Point 'n Shoot Recommendations

[FrankMi]

Frank:
It seems you probably have enough information to proceed at this point but I'll toss in my two cents/pennies-worth and add a vote for the G-12. I'm in exactly your situation (not wanting to always lug the dslr around) and I've had a G-11 for a year or so and I'm very happy with it. It has two extremely useful features - Firstly, the (much criticized) viewfinder. It's true that it's not perfect but it's better than the screen when the sun is behind you (unless you carry a black sheet a la Ansel Adams). Second feature which I love is the pivoting/rotating screen. It's perfect for waist level shots, overhead shots, candid shots etc.

Good luck with your descision. If I had the loot I'd probably buy one of each of the recommendations; they all have enviable qualities. Probably the best plan would be to make a short-list and go in a good store with an open mind and fiddle with them all.

Cheers,

Dave D

Hi Dave, yes, there is enough information available now to make a decision on a Point & Shoot camera. The current options are:
1. Get a quality 'all-around' pocketable camera that shoots RAW but has limited zoom. The choice would be the Canon S95.
2. Get a slightly larger camera which might not be pocketable, still shoots RAW, but might fit on a belt clip. The choice then expands to include the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 and Nikon Coolpix P7000.
3. Get a great camera which is not pocketable and may or may not shoot RAW but would have better zoom. There are a number of cameras that fit this category, many of which have been mentioned in this thread.

And the choice is..... drumroll please!

"When in doubt, don't."

I have an older Point & Shoot with limited megapixels, but I usually don't print my shots. It isn't pocketable and won't shoot RAW, but it is paid for and works great, and has a 14X zoom. The DSLR, not the P&S, is my primary camera so the primary benefit of the P&S is to be able to take pictures when the DSLR isn't easily availably. Although I can do that with my current P&S, it’s not as convenient as a cell phone to carry around.

This is not the end of the search, merely a temporary delay to wait for technology and product availability to catch up.

I want to thank each and every one that contributed to this thread. I am sure that it has helped a number of other viewers that are facing this decision.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Frank,

Did you ever come to a decision?

I have done more research, including handling some live examples in a shop and that, together with the image quality and, above all its small, pocketable size, have convinced me the Canon S95 is the one for me. Now I am just waiting to see if the price drops (from £279 on Amazon today) with what might be a successor announced later in September.

Robin,
I did give the EX1 some serious thought, but size matters and small is beautiful for slipping in my pocket - I need it to be similar to my Blackberry Bold and the only model that is close (with these facilities) is the S95.

Janis, Lennart;
Do either of you have problems with battery life?
Do you carry a spare battery?
I ask because it gets a mention in some reviews.

Cheers,

[FrankMi]

Did you ever come to a decision?

Hi Dave, there is no question that the Canon S95 is a front runner for me and a lot of other folks as well. It is pocketable, shoots RAW, has the quality I prefer, and the price is reasonable for what you are getting. If I remember correctly the zoom range is under 4X. My current Sony is getting old, 5 MP, won't shoot RAW and isn't pocketable. It has two benefits, however, it shoots 12X zoom and is paid for! I am still hoping they'll come out with the equilivent of the S95 with a longer zoom before the Sony bites the dust. <sigh>!

[purplehaze]

Janis, Lennart;
Do either of you have problems with battery life?
Do you carry a spare battery?
I ask because it gets a mention in some reviews.

Hi Dave,

I get what I think is a reasonable number of exposures when I don't overcharge, which I have done a couple of times. Despite my carelessness, I haven't had to replace either of the two I have yet. On the other hand, I have only had the camera for 11 months and am not a heavy user. I carry a spare because I used to get caught out with my old PowerShot.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Dave,

I get what I think is a reasonable number of exposures when I don't overcharge, which I have done a couple of times. Despite my carelessness, I haven't had to replace either of the two I have yet. On the other hand, I have only had the camera for 11 months and am not a heavy user. I carry a spare because I used to get caught out with my old PowerShot.

Thanks Janis,

I suppose even if it is just a backup/anytime camera, one should have easy access to a spare charged battery, or it is pointless carrying it around
The other issue is if it self-discharges through lack of use, it won't be available when needed

Thanks for replying,

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Dave, there is no question that the Canon S95 is a front runner for me and a lot of other folks as well. It is pocketable, shoots RAW, has the quality I prefer, and the price is reasonable for what you are getting. If I remember correctly the zoom range is under 4X. My current Sony is getting old, 5 MP, won't shoot RAW and isn't pocketable. It has two benefits, however, it shoots 12X zoom and is paid for! I am still hoping they'll come out with the equilivent of the S95 with a longer zoom before the Sony bites the dust. <sigh>!

My fear is that if a successor follows and it has my ideal lens; say 22 or 24 to 150 or 200mm, it must, if image quality is maintained, be physically bigger, so would become the size of the LX5 or EX1, thus I'd still go for the S95.

Wait and see, eh?

Thanks,

[FrankMi]

My fear is that if a successor follows and it has my ideal lens; say 22 or 24 to 150 or 200mm, it must, if image quality is maintained, be physically bigger, so would become the size of the LX5 or EX1, thus I'd still go for the S95.

Wait and see, eh?

Thanks,

Hi Dave, fortunately, technology is shrinking the size of devices like this. Just think of the size camera needed to to do what the S95 does, just a few years ago.

I looked at the S95 specs again after I replied to your last post and realized that the 3.7X zoom was strictly optical. It can do a digital 15X zoom which I didn't notice earlier. If the camera uses at least 5MP for a 12X zoom then it is as good in zoom as the Sony H1 I'm looking to replace! Now I have to see if there is a way to determine how much sensor croping is done with the digital zoom.

What time of the year would Canon likely introduce new models?

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Dave, fortunately, technology is shrinking the size of devices like this. Just think of the size camera needed to to do what the S95 does, just a few years ago.

I think the laws of physics may play a part here, the only way I could see them making it smaller, or a wider range without adversely impacting quality would be to make use of aspheric lens and/or ED glass and that would probably put the price up.

I looked at the S95 specs again after I replied to your last post and realized that the 3.7X zoom was strictly optical. It can do a digital 15X zoom which I didn't notice earlier. If the camera uses at least 5MP for a 12X zoom then it is as good in zoom as the Sony H1 I'm looking to replace! Now I have to see if there is a way to determine how much sensor croping is done with the digital zoom.

I prefer to ignore digital zoom, if need be, I'll crop in PP to get a good composition, but I can see where you're going for comparison to your needs for maintaining quality.

Sony H1 pics are: 2592 x 1944px = 5.03 MP at an equivalent focal length of 432mm max.
Canon S95 pics are: 3648 x 2736px = 9.98 MP at an equivalent focal length of 105mm max.
Without even doing the maths, I don't think that's going to come close
Twice as many pixels, but 4 x further away, so twice as bad. (Except the lens may be a bit sharper too)

What time of the year would Canon likely introduce new models?

I'm not normally a Canon follower, so I don't know for sure on tradition, but I think Rebecca mentioned there were some dates in later September when something might happen. That said, I believe the S90 and S95 both got announced in August (2009 and 2010), so maybe, for this camera style, the time has passed.

[FrankMi]

Twice as many pixels, but 4 x further away, so twice as bad. (Except the lens may be a bit sharper too)

DANG! Why does logic have to get in the way of a great idea!

Thanks for the insight, Dave. I guess I'm back to 'wait and see'. <sigh>

[purplehaze]

I'm not normally a Canon follower, so I don't know for sure on tradition, but I think Rebecca mentioned there were some dates in later September when something might happen. That said, I believe the S90 and S95 both got announced in August (2009 and 2010), so maybe, for this camera style, the time has passed.

Au contraire. The word is that the new PowerShots, including the replacement for the S95 will be announced on September 15. If you scroll down the linked page, you'll see that the latter is expected to have 2 more MP and a bit more optical zoom (5x) than its predecessor.

[speedneeder]

As someone considering a 'pocket camera' as well, this thread has been a very interesting read. Thanks to all who have contributed.
As Janis pointed out, the S100 has been announced and the new specs are definitely interesting, though I have not seen any info regarding high ISO noise or general image quality though. A camera this size could be with me always and that really appeals to me. It's wider lens is also very interesting. I can see this being a backup to my 60D when going to kids games and such and dreading trying to switch lenses and not lose any opportunities for good shots. I'm waiting for more info, though if high ISO performance and image quality is better than the S95, there may be a new entry on my letter to Santa this year

Can someone comment on DOF with these little cameras? What does F2 mean on a P&S? Is it comparable to shooting at F2 on my 60D? Any comments on this would be appreciated. Any links to high ISO noise and image quality on the S100 would also be appreciated.

[Dave Humphries]

Can someone comment on DOF with these little cameras? What does F2 mean on a P&S? Is it comparable to shooting at F2 on my 60D?

Hi Brian,

I spent some time researching this a while ago and basically, for practical purposes, the f/numbers are multiplied by the crop factor, just as the focal length is, for equivalent fields of view.

The crop factor is 4.6 for the S100, so f/2 is about f/9 on a FF camera, but of course if you use an APS-C body now, then that reduces to 9/1.6 = f/5.7 on a 60D.

Yes, I saw the S100 and it does look very tempting, they have indeed (apparently) made the lens wider 24mm (vs 28mm), longer (5x) and kept it the same size

Cheers,

[speedneeder]

Dave, thanks for the info.
F5.7 isn't as tempting.

[Dave Humphries]

Dave, thanks for the info.
F5.7 isn't as tempting.

I know what you mean, it is unavoidable with a small sensor and an "f/2" lens.

Trouble is; give it a bigger sensor and demand a fast f/2 lens and it gets huge again, by laws of physics and manufacturing, you end up with a lens just like what fits the 60D.

Thinking about the fundamental problem; on that size sensor, what's needed is a (much) faster lens - 3 stops faster, circa f/0.7 on the camera to get the same DoF. I wonder how possible that is?
Around f/1.0 would give you the equivalent DoF of f/2.8 on a 60D and that might be do-able, I have seen a f/0.95 (prime) lens, but it wouldn't fit in your pocket and be with you when you need it.

As an aside; having a lens less than f1 sounds impossible doesn't it? but I think all it means is the aperture diameter is wider than the focal length - now you can imagine what that looks like - and why it has been limited (in my experience) to fairly short focal length primes!

I have reconciled myself that small size and pocketability is everything for my needs, so anything bigger than the S95 or S100 is a non-starter - I'll still get loads of pictures that I otherwise wouldn't and I can shoot RAW + jpg and have best of both worlds; SOOC jpg and if I get a really good 'un, I'll have the RAW to PP from.

Cheers,

[Dave Humphries]

~ they have indeed (apparently) made the lens wider 24mm (vs 28mm), longer (5x) and kept it the same size ~

I said, a few posts above in this thread, they wouldn't be able to do it, that was probably wishful thinking, because then I would have been happy with the (hopefully) reduced prices on an S95 after the S100 came out.

Now Canon have ruined it and instead of picking up an S95 for around £250 I am wanting the S100 at over £400
It gives me the 24mm equivalent you see, wider than I can shoot even with my DSLR.

[FrankMi]

Many products go through a two-step process for new releases. In the first step, innovation and technological advances are the driving force. Over time, the shortcomings are apparent. In the second step, sometimes referred to as the 'stabilization release', usually most of the shortcomings are addressed and minor improvements are made. Sometimes there are more than one stabilization release before a really new technology emerges.

It looks like the Canon S100 is a refined S95 with a significantly higher price tag. We'll need to see what the street prices will be in November and more importantly, in January.