A Hilltop Ruin

[Donald]

Ack, can't think of the word for it.)

Tag.

Yes, see below, 'Tags for this thread' Just off into the NIK forum to see if anyone there has replied to me.

[purplehaze]

Janis

You are a Goddess. Thank you. That is it.

It is good to be able to do something for you, for a change.

I've posted a message on that Nik thread asking if an explanation was ever found for this.

I hope adding the extra control points works for you; looking forward to the re-edit.

With Silver Efex Pro, you can put in what they call a 'Control Point' You put a control point onto the image and that creates a circle of influence. So, within that circle, and you can make it as large or small as you want, every pixel that matches the one over which you have placed the control point will be affected by the action you take; e.g. adjust brightness or contrast, etc.

The Nik online tutorials show you how you can put in a very large control point for, say, a sky, but can then put in counter control points in areas covered by that circle that you don't want affected by the action. This has the effects of nullifying the action of the first control point.

It is really, really clever stuff ...... if it works!

One of the other threads on control points in the Nik forum linked to this on-line tutorial, which the author claims is better written than the Nik User Guides. I bookmarked it for my own future use, but thought I would share it here; not only does the author link to this site, but in my experience, slightly different wording or a slight shift in perspective can make all the difference between darkness and light, utter incomprehension and understanding.

And kudos to Katy, who time and again demonstrates that she has an extraordinarily sharp eye. (Where's the icon for envy?)

[ScoutR]

(Thank you for not spearing the messenger of bad tidings on this one!)

Not to worry Katy, Mike "Harpo" pointed it out a whole thread ahead of you in post #7, so you are off the hook
The Forth Bridge

[Katy Noelle]

Not to worry Katy, Mike "Harpo" pointed it out a whole thread ahead of you in post #7, so you are off the hook
The Forth Bridge

! (er, I saw it, then, too, after Harpo spotted it but, since my monitor really is about to fall off......)

[Wirefox]

Or am I over-cooking with SEP2 and causing this?

I have not had time to read the whole thread in detail Donald. But alien crop circles aside this is suffering from same the noise/grain as the other shots you have done using this software. To quote THIS article

" One thing to keep in mind when converting to black & white using any technique is noise. I always run Lightroom’s or Dfine’s noise reduction before the black & white conversion process. This helps eliminate the artifacts that can occur when high contrast images are converted to black & white."

However, from your exif data there really seems to be no other explanation than the noise and banding being introduced during PP. It is very similar to the sort of thing you get when you stretch the tonal curve a little too far...noise and banding occurs in large areas of similar tone such as sky. You are not losing detail in other areas though so I can only think your conversion settings are such that the issue is only visible in flat tones. It might be worth asking the question on a forum dedicated to Silver Efex.

[ScoutR]

! (er, I saw it, then, too, after Harpo spotted it but, since my monitor really is about to fall off......)

Katy, relax, it's not a contest.... really

[Katy Noelle]

Katy, relax, it's not a contest.... really

Who in the world can think about competing when they our (and can't spell!) sitting on a pillow in the floor with their laptop propped up against a chair so that their screen doesn't fall off?

[Donald]

But alien crop circles aside this is suffering from same the noise/grain as the other shots you have done using this software.

Gawd, I'm feeling like a beginner again. But as we always say, we sometimes have to go backwards in order to leap forward.

Who was the bloody idiot that coined that phrase?

[Donald]

It is good to be able to do something for you, for a change.

I hope adding the extra control points works for you; looking forward to the re-edit.

Just to update the story .... and report that there's a real risk of demotion from Goddess status to mere Sainthood.

There is no doubt that the thread in the Nik forum to which Janis referred is exactly the problem I've experienced here. However, the last half hour has made the story even more intriguing.

I took the TIFF (of the image in this thread) created from the RAW, and put it back into Silver Efex Pro 2 (SEP2). Let me remind you that there is absolutely no sign of these rings in the RAW file (as Dave as confirmed) nor in the TIFF. Therefore it must be a SEP2 problem, mustn't it? Read on.

I processed that TIFF in a totally different way. I put small control points all over the sky, rather than the one big control point I used previously and which I thought was the cause. But, and here's the interesting part, ..... the rings are still there, exactly as they appear in the copies on page 1 of this thread. Now - figure that one out.

So, I started getting very nervous and Dave's suggestion, in post 24 of this thread, of damage caused in the recent sensor cleaning I had done, started to raise its terrifying head and loom into view again.

So, I went outside with both the 17-85 kit lens (with which I took the image in this thread) and the 70-200 f4 L and fired off a few frames of today's sky, which is pretty similar to the one in this image. And you know what .................?

No matter how extreme I get with processing those in SEP2, I cannot reproduce those rings. They just ain't there.

Now can anyone make any sense of that, or at least make reassuring noises in my direction so that these 'ticks' I'm developing coupled with the desire to go and lie down in a darkened room, go away!

There's got to be some sort of logical explanation (as Dr Spock would have said) ...........Or has there?

[purplehaze]

I took the TIFF (of the image in this thread) created from the RAW, and put it back into Silver Efex Pro 2 (SEP2). Let me remind you that there is absolutely no sign of these rings in the RAW file (as Dave as confirmed) nor in the TIFF. Therefore it must be a SEP2 problem, mustn't it? Read on.

At the risk of demoting myself even further: are you absolutely sure that TIFF has not made a pass through SEP? I would suggest starting from a fresh TIFF.

No matter how extreme I get with processing those in SEP2, I cannot reproduce those rings. They just ain't there.

I'm inclined to think that, if the rings were easy to reproduce, more people would be encountering the issue. Assuming SEP is causing the problem, that is.

Maybe the cause lies elsewhere, but I would take that original image into SEP via a fresh TIFF first.

Now can anyone make any sense of that, or at least make reassuring noises in my direction so that these 'ticks' I'm developing coupled with the desire to go and lie down in a darkened room, go away!

You have my deepest sympathies. My cures for an attack of the ticks include taking a long walk in nature; immersing myself in a good movie; calling up a good friend on the phone, preferably one I haven't spoken to in a while; or meeting up with a friend or two at a local pub. I fear that lying in a darkened room would only exacerabate my torment.

[jiro]

Is it possible that there is nothing really wrong with SEP 2 even if you use some control points on your image? My wild guess is that the adjustments available in GIMP might probably be amplifying the effect of that control points you used while inside SEP 2 and so making those concentric circle anomaly slightly visible. Normally, what I do is to use SEP then apply a mask in photoshop rather than use the control point of SEP. Not a good process but works for my taste. Apologies if I have offended you by asking about GIMP.

This is a screen capture of a control points' mask layer showing the concentric circles. This is not the actual image, this is only the masked layer showing the extent as to how far the control points' adjustment will affect the image.

[Donald]

At the risk of demoting myself even further: are you absolutely sure that TIFF has not made a pass through SEP? I would suggest starting from a fresh TIFF.

No, Janis. It was definitely the TIFF that was made from the Raw processed in DxO Optics Pro before it went to SEP2. What I do is take the TIFF from DxO Optics Pro and copy it. I then open the copy in SEP2 convert and save it. So until I'm fully satisfied with the final image, I have two TIFFs: One pre-SEP2 and one post-SEP2.

Is it possible that there is nothing really wrong with SEP 2 even if you use some control points on your image? My wild guess is that the adjustments available in GIMP might probably be amplifying the effect of that control points you used while inside SEP 2 and so making those concentric circle anomaly slightly visible.

Now, there's an idea to think about. Although, if that was the case, the rings shouldn't have shown up on that re-work I did this afternoon, because I never took it as far as finishing in the GIMP. But at this stage, one explanation is as valid as any other!

[jiro]

As I have said, with apologies since I am not familiar with your exact workflow, Donald. I tried about 11 control points and there was no sign of concentric circles even if I totally boost every sliders available in SEP 2.

[Donald]

As I have said, with apologies since I am not familiar with your exact workflow, Donald. I tried about 11 control points and there was no sign of concentric circles even if I totally boost every sliders available in SEP 2.

Willie

Was that on the Raw of this image that I made available? If that is the case, then I am encouraged and will go back into that one and try a replicate what you have achieved. And then I'll go back to Hilltop Ruin and try it again.

[jiro]

Willie

Was that on the Raw of this image that I made available? If that is the case, then I am encouraged and will go back into that one and try a replicate what you have achieved. And then I'll go back to Hilltop Ruin and try it again.

Yes. I ran your image in LR and the only thing I corrected was the chromatic aberration which LR easily handled by using camera profile correction. Your RAW file was very clean. I did try my own spin on the RAW file and I'm quite satisfied with the result.

[Donald]

Now this starting to get REALLY interesting (I accept that most of you are now probably totally bored by this thread - for which, my apologies).

This has got something to do (don't know what though) with the RAW processing in DXO Optics Pro.

I reprocessed the RAW in DXO and then again in Canon's DPP. So I had two TIFFS and I took them both into SEP2. Sure enough, work the sliders with the DXO processed image and there are the circles. Do the same adjustments on the DPP processed image and, hey presto, no circles.

Now I'm getting really confused. I've been using DXO for a long time. I've never had any issue like this in the past. There's been no recent update. So far as I can recollect, I haven't started doing anything in DxO than I haven't done before.

Boy this is really getting to me.

I'm now going back to re-visit what i said in post #49 above. I quickly put the RAWS I took of the sky today, through DPP, just fro speed, on the basis that I didn't think this had anything to do with the RAW processor. I'm now going to go back and do them again with DxO and see what happens.

Watch this space,

[Donald]

This has got something to do (don't know what though) with the RAW processing in DXO Optics Pro.

So, I went outside with both the 17-85 kit lens (with which I took the image in this thread) and the 70-200 f4 L and fired off a few frames of today's sky, which is pretty similar to the one in this image. And you know what .................?

No matter how extreme I get with processing those in SEP2, I cannot reproduce those rings. They just ain't there.

Yep - delete that quotation from post #49 in this thread.

This is something that's happening whilst RAW processing with DxO Optics Pro. I re-did the sky shots that I shot this afternoon and, sure enough, there they are.

Does that mean they're lurking, unseen, in every image I've posted up here over the last ? years.

Right at this moment in time, I am feeling very depressed and not sure what my next action needs to be. This, to be truthful, is a bit of a kick in the guts. And that feels like a bit of an understatement.

[ScoutR]

Yep - delete that quotation from post #49 in this thread.

Does that mean they're lurking, unseen, in every image I've posted up here over the last ? years.

I don't think so Donald, if I have been reading this correctly it is the combo of DXO and Sep2 which you just started using recently - yes, no???

[Donald]

I don't think so Donald, if I have been reading this correctly it is the combo of DXO and Sep2 which you just started using recently - yes, no???

Wendy - You are right. I have just recently started using that combination. But it's beyond my ability to understand what on earth is going on.

What is worrying me is that all I'm doing with SEP2 is bringing out the artefact that is already lurking there in the TIFF file that comes out of DxO. Because, as I wrote above the same file, processed with Canon's DPP doesn't contain the artefact at all.

[ScoutR]

I was just looking at your website, and wonder what would happen if you tried SEP2 on "A wall and 2 trees"

Wendy