A Hilltop Ruin

[ScoutR]

Oh gawd!

If you have the time, would you like to have a look back here and see if you can see them as well.

I just re-calibrated and set the profile and am wondering if I've set myself up wrongly. Or am I over-cooking with SEP2 and causing this?

(signed) Worried from Glenfarg

I did not see them first time round on the bridge, but now that I look closer I can see them. If I look on the left just above the 2 butments or pillars I can spot them and then follow them around. On the bridge the circles are much narrower and finer than in "the ruin", but I can see them now. I find them much more noticable on the ruin but even there I don't find them distracting except that I'm sure you are distracted trying to figure out the where they are coming from and why so many of us see them and you don't. My screen is not calibrated and yours is so I would tend to trust your screen more than mine and some of the others that might not be calibrated, however I have not noticed this on any except the last 2 of your shots.

Wish I could help but I really don't have any idea of the cause. In both shots though to me it looks like they radiate from a central point in the shot and seem to be wider and more prominent about 1/3 in from the edges, also more prominent on sides than top and bottom

Wendy

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Donald,

Well, I've never seen anything like this before!

With some extreme processing to enhance the artefact;


I couldn't see them in the Forth Bridge jpg though.

You haven't got some weird watermarking/tagging plug-in working on GIMP have you?

Seems very unlikely to be an accidentally applied effect in PP (i.e. with a large brush size).

Bizarre,

[Donald]

I'm going to take it back through Silver Efex Pro 2 (once I feel a little less tired than I do at the moment - probably some time around February after out child protection inspection is over!) and treat it differently, to see if something I'm doing in there is causing this.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Donald,

Thinking on it some more, and this may not be what you want to hear, but you just had the sensor cleaned, yes?

They haven't somehow applied some pressure and deformed the anti-alias filter so it touches the sensor and these are 'interference patterns' we are looking at?

UPDATE:
Or got moisture/cleaning fluid between the two surfaces, causing the same effect (and it moves around depending on camera orientation)?

Clutching at straws really,

[Donald]

They haven't somehow applied some pressure and deformed the anti-alias filter so it touches the sensor and these are 'interference patterns' we are looking at?

Yes I have. I'll re-process this one first and then look again.

If folks have the patience, could you look at this one and tell me if you see the same thing. On the basis of what's Dave has suggested above, I'm trying to look at all that I've made since the sensor was cleaned.

[Dave Humphries]

Yes I have. I'll re-process this one first and then look again.

If folks have the patience, could you look at this one and tell me if you see the same thing. On the basis of what's Dave has suggested above, I'm trying to look at all that I've made since the sensor was cleaned.

I have now had a look at the first day's Forth Bridge again and only with the most extreme processing can I see them, but they are there.

Can you point me at one shot before cleaning and I'll do same extreme PP to that and have a look.

Cheers,

[Dave Humphries]

Yes I have. I'll re-process this one first and then look again.

If folks have the patience, could you look at this one and tell me if you see the same thing. On the basis of what's Dave has suggested above, I'm trying to look at all that I've made since the sensor was cleaned.

I don't see them on this one (Across Balcanquhal), although there's not so much sky and that's where I see it easiest.

[Donald]

Can you point me at one shot before cleaning and I'll do same extreme PP to that and have a look.,

Dave

My stuff from Beaujolais would be the last 'decent stuff' before cleaning. But the rider is that I also did this with SEP1 not SEP2. I've had a close look at the .cr2 and the .tiff of Hilltop Ruin and can't see any hint of the problem. So, I'm feeling it's something I'm doing in Silver Efex Pro 2.

But ........

There is this one or this.

[Dave Humphries]

There is this one or this.

Not seeing rings in either of those.
(is that the correct answer?)

[Dave Humphries]

But the rider is that I also did this with SEP1 not SEP2. I've had a close look at the .cr2 and the .tiff of Hilltop Ruin and can't see any hint of the problem. So, I'm feeling it's something I'm doing in Silver Efex Pro 2.

I just opened the RAW (cr2) of Forth Bridge and I cannot see the rings, although it has had less processing.

[ScoutR]

Donald, I do not see the pattern on any of the three links in this thread. I thought I saw them on the right side sky of the first link, but on closer inspection I believe it is just the downward swirling pattern of the clouds that drew my attention.

Hope you get it figured out. Makes it much easier to see with what Dave did in PP. I was starting to feel a bit silly trying to explain how it looked so that you would see it too.

Wendy

Edit: Sorry I should have said the last three links in this thread, the first one being "Across Balcan...." which is where I thought I saw signs of the circles, but on second look think it is just the clouds.

[Donald]

Not seeing rings in either of those.
(is that the correct answer?)

Well, it still leaves the option that the cleaning has caused a problem. However ....

I'd like to re-process Hilltop Ruin using a different approach with SEP 2 and come back to you, hopefully early next week, and ask you to cast your perceptive eye over it.

For those of you who know SEP2, I think I'm not mastering the use of 'Control Points'. I'm getting too enthusiastic with the sliders (brightness; contrast; structure; amplify whites; amplify blacks; fine structure)... or something of that nature, or the control point tool is leaving these artifacts for some reason I don't understand.

[purplehaze]

For those of you who know SEP2, I think I'm not mastering the use of 'Control Points'. I'm getting too enthusiastic with the sliders (brightness; contrast; structure; amplify whites; amplify blacks; fine structure)... or something of that nature, or the control point tool is leaving these artifacts for some reason I don't understand.

Hi Donald,

Having demoed Nik software, I am familiar with control points and thought you might be on the right track, so I googled "silver effects" + "control points" + "troubleshooting" and found this: http://www.nikforums.com/showthread....ontrol-Points&. Hope it is your answer.

[MrB]

Oh, and I cannot see any circles in your image on my laptop screen - and I have tried looking from many different angles.

Correction:-

Could someone tell me if I am now seeing what you all describe - I was looking for small circles but, if I zoom in so the image fills the screen, I can see a very faint pattern of big concentric circles in the clouds - or have I just been staring at the monitor for too long?

I can also see something similar over the Forth Bridge posts. However, a quick default jpeg conversion of Donald's raw file does not show this pattern - again, assuming I now understand correctly what others describe. So dare I (a raw novice) suggest that it would seem to be a pp effect, not camera or monitor?

Philip

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Philip,

Yes, it is looking like an artefact of SEP2 in PP, Janis has found something that seems quite relevant about control points.

FYI, what I do to make this more visible is open the jpg in CS5, adjust contrast to +150, brightness to about -20, then do a Local Contrast Enhance with USM (Un Sharp Mask) with about 30% (0.30 in GIMP speak), 250 px radius and 0 threshold.
You may then need to have another waggle on Brightness, depending on picture content.

Cheers,

[Harpo]

Oh gawd!

If you have the time, would you like to have a look back here and see if you can see them as well.

I just re-calibrated and set the profile and am wondering if I've set myself up wrongly. Or am I over-cooking with SEP2 and causing this?

(signed) Worried from Glenfarg

Yup Donald. Still there...

[Donald]

Hi Donald,

Having demoed Nik software, I am familiar with control points and thought you might be on the right track, so I googled "silver effects" + "control points" + "troubleshooting" and found this: http://www.nikforums.com/showthread....ontrol-Points&. Hope it is your answer.

Janis

You are a Goddess. Thank you. That is it.

It was interesting to read that Kevin (from Nik), with whom I have had a number of exchanges on the question of trying to get SEP2 to work in the first place, wrote in that thread about this being a 'surprise' and that he was going to get the software guys to look at it. I also noted that Laurie, from their technical department asked the guy who asked the question to send her the files to have a look at.

I've posted a message on that Nik thread asking if an explanation was ever found for this.

Could someone tell me if I am now seeing what you all describe - I was looking for small circles but, if I zoom in so the image fills the screen, I can see a very faint pattern of big concentric circles in the clouds - or have I just been staring at the monitor for too long?

Philip

That's exactly it. Like you, when Katy and Wendy first posted, I was looking for something small.

With Silver Efex Pro, you can put in what they call a 'Control Point' You put a control point onto the image and that creates a circle of influence. So, within that circle, and you can make it as large or small as you want, every pixel that matches the one over which you have placed the control point will be affected by the action you take; e.g. adjust brightness or contrast, etc.

The Nik online tutorials show you how you can put in a very large control point for, say, a sky, but can then put in counter control points in areas covered by that circle that you don't want affected by the action. This has the effects of nullifying the action of the first control point.

It is really, really clever stuff ...... if it works!

[MrB]

It is really, really clever stuff ...... if it works!

Donald, it would appear that you have found a perfect example of this -

"The law of unintended consequences is an adage or idiomatic warning that an intervention in a complex system always creates unanticipated and often undesirable outcomes. Akin to Murphy's law, it is commonly used as a wry or humorous warning against the hubristic belief that humans can fully control the world around them." (Quote from Wikipedia)

Philip

[Katy Noelle]

Donald, it would appear that you have found a perfect example of this -

"The law of unintended consequences is an adage or idiomatic warning that an intervention in a complex system always creates unanticipated and often undesirable outcomes. Akin to Murphy's law, it is commonly used as a wry or humorous warning against the hubristic belief that humans can fully control the world around them." (Quote from Wikipedia)

Philip

Oh, my word! You have no idea how funny this is, Philip!!!

[Katy Noelle]

Hey, Donald! Here's a bright side, CiC is a learning place and, now, others (who are tearing their hair out) will be able to find help, answers....relief! You've blazed the trail for millions! (Have you put in a key word, link thingy for it? Ack, can't think of the word for it.)

(Thank you for not spearing the messenger of bad tidings on this one!)