode. This is a 5-shot panorama shot on a tripod that was assembled in Photoshop CC. Significant PP including the removal of sensor noise in the sky and blending of mixed lighting conditions.





Note: No handheld meter was used in the creation of these images.

[AlwaysOnAuto]

This thread has been a most interesting read for me as I'm still trying to figure out how to read/use one of these.



Thankfully my cameras have pretty good built in meters.

-Impressive pictures Manfred.

[Mike Buckley]

This thread has been a most interesting read for me as I'm still trying to figure out how to read/use one of these.

The humor of that statement combined with your screen name is not lost on me.

[AlwaysOnAuto]

I must admit Mike, I got a much deeper appreciation for just how easy camera makers have made it for people like me (those that use AUTO) to take properly exposed pictures, when I first started looking at using my M3 with the light meter attached. I can see how it made that camera as close to an AUTO functioning one as they could come up with back then.



I'll be the first to admit I'm not a photographer in the sense most of you here are, but I'm trying. My NEX w/manual lenses has made me 'think' more about what parameters I want to use to get the effect in the image I want.
I hadn't really thought about the humor part of my response, but I'm glad you liked it. I guess it is/was kind of subtle.

[GeoBonsai]

I live in San Leandro, California, USA. Photogenic locations such as yours are few and far between. You didn't mention camera model, f/stop, shutter speed, post-processing or HDR details.

If I travel by car a long distance to a photogenic location, I want to come home with good photos. So, I bring out the very tiny Gossen Digisix light meter and I take a reading.

Oh, did I mention that with the Gossen I can see AT A GLACE all my setting options? Maybe I'm shooting at Rodeo Beach in Marin County (be there or be square) and waves are coming in and I want to creatively choose my camera settings. Using aperture priority mode of f/11, my camera forces me into shutter 1/400 ISO 6400 ... using shutter priority mode of 1/4 second, my camera forces me into f/3.5 ISO 7500.

So many settings, so much time clicking camera dials. Better to take a reading from the Gossen Digisix and set my settings manually.

[rpcrowe]

This thread has been a most interesting read for me as I'm still trying to figure out how to read/use one of these.



Thankfully my cameras have pretty good built in meters.

-Impressive pictures Manfred.

Today's methods of metering exposure are pretty well the same as that meter; except that the camera meter will do it automatically or semi automatically...

The slot where you see only red is where, when the dial is rotated, you will find the film sensitivity (the Weston Master II used a Weston Index which was later supplanted by the ASA or American Standards Association Index - same as ISO)

Once you have set the film sensitivity, you basically point the rear of the meter towards the scene which you desire to measure. Set the arrow marker against the value that the meter arrow reads. You can then select the exposure from the dial with shutter speed matching the f/stop. In this case, the exposure reads from 1/50 second @ f/32 to 1/1200 second @ f/6.3 The rest of the scale is for longer exposures in minutes and seconds....

If you want to reduce or increase the exposure, simply match the A 1/2 or C 2x at there the meter needle is resting.

Opening the rear of the meter allows metering lower light levels.

[William W]

OK, I use a Sekonic L758 and IMO best investment I made next to camera,lenses and tripod.
Todays cameras do have very good metering systems but IMO cannot if you want to be accurate beat a light meter.
I no when I take a reading [with my Sekonic 758] put it in camera that when I get home the image will be correctly exposed.

I also have a Sekonic L758. And also two Gossen Hand Held Light Meters.

What I am curious about is how you actually use your Sekonic for Landscape work - in other words your PROCEDURE.

So could you explain exactly at what area you would point your Sekonic 758 in these three following Landscape Genre Images, remembering that the goal is that its meter reading would ensure that when you get home “the image will be correctly exposed."

Note these three scenes are made with a 24mm lens on a 5D Series, so therefore the FoV (h) is about 74°

Scene 01: (we want the shadow detail in the foreground wall and under the bridge's arches)


Scene 02: (note the scene is back-lit and we want detail in the foreground rock formation, but do not want to blow the cloud formation)


Scene 03: (Moonless night but clear sky, detail required in the lamp-lit areas)


Noting that the predicate for this conversation with Geri was all about the worth or not of the PROCEDURE of using an Hand Held Light Meter, for Landscape Scenes.

WW

[William W]

. . . If I travel by car a long distance to a photogenic location, I want to come home with good photos. So, I bring out the very tiny Gossen Digisix light meter and I take a reading.

Based upon the content of your responses, I think the best course for you is to continue with this Hand Held Metering procedure for you Landscape Work.

WW

[xpatUSA]

If I travel by car a long distance to a photogenic location, I want to come home with good photos. So, I bring out the very tiny Gossen Digisix light meter and I take a reading.

Oh, did I mention that with the Gossen I can see AT A GLANCE all my setting options?

Maybe I'm shooting at Rodeo Beach in Marin County (be there or be square) and waves are coming in and I want to creatively choose my camera settings. Using aperture priority mode of f/11, my camera forces me into shutter 1/400 ISO 6400

After selecting aperture priority on my humble Panasonic GH1, I click this wheel, a + to -3 EV exposure compensation (EC) scale highlights on the LCD and then that wheel allows EC adjustment by speed in 1/3EV steps either way, while I watch the live histogram do it's thing.

... using shutter priority mode of 1/4 second, my camera forces me into f/3.5 ISO 7500.

In shutter priority, the GH1 does it the other way, i.e. the wheel changes the aperture while keeping the speed constant.

All very, very easy with the GH1 and no forcing involved - so, if I read correctly below, it could be time to dump the D3300 . .

So many settings, so much time clicking camera dials. Better to take a reading from the Gossen Digisix and set my settings manually.

However, I do also agree with WW's beautifully-put advice given just prior to this post

[Manfred M]

Ted - the D3300 is very much like your GH1 when it comes to changing the settings. I've shot the D3300, not the GH1, but expect that it is not that different from my GX7.

I expect Geri would try the same workflow on either camera.

[loosecanon]

Re using the Western Master
This will give reflected light readings , to measure incident light you need to attach the invercone - a white plastic hemisphere - that is often missing from these when bought in junk shops and so on.

[Manfred M]

I live in San Leandro, California, USA. Photogenic locations such as yours are few and far between. You didn't mention camera model, f/stop, shutter speed, post-processing or HDR details.

If I travel by car a long distance to a photogenic location, I want to come home with good photos. So, I bring out the very tiny Gossen Digisix light meter and I take a reading.

Oh, did I mention that with the Gossen I can see AT A GLACE all my setting options? Maybe I'm shooting at Rodeo Beach in Marin County (be there or be square) and waves are coming in and I want to creatively choose my camera settings. Using aperture priority mode of f/11, my camera forces me into shutter 1/400 ISO 6400 ... using shutter priority mode of 1/4 second, my camera forces me into f/3.5 ISO 7500.

So many settings, so much time clicking camera dials. Better to take a reading from the Gossen Digisix and set my settings manually.

Okay Geri - let me try this another way...

First of all I've added the specifics of the images I've posted. These are all from RAW files, so at a minimum they have some sharpening, contrast adjustment and black and white point adjustment, much like a straight-out-of-the-camera jpeg would have. Any additional PP work is mentioned as well; there are NO HDRI images amongst theses.

Second comment, if you think of your D3300 as a computer that takes pictures, rather than a "traditional" camera, it may be a bit more clear as to what is happening. Your camera has no idea as to what subject you are taking, but when you set up in either Auto or Program mode, it does look at the light level, the lens you have (maximum aperture) and focal length and will calculate the "best" settings that will likely result in an acceptable image. It looks that the exposure triangle. and based on the amount of light hitting the metering cell will adjust the ISO, shutter speed and / or aperture to maximize your chance of getting an acceptable image.

The one thing I rarely do is to shoot Auto-ISO. I come from the film days when ISO was locked down when you put a certain type of film in the camera. Just as then, the highest quality image you will get will come when you shoot at base ISO, which I believe is ISO 200 on the D3300. Shooting at base ISO gives you three things:

1. The highest dynamic range that your camera is capable of recording; i.e. the maximum number of stops (eV) from the brightest highlight detail to the darkest shadow detail;

2. The maximum colour depth (again the maximum number of shades that the camera is capable of capturing); and

3. The minimum sensor noise.

If you are interested, DxO labs has the graphs on your camera model here: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Nikon...--Measurements

As a general rule, I try to shoot with as low an ISO value as I can get away with. That means I often shoot landscapes using a fairly heavy duty tripod, so that I can shoot at lower shutter speeds.

The next thing I look at is whether I am looking to shoot for a specific depth of field (i.e. how much of the image will be in focus) or I am shooting to either freeze of blur motion (for instance, how do I plan to handle flowing water or wave action, if these are part of the image). I will also take focal length that I am planning to shoot at into account, as many of my lenses are not stabilized and I have to be comfortable in being able to hand-hold at the shutter speed I am selecting.

Fixed ISO, determine either the shutter speed or the aperture I will be shooting at, and the third variable is determined from the other two. Note, I didn't suggest how you get that combination; I would use the camera to do so (except for very specific instances where I do so manually; for instance the two panos I posted in my previous posting). Your hand-held light meter should give you a workable value too, although you may find that I nail more shots than you do, based on what I and others have previously written.

As for finding a location, at least a couple were taken to prove to some local photographers that I could find nice places to shoot within 20 minutes of home. I also posted some images taken under what I consider very tough shooting conditions; both the Tiger's Nest Monastery and the Annapurna South Mountain were taken at altitude (both were at elevations over 10,000 ft) after we hiked / trekked to these locations.

I do hope you get a chance to learn how to use the functionality built into your camera; it is actually a very talented piece of equipment, but one has to understand how it works in order to get the most out of it. Practice at home before you head out of town to where you like shooting.

By the way, you can get smartphone / tablet apps that give you things like hyperfocal distance or the shutter speed / f-stop relationships, so you really don't need your hand-held light meter to get those values.

[GeoBonsai]

I've read all replies, and, I thank you all for your in-depth responses.

Still, I think ...

If I want to purchase replacement knobs for my kitchen cabinets (hold on ... follow me), I want to see all my options before making a decision, and I don't want an interior designer to make the decision for me.

Likewise, I want to see my options before shooting some images. There is no easy and quick way for me to see all f/stop and shutter-speed options on my Nikon D3300 camera. Ah! But I can see a whole bunch of combinations at a glance on my tiny Gossen Digisix! Then I know what my options are and I don't have to let an interior designer, opps, I mean a camera decide for me.

Oh, and by the way, did I mention I drive a manual transmission (aka stick-shift) car?

Oh, and also by the way, the images posted here are among the best, most inspirational images I've ever seen anywhere! Totally awesome each and every one!

::

::

[William W]

I've read all replies, and, I thank you all for your in-depth responses.

Still, I think ...

If I want to purchase replacement knobs for my kitchen cabinets (hold on ... follow me), I want to see all my options before making a decision, and I don't want an interior designer to make the decision for me.

Likewise, I want to see my options before shooting some images. There is no easy and quick way for me to see all f/stop and shutter-speed options on my Nikon D3300 camera. Ah! But I can see a whole bunch of combinations at a glance on my tiny Gossen Digisix! Then I know what my options are and I don't have to let an interior designer, opps, I mean a camera decide for me.

Oh, and by the way, did I mention I drive a manual transmission (aka stick-shift) car?

Oh, and also by the way, the images posted here are among the best, most inspirational images I've ever seen anywhere! Totally awesome each and every one!

It occurs to me that is a very kind, considered, thoughtful and sincere reply.

But – may I ask one favour of you?
Please confirm that you are choosing your knobs in a complete understanding of the the following fact:

When you use the Gossen Hand Held Light Meter, even IF you point it EXACTLY in the same direction as the camera’s Viewpoint - IF you intend to make an image using a lens of a Focal Length EITHER Wider than 50mm - OR – Longer than 50mm, then the Gossen Light Meter is NOT (emphasis on NOT) evaluating a light reading from the SAME scene as your camera is Photographing.

SO – let’s take the analogy of Kitchen Knobs – if you use a lens that is NOT 50mm to make your image, then you really have no idea what the kitchen looks like for which you are buying the new knobs . . .

Sure-thing: it will be close sometimes, but not always. And your procedure will be more prone to error, the wider or longer the lens that you use.

WW

For what it is worth, I drive a stick car, too.

[Manfred M]

Geri - Let's stay with your drawer and cabinent pulls. I can work with that.

So you Google pulls and find a specialist in those. Let's try the Lee Valley site...

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Hardware...?cat=3&p=70806

Yes, you can lok at hundreds of these things. But pretty quickly you will realize that it will take you hours to look at every single knob available. Pretty quickly you will eliminate pulls that are not for kitchen drawers and cabinents, because you are not in the market for those. Soon afterwards, you will probably decide that some of the styles are not going to work in your kitchen and perhaps a little later on, you are going to eliminate the ones that are outside your price range or below the quality you want. You will probably eliminate the ones that won't work; for instance two hole models, when you cabinets and drawers have a single hole design. Soon you are probably going to concentrate on the ones that will work for you.

That analogy can be extended setting up your camera. The Gossen meter gives you everything, but most of the readings you will never use, so why do you care that you can take that shot at f/32 at 10 seconds or the f/1.2 shot at 1/4000th, because you don't have a lens that is that fast. You might find it interesting (just like all the knobs in the catalogue), but you will be so busy looking you are going to miss shots.

When you shoot more, you are going to quickly figure out that you want to shoot that landscape at f/11 (or f/16 or f/8) so the corresponding shutter speeds are going to be one up or one down from where you are. You don't want or need to see the whole spectrum of available combinations because you will never actually use the, And of course, as Bill pointed out, you can't guarantee that you handheld is actually giving you the right reading.

Again, all I can suggest is that you start learning how your camera works and stop using the handheld lightmeter. This will make you a better photographer.