Nikon D800E vs. D800: Which is more Diffraction Limited?

[Colin Southern]

Oops. Thanks for the reminder. I was thinking sigma foveon sensors at the time which have no anti alias filter and no Bayer filter.

Alex

Yeah - they were an interesting inititive. I haven't looked too far into them, but I'm guessing that there is a downside as well, or canikon (and others) would have copied them by now.

[chicagonature]

My original question was concerned with how the new Nikon D800/D800E Technical Guide described the D800E with this quote on page 16:
"The D800E offers better resolution at apertures where diffraction is not an issue. The effects of aperture may therefore be more noticeable than with the D800, and care may be required to avoid loss of definition due to diffraction."
And, after I've read it 15 times, I'm now agreeing with what blackpearl (Robin) has said about it above. Essentially, the D800E is so sharp that diffraction is more noticeable, BUT NO WORSE, than the D800. Except that I think Nikon's explanation is very confusing. I originally interpretted is as the D800E will show worse results when diffraction comes into play.

So, as far as that matter goes, the question is now answered and I'll be sticking with the D800E and I truly appreciate everyone's input. Of course, this is not to say that we should stop interacting because there have been some very good points made on this thread, especially how calculatons and results in the real world tend to conflict.

Thanks again!
Mike

[herbert]

Yeah - they were an interesting inititive. I haven't looked too far into them, but I'm guessing that there is a downside as well, or canikon (and others) would have copied them by now.

Each pixel measures the three colours of light using the fact that light of different wavelengths penetrate the sensor to a different level. However due to the different penetration of light through the sensor losing light and the overlapping nature of the three primaries I have read that the colours are not as good. With no real experience of the images I cannot say if this is true. Samples I have seen on the web and in magazines show different colours, but colour is a subjective thing anyway.

Canon do have a patent on an apparently Foveon like sensor. But this may just be a big corporation with a big R&D budget protecting future avenues.

Alex

[herbert]

I'm now agreeing with what blackpearl (Robin) has said about it above. Essentially, the D800E is so sharp that diffraction is more noticeable, BUT NO WORSE, than the D800. Except that I think Nikon's explanation is very confusing.

That would be the best conclusion.

I think Nikon's statement may be due to a 'lost in translation' effect.

Enjoy your new D800E.

Alex

[BuzzMega]

To my thinking, the idea of diffraction limitation as a determining factor of which camera to buy is putting way too fine a point on the idea. The performance of either camera is within sub-pixel improvements or limitations. But there is a HUGE difference in how the movie modes perform, based on which model is chosen. The D800 is much better in the way it handles most subject matter in 1080p.

The D800 is—at worst—a bit less contrasty when asked to handle detail in the 1-pixel realm. I see that all the time when shooting with any of the Holy Trinity of Nikkors. Detail often shows in the <1.6 pixel realm, accounting for aliasing.

Who shows images that are printed so large that even 1% of viewers would ever say, "Gee, too bad about that aliasing. I guess the guy couldn't afford the D800E to shoot this giant image."

There are no museums exhibiting micro-degrees of sub-pixel improvement in 36.15 MP imagery. While the tech may be endlessly fascinating to mull, at the diffraction limit and sub-pixel tweak levels, those qualities don't win awards, make photographers famous or communicate to 99.9% of viewers.

But the movie mode moiré can lose respect from viewers. Everybody can see that. "Why's Big Ben so critzie?"

[Manfred M]

Hi Alex,

Thanks so much for the very thorough response!

If you were to bottom line it, are you saying I'd be slightly better off with the D800 than the D800E if I'm going to use it at smaller apertures?

I am also wondering about sharpness and how softness from diffraction differs from depth of field softness. Since digital is 3-5 times sharper than film (at a given format size, according to this article: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...mits_long.html) and that quite possibly the 36MP sensor out performs the 645 film, I wonder if I can shoot at a larger aperture and still achieve the same perceived sharpness. For example, say I shot a landscape at f/10 and focus at the hyperfocal distance instead of setting the lens to f/20 and using that hyperfocal distance, the subject in the middle will definitely be sharper because of the vastly less diffraction. BUT, how will the out-of-focus area of the f/10 shot compare to the the same area in the f/20 shot impaired by diffraction? Could it be possible for the f/10 shot to appear sharper than the f/20 picture even at the nearest and farthest ends.

Digital is SO sharp that softer areas in the corners, say, will sometimes appear terrible, but only in because of the side-by-side comparison. However, if you'd compare this soft corner (side-by-side) to the center sharpness of film, the difference wouldn't be that bad in comparison. So, maybe the softer out-of-focus area shot at f/10 would be sharp enough.

What do you think?

Mike

In practical terms you need to look everything at affects image quality, rather than looking at diffraction effects in isolation. Your diffraction limit is going to just one element that affects overall image quality, and unless you ALWAYS shoot on a tripod at f/8, other issues are going to creep in and have an impact as great or greater than the diffraction limit. Take your top end pro lens and shoot it wide open, or even one or two stops down, lens aberations are going to affect sharpness as much if not more than diffraction at f/11and beyond. Likewise camera motion from handholding at moderate shutter speeds is likewise going to downgrade image quaility more than diffraction limits.

I am a D800 shooter, and unless I enlarge my images to a ludicrous size and pixel peep, in practical terms, I've never seen a reason to worry about diffraction limit impact on my work.