Canon vs. Nikon

[Machka]

I am in the market for a good DSLR camera ... and first of all, you'll have to forgive me if my terminology isn't quite right here ...

I've decided that I would like either a Canon or Nikon.

I've also decided that I would like either the 60 series or 7 series Canon (or something similar), which I've been told are a high level recreational camera (Canon EOS 60D) and a professional camera (Canon EOS 7D). Is that correct?

But I don't know what a comparable Nikon would be.

I'd like to read some reviews on them all and come to a decision.

Thank you very much for your help

[Hansm]

both brands are with very good reputation.
I think it's better to compare them physically and find out which one feels most comfortable and which menu structure feels the best for you.
The Canon 60D is a very good camera but also the 7D is. There is a price difference and its again up to you if ther differences between both bodys justify the price difference.

[charzes44]

Have a look at
KenRockwell.com.
He reviews many cameras including Canon and Nikon. But don't forget to apply his observations to your own requirements. Good luck in your quest.

[Colin Southern]

and a professional camera (Canon EOS 7D). Is that correct?

Not really. The likes of the 7D is a darn fine camera - and it may well be used professionally - but at the end of the day, Canon's professional cameras are the 1 series (currently 1Ds3 and 1D4, with the 1Dx due to start shipping shortly). The 1D series have things like dual media slots for redundancy - superior weather sealing - more firmware options - more rugged construction - longer shutter life etc.

[thequacksoflife]

I guess the Nikon model would be the d7000. the Nikon D300s which is Nikon's prosumer model is due for a refresh......

if you can then try and hold the cameras and see what works best for you. Remember to budget for good lenses. these cameras are high megapixels so they do start to show up poor lenses......

[enaiman]

You can check also http://www.dpreview.com
They have side-by-side comparisons for cameras and lenses and very good reviews.

[Crovean]

Get the Canikon! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JstJAxtubEA

Serious Mode:

If this is your first DSLR you can't go wrong with going Canon or Nikon. Both brands are good. Do your research, compare prices and availability on your area. Or maybe, go with the brand that you friend has. Who knows he/she might let you borrow some of his lenses or maybe, go with a brand that you friend is not using. So he/she doesn't have to bug you about borrowing one of your lenses later.

When it comes to quality and dependability you can't go wrong with this two brand. You decision will be base more of a preference and/or convenience or which brand is running a discount.

[Harpo]

Canon's professional cameras are the 1 series (currently 1Ds3 and 1D4, with the 1Dx due to start shipping shortly). The 1D series have things like dual media slots for redundancy - superior weather sealing - more firmware options - more rugged construction - longer shutter life etc.

Where does that put the 5D line? semi-pro? I was under the impression the 5D's were pro, while the new 1 series were more super-uber professional!

[Graystar]

My own personal biased opinion is that Nikon is much better than Canon.

Nikon's rough equivalents of the 60D and 7D are the D7000 and D300s. The D300s is due for an update very soon. The D7000 is a great camera. I currently have a Nikon D90, which is also a great camera and can still be found for sale new. The D7000 is a mix of update and upgrade to the D90. I wouldn't mind having a D7000, but for me it doesn't offer any compelling reason to upgrade. But if I didn't have a D90 I would get a D7000, even though it's a couple of hundred dollars more.

With that said, the camera you get should be defined by your needs or by what capabilities you'd like to have. For example, I think the Canon 60D has better video than Nikon. If video is important then go with a Canon. If you want a photographic tool that feels like it's an extension of your hand, then go with Nikon.

I've never given much weight to holding cameras to see how they feel. The small beginner cameras feel terrible and the bigger intermediate cameras feel better and pro cameras feel great. Whichever camera you get, you'll get used to the feel. More important is performance, functionality, and usability, and I think Nikon excels on all three.

But like I said, that's just my own personal biased opinion.

[RockNGoalStar]

I echo Graystar's thoughts above. I also went for the Nikon D90, but would probably go for the D7000 if I were starting out today. I just found that the Nikons felt much nicer in my hand and the buttons were laid out more intuitively for me. I doubt there's any significant difference in image quality when compared to the Canons. It is very important to budget for some good lenses that will cover the different types of photography you want to do.

Best bet is to go down to your local camera store and get a feel for the different cameras in your hand.

[Photon Hacker]

I've also decided that I would like either the 60 series or 7 series Canon (or something similar), which I've been told are a high level recreational camera (Canon EOS 60D) and a professional camera (Canon EOS 7D). Is that correct?

Mu. Don't be mislead by classes like professional and recreational. This classification has no meaning by itself, as far as I know it does not implies any specific feature of the camera unlike the classification into DSLR and mirrorless for instance; they're one-word simplifications of the features of the camera. Look for camera features you could need based on the expected usage for the camera. For instance: Is low light performance important to you?. Compare fast Canon lens with fast Nikon lens and look in high ISO noise measurements. I like http://www.imaging-resource.com/ reviews and measurements. If you tell us what will you use the camera for maybe someone more experienced can provide a specific advice. Also bear in mind the camera is just a tool. Rockwell's essay on the issue is a good read.

Grayster: Could you please elaborate on why do you feel Nikon cameras as an extension to your hand?.

I'm also very interested on the topic as I'm having trouble to decide between these brands (for a non definitive ~900 USD budget). I like the low noise levels of the D5100 compared to the Canon T3i (600D) but its lossy RAW compression bugs me. What about the optics?. What do you guys think of the gamut of lens manufactured by them? (Apart from the fact they're both expensive and perform well).

[Graystar]

Grayster: Could you please elaborate on why do you feel Nikon cameras as an extension to your hand?

(The following is in reference to Nikons and Canons with two control dials.)

On my Nikon D90 I can set a custom WB without even looking at the camera. On a Canon you almost need to carry the camera manual with you.

I prefer to set a custom white balance every time I step into new light. When the color of the light is not an element of the scene (as it is with sunsets and candle lit shots) I find that the most pleasing color comes from a custom white balance. And if I'm changing colors, I find it's the best starting point. I carry a WB reference...a 4"x6" plastic gray card that fits in my back pocket or the booklet pocket of my camera bag. When I step into new light I pull out the card, press the WB button on my D90 for two seconds, hold the card directly in front of the lens, angled to catch the light, and press the shutter. I now have a custom white balance...and it takes about 5 seconds. Nikon's WB process also overexposes the target by one stop over standard exposure for a more accurate reading.

With Canon you have to first take a picture of your WB reference. Since this is not part of the process of setting WB it's just a regular picture...which means the reference will be exposed normally, and you have to deal with the fact that you won't be able to focus (you can focus on the edge of the reference first and reframe.) The Canon manual says to focus manually. Once you have your image you must enter the menu system and select (usually) the second tab and then select Custom White Balance and then select your image and press set and press set again because it asks if you are you sure and then you get out of there and use the WB selection function to select the "custom" icon. Not quite as fluid as the Nikon process.


On Nikon cameras, spot metering follows the selected focus point. On Canon cameras, spot meter only meters the center of the frame.

When shooting in changing-light conditions (sun darting in and out of rolling clouds, for example) I'll get consistent exposure by switching to spot metering and determining an exposure compensation for the tone of my subject. I also like to move the focus point instead of using Focus and Recompose, as F&R can cause blur on fast 50 and 35mm lenses (and it's a slower process.) On my Nikon, I set my EC for the subject and I can then take shot after shot, reframing and shifting the focus point, and know that I'll have sharp focus and consistent exposure of my subject because spot metering is following the focus point.

With Canon, if you want consistent exposure in changing-light conditions then you'll apply EC for the subject tone, spot meter and focus on the subject, and then reframe and shoot. The first problem here is that every shot is a two step process if you want consistent exposure with different framings. The second problem is that the light can change enough while you're reframing to throw off the exposure. Canon cameras, by default, lock exposure on the half-press. Nikon cameras, by default, do not lock exposure on the half-press. Both cameras can switch the behavior, but I think the Nikon stragety is better, as it locks exposure just before firing the shutter. With exposure locking held off to the last possible moment, I know my exposure will be consistent, even if I press the shutter while the sun is emerging from behind a thick dark cloud.


Nikons have the rear control dial situated horizontally and positioned under the thumb. The function of the dials can also be switched. Canon has the rear dial vertically and further down the rear of the camera.

I'm nearly always in A mode and I have my dials switched so that aperture is on the rear dial (I keep EC on the front dial.) This allows me to quickly change aperture. I can take 5 shots at 5 different apertures in about 7 seconds. It's very good for fleeting scenes, like someone waiting to cross a street corner.

With Canon in Av mode, EC is on the rear dial and aperture is on the front dial. That means that you always have to take your finger off the shutter to adjust aperture. You can't switch the function of the dials. But even if you could, the position of the rear dial is awkward for rapid changes, as you practically have to release your grip on the camera to manipulate it. With the camera at the eye, Nikon's rear dial is easier to operate.


Nikons have a Func. button that is operated with the middle finger of the right hand and in the same place on All Nikons (as is the EC button.) Canon's func button is near the shutter on the 7D, gone on the 60D, and somewhere below the LCD on the 1D. The options are also limited. On my D90, I keep the "momentary spot meter" on the Func. button (but there are many other options.) I usually use Matrix metering, but if the lighting gets challenging then I press the Func. button and spot meter. While holding the Func. button I can lock exposure, apply EC, change the aperture, and press the shutter...all because my hand position didn't need to change to press the Func. button (so I can easily reach all buttons.)

There are other important differences, such as the way AE Lock and Auto-ISO work, but basically all of usability factors come together to make the manipulation of a Nikon an extension of the compositional process...the camera just gets out of the way. With Canon, manipulations such as setting a custom white balance or switching to spot metering (and now you have to F&R) just feel like "stop everything" moments...there's no fluidity.

And of course, remember that this is my personal biased opinion, as a Nikon owner.

There was a bit of an uproar nearly two years ago when nature photographer Ole Jørgen Liodden abruptly switched from Canon to Nikon (pretty much overnight.) He said that he never used a Nikon before, but it only took one hour to get very good results.

I'm also very interested on the topic as I'm having trouble to decide between these brands (for a non definitive ~900 USD budget). I like the low noise levels of the D5100 compared to the Canon T3i (600D) but its lossy RAW compression bugs me. What about the optics?. What do you guys think of the gamut of lens manufactured by them? (Apart from the fact they're both expensive and perform well).

I was initially worried about Lossy RAW compression but it actually is nothing to worry about. It works by clipping the lower bits when you have a strong signal. Basically, bright pixels are stored as 8-bit values instead of 12-bit values. The missing 4 bits represent such a small portion of the signal that it's not missed (and they basically represent noise anyways.) Don't worry about it.

Both Canon and Nikon have good lens ranges, each with lenses the other is missing. Nikon has the great 18-105 lens that's the kit lens for the D7000. I have it and it's a very useful zoom range. Unless you already know the type of photography that you will be concentrating on and know the lenses you need, don't worry about the lens selection.

[Colin Southern]

Where does that put the 5D line? semi-pro? I was under the impression the 5D's were pro, while the new 1 series were more super-uber professional!

Hi Mike,

the 5D and 5D2 are often used professionally, but none-the-less Canon still position them as pro-sumer / high-end . Canon reserve the 1D series as their professional / flagship series - and in all honesty, once you've shot with one, others like the 5D just feel like toys. Ultimately folks can use whatever they like for whatever they like, but the likes of the 5D / 5D2 aren't going to withstand 3 days shooting in the rain - or rolling around in the back of a truck - or have anywhere near the same firmware options - or the security of dual media - or a seperate CPU just for AF etc. Many WANT to believe that the 5 series is a pro series, but sadly, it just ain't so.

The standing joke in the industry is that you can use a 1 series to knock out a charging rhinoceros ... and then use it again to photograph the unconscious beast!

[Colin Southern]

Hi Graystar,

I think you'll find that a lot of your comments are no longer valid for many Canon models. Eg ...

With Canon you have to first take a picture of your WB reference.

On mine you can either choose an existing photo, or take the option to take one right then and there and have it automatically used.

The Canon manual says to focus manually.

Normally a Canon Camera won't take a shot in AF mode without focus confirmation -- but it only takes 1/2 second to switch the lens to MF. The actual focus isn't important for a WB shot anyway.

On Nikon cameras, spot metering follows the selected focus point. On Canon cameras, spot meter only meters the center of the frame.

On mine it's firmware selectable.

With Canon, if you want consistent exposure in changing-light conditions then you'll apply EC for the subject tone, spot meter and focus on the subject, and then reframe and shoot.

Can't say that I've ever needed to do this for changing conditions; changing light conditions (perhaps sun going behind clouds) is something the camera caters for automatically in any automatic metering situation. If one wants to spot meter then it's easy enough to just use the AF point closest to the point of interest.

With Canon in Av mode, EC is on the rear dial and aperture is on the front dial.

Again, with mine, these can be swapped in firmware.

With the camera at the eye, Nikon's rear dial is easier to operate.

Well I don't use Nikons often, but I have no problem what-so-ever using a Canon QCD with my thumb whilst looking through the viewfinder -- just isn't an issue in the slightest.

Nikons have a Func. button that is operated with the middle finger of the right hand and in the same place on All Nikons (as is the EC button.) Canon's func button is near the shutter on the 7D, gone on the 60D, and somewhere below the LCD on the 1D. The options are also limited.

Can't say I've found this to be an issue either.

Not trying to start a Canon -v- Nikon war -- but I do like to try to balance things out a little. Probably with both systems, it's just a case of getting used to something -- assuming of course that folks take the time to investigate their issues. The way I see it, Canon aren't stupid - and if Nikon really did enjoy all of those advantages then (a) Canon would be pretty stupid not to incorporate them into their own product lines and (b) Nikon would wipe them off the map. In reality, I feel really comfortable as a Canon shooter -- and I'm sure I'd be just as comfortable as a Nikon shooter.

[Graystar]

Not trying to start a Canon -v- Nikon war --

Me neither...that's why I made clear that I was giving a biased personal opinion

I'd appreciate if you can give some detail as to some of the functions you described. BTW what model Canon do you have? I was basing my comments mainly on the 60D and 7D.

Can you describe the process of taking a picture that gets automatically used for WB? The manuals don't seem to describe any other method, and I've read complaints of Canon not having a quick process.

Can you tell me what firmware option sets spot metering to follow the focus point? I've looked all over the manuals and couldn't find it.

Can you tell me what firmware option swaps the control dials? I know you can swap them for manual mode, but I haven't seen any option to swap the dials when using auto modes.

Thanks.

I have other issues with Canon...the Auto-ISO can't be configured with a minimum shutter speed, can't use EC in manual mode, AE Lock is cleared after a shot unless you press a button (except for 1D)...my previous list was not exhaustive.

It's also interesting to me that cameras today are so complex that they can have such large degrees of operational differences. Pentax and Sony both have other functions that neither Nikon nor Canon have.

[Colin Southern]

Hello again,

I'd appreciate if you can give some detail as to some of the functions you described. BTW what model Canon do you have? I was basing my comments mainly on the 60D and 7D.

Currently a 1Ds3.

Can you describe the process of taking a picture that gets automatically used for WB? The manuals don't seem to describe any other method, and I've read complaints of Canon not having a quick process.

Sure Setup -> Custom WB -> (select which memory to store it in) (1 to 5) -> Select "Record and Register Image" -> "job done".

Can you tell me what firmware option sets spot metering to follow the focus point? I've looked all over the manuals and couldn't find it.

Sure - it's Function 1-7 on the 1Ds3 - page 157 of the manual.

Can you tell me what firmware option swaps the control dials? I know you can swap them for manual mode, but I haven't seen any option to swap the dials when using auto modes.

Ah - my apologies. I only use that setting in manual mode -- and can't see an option to swap them in Av / Tv mode. I don't have my camera at home with me at the moment, so I'll have to have a think about it to see if I can come up with a work around. Normally I don't change aperture much "on the fly" as I'm primarily wanting to control DoF, so shutterspeed is the usual variable.

Auto-ISO can't be configured with a minimum shutter speed

Works OK on the 1Ds3 - we just tie it in with safety-shift.

can't use EC in manual mode,

Um - there's really no such thing as exposure compensation in manual exposure mode (probably why they don't have it!) - you can easily change the exposure by looking at the built-in meter though (in manual mode it's in advisory mode).

AE Lock is cleared after a shot unless you press a button (except for 1D)...my previous list was not exhaustive.

Yep - that's a good thing in my book If you want it to persist, I'd just use manual mode.

It's also interesting to me that cameras today are so complex that they can have such large degrees of operational differences. Pentax and Sony both have other functions that neither Nikon nor Canon have.

In my mind, it's the same reason a Formula 1 car is more complex than a road car. It's a little daunting at first, but it's the only way to customise the camera for different shooting environments. My personal approach was to simply embrace the options - study them - play with them - get to know them - and then use them

[dedy]

This is about Canon Future http://www.lionthinks.com/canon/futu...slr-camera.htm, how about Nikon???

[Graystar]

Currently a 1Ds3.

Ah…yes, the 1D has options that the 7D and 60D (or even the 5D) don't have.

Sure Setup -> Custom WB -> (select which memory to store it in) (1 to 5) -> Select "Record and Register Image" -> "job done".

It's interesting that my Canon A710 compact camera has a similar function. When selecting the desired WB setting, if the custom icon is selected at that point I can press "MENU" and a custom WB will be registered. Looks like only the full-frame models offer this option. It's still a far cry from the Nikon process, though, which is available on all Nikons.

Sure - it's Function 1-7 on the 1Ds3 - page 157 of the manual.

Okay. That's one of those options that only the 1D has that other bodies don't.

Works OK on the 1Ds3 - we just tie it in with safety-shift.

Yes, that does work to prevent underexposure. I think the Nikon process gives more control, however. I can set the minimum shutter speed I need for the subject content and then remain in A mode to set the aperture I want. So the Auto-ISO will kick in even if my aperture is not at its widest. This is useful for sports where I don't really care what the shutter is as long as it's at least 1/250s. With SS, you'd have to stay in Tv mode to maintain the shutter speed you need, and the aperture will always be at its widest before the ISO increase kicks in. At least that's my understanding of Safety Shift.

You can also use Auto-ISO in manual mode to control both the shutter and aperture. I don't like that option because if lighting gets bright and ISO 200 (in my case) isn't low enough, the camera won't increase the shutter to keep my exposure level.

Um - there's really no such thing as exposure compensation in manual exposure mode (probably why they don't have it!) - you can easily change the exposure by looking at the built-in meter though (in manual mode it's in advisory mode).

There are three times where EC is useful in manual mode. The first, and most useful, is when using Auto-ISO. With Auto-ISO, manual mode is now a hybrid auto mode, and the only way to adjust exposure is with EC. The second case is when shooting snowy landscapes or high-key photographs. Such photographs usually need at least +2 stops of compensation. You can set +2 EC, which will shift the meter indicator two stops to the negative side. This will allow a person to use aperture/shutter to apply small adjustments with the meter indicator centered, rather than working with the meter indicator at the far edge of the meter range. This is more useful for the consumer bodies, where the meters only indicate +/- two stops. The third case in which EC is useful is in determining the GND required to balance a scene. First, you meter the shadow side of the landscape and center the meter indicator. Next, you meter the highlight side of the scene. This time, apply EC until the meter indicator is centered. The EC value equals the GND needed to balance the scene. Just drop in the correct GND and shoot because exposure is already set correctly. (oh...on a Nikon you press the EC button to apply EC, and it displays a numeric value in the viewfinder...so that's how you see the EC value. I don't think Canons display the EC amounts above 2 without a trip to the menu.)

Yep - that's a good thing in my book If you want it to persist, I'd just use manual mode.

I'd rather use exposure lock because the auto modes still work, so I can lock an exact exposure level and still change aperture in A mode or shutter in S mode, and the camera will adjust the parameters under its control to maintain my locked exposure. This works great with A mode and Auto ISO, where shutter and ISO may change. So one turn of a dial may adjust three separate parameters. The important thing to note is that the selected settings are exactly what I would have selected using manual mode because the camera is maintaining my locked exposure.

Canon describes how to set the 1D for an extended AE Lock...
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources..._article.shtml

In my mind, it's the same reason a Formula 1 car is more complex than a road car. It's a little daunting at first, but it's the only way to customise the camera for different shooting environments. My personal approach was to simply embrace the options - study them - play with them - get to know them - and then use them

On that we can agree.

And again, this is all very personally biased based on how I like to control a camera. I couldn't even use a Canon to shoot because of the AE Lock and Auto-ISO limitations, but I'm sure there are people who could get nothing done with a Nikon because it doesn't fit their own personal style.

[Colin Southern]

It's interesting that my Canon A710 compact camera has a similar function. When selecting the desired WB setting, if the custom icon is selected at that point I can press "MENU" and a custom WB will be registered. Looks like only the full-frame models offer this option. It's still a far cry from the Nikon process, though, which is available on all Nikons.

To be honest, I usually just shoot a reference gray and colour card with each lighting config, and then both white balance and colour profile all the shots in a series with a few clicks in ACR (and up until that point keep the camera in auto WB mode).

Yes, that does work to prevent underexposure. I think the Nikon process gives more control, however. I can set the minimum shutter speed I need for the subject content and then remain in A mode to set the aperture I want.

The 1Ds3 has options for minimum and maximum shutterspeed, although for some reason they set the fastest minimum speed to 1/60th, and the lowest maximum speed to to 1/250th (I must admit that I never really understood that decision -- possibly a mechanism to stop people thinking they had a broken camera because they mis-set those settings). To be honest, I never really use safety shift / auto ISO - I'm just not getting big enough variations in lighting to warrent it.

So the Auto-ISO will kick in even if my aperture is not at its widest. This is useful for sports where I don't really care what the shutter is as long as it's at least 1/250s. With SS, you'd have to stay in Tv mode to maintain the shutter speed you need, and the aperture will always be at its widest before the ISO increase kicks in. At least that's my understanding of Safety Shift.

I see your point, but in practice (for me), I'd just start with a base ISO that gets the shutterspeed in the target range and stay in Av mode.

There are three times where EC is useful in manual mode. The first, and most useful, is when using Auto-ISO. With Auto-ISO, manual mode is now a hybrid auto mode, and the only way to adjust exposure is with EC.

This seems somewhat counter-productive to me - if I'm wanting manual control then I wouldn't want the camera changing ISO willy-nilly on me - that would be a disaster for a lot of things that I shoot. I take what you mean about the metering indication (1Ds3 has 3 stops anyway), but again, I don't think I'd want a centred meter because it wouldn't give me a true indication of where things are going to expose - especially when I have up to 7 spot-metered points graphed on the meter.

With regards to using it in conjunction with GNDs, good theory, but in practice, I'd never do it this way -- IMO opinion trying to balance a shot this way is flawed because it breaks the rules of local contrast; for example, if you have a scene with a sunset skyline - and a "balanced" foreground - then one would naturally expect the skyline (being incident light) to be brighter - when it's at the same level as the foreground, it just doesn't look right. Ironically, I find that 99 times out of 100, it's a 3-Stop thet I need anyway (seems to be the most common difference between incident light and reflected light coming from shadow detail that I want to protect).

On that we can agree.

Knew we'd find common ground eventually

And again, this is all very personally biased based on how I like to control a camera. I couldn't even use a Canon to shoot because of the AE Lock and Auto-ISO limitations, but I'm sure there are people who could get nothing done with a Nikon because it doesn't fit their own personal style.

To be honest, I think I'd enjoy shooting with one for a few weeks - would be something new to learn, and would no doubt give me a good appreciation for the "Nikon way" - in reality however, I'm so so so so invested in Canon lenses and equipment that it just ain't gunna happen. I do think however that it probably still comes down to shooting styles and preferences - mine are entrenched around the Canon way and yours the Nikon way - which is fine of course

[beechdale basher]

http://snapsort.com/

This is a comparison site it may be of help