Layers

[jcuknz]

I started with a 1/8th share of a Sinclair ZX80 that a group of us at work chipped in $50 each to participate in this new 'thing' :-) $350 for the 1024bytes, save on tape, and $50 for the power supply. Then Apple gave the TV station I worked for a machine to use on a kiids programme we originated and staff were permitted to use it when it was not on-air in the studio. Great Fun!

If anybody want to giv an explanation of layer masks, or a link to how to use them that is a gap in my knowledge despite using ALs for everything except sharpening .... How often do you catch yourself trying to sharpen an AL :-)

[Colin Southern]

If anybody want to giv an explanation of layer masks, or a link to how to use them that is a gap in my knowledge despite using ALs for everything except sharpening

They simply determine which part(s) of the image the adjustment layer applies to; it might be something as "cut and dried" as the upper 1/3 of the image that limits a contrast adjustment to the sky only, or it might be something more complicated like an HSB adjustment to only the black stripes on a zebra. The beauty of them is that - as they're basically only a greyscale image - you can paint them with black or white (or gray) at any stage to change/tweak what they apply to.

To create a mask, just create an adjustment layer with something already selected.

[FrankMi]

The best book I've seen to get started using Layers without getting overwhelmed in Photoshop is "Layers: the most complete guide to Photoshop's most powerful feature" by Matt Kloskowski.

[OldFrank]

Ha - more than you think ... before the IBM PC I had an Osborne 1 ... and before that a Sinclair ZX80 (that I used to do assembly language programming on) ... and before THAT I was programming on HP41c calculators ... and before THAT the Texas Instruments TI58 (not TI58c, darn it).

I was involved in the PC inductry since before there was a PC industry! (remember DOS 1.0 - CP/M - Topview - Windows 2.0 ... seen em all!) Not to mention WordStar - SuperCalc - dBase II - Lotus123 ... oh gawd, I AM old

Me too and I'll add the Apple II with 2 floppy drives and 48K RAM. I programmed it in Basic and Assembly. I'm 82 yrs.

[Colin Southern]

Me too and I'll add the Apple II with 2 floppy drives and 48K RAM. I programmed it in Basic and Assembly. I'm 82 yrs.

Yes - the Apple II was certainly a game changer. I also remember the IIe, III, and Lisa.

[jcuknz]

To create a mask, just create an adjustment layer with something already selected.

Thankyou Colin :-) I have been using adjustment layers extensively and on most shots I take in some form or other but 'masking layers' was some mysterious technique that the experts used and superior to my erase approach. Thank you for that little sentance which makes it tumble into my brain :-)

Computers ... I was going for my Yachtmaster's ticket and wanted something to practice visual morse so I wrote an Apple programme to do that ... then the Station Manager wanted me to learn Forth ... urrgh NO way :-) Then I realised, after reading the book "The Hackers", I would have to choose between computers or boating/work and I choose the later and computers are just a tool I use to communicate with.

[Colin Southern]

Thankyou Colin :-) I have been using adjustment layers extensively and on most shots I take in some form or other but 'masking layers' was some mysterious technique that the experts used and superior to my erase approach. Thank you for that little sentance which makes it tumble into my brain :-)

No worries

They're handy little buggers. A good example is a couple of shots posted here that I've retouched to tone down the clothing; I start by creating a selection around the clothing - produce an adjustment layer (HSB) (which simply creates a black and white mask for the adjustment, based on the selection) (white reveals the changes, black masks it off) - but of course the selection is never perfect. With a mask, one can simply hand retouch the mask with black or white to extend the mask (or retract it) in problem areas ... so it doesn't matter if the initial select was less than perfect.

[oldgreygary]

I noticed while looking at software that various plugins are offered. The ones I looked at seemed to create a seperate Tiff image which you then worked on. I guess that if later you didn't like those adjustments you would need to create another Tiff and start again. Is this the sort of situation where layers would work? e.g. you did some sharpening saved but later decided that it needed changing so with layers you could use the same image but you can switch off the layer you didn't want and create a new one? So, in effect without creating numerous tiff files you could have several versions of an image just by having different layers you could switch on and off?

Cheers for now

Gary

[Colin Southern]

Hi Gary,

There are many different types of layers - those containing image pixels - text - adjustment etc.

In the case of sharpening for example, you could simply duplicate the layer with the pixels of the portion you wanted to sharpen (which may also be all of them) - do your sharpening - then switch the layer off and on a few times to see the effect - perhaps vary its opacity to reduce the effect - or delete it altogether.

You just need to be careful which layers you do further editing on (eg if you have two identical layers - and the top one is set to 50% opacity - and then you try to remove a spot whilst the top layer is still selected then you'll end up with it only 1/2 removed (which can be a good or a bad thing).

[Geoff F]

Just one thought about saving an image which contains layers, Gary.

With most software, saving in the native format for that programme usually preserves layers intact so they are editable if the image is opened again.

Some software will still do this when saved as Tiff but not as Jpeg. But be aware that some programmes will automatically merge layers saved or exported as Tiff; so they cannot appear when the image is opened again. The layer effects will be permanently included into the photo.

With other formats, like PNG for example, it is really a case of experimenting to discover how layers are treated.

ps. I don't use PNG very often but it does retain transparency so I find it useful for some items which are mixed with other software, for example text based programmes.

[rawill]

Searched and found this thread.

My problem is, I do not seem to be able to get "layers" to work.
Working with GIMP, I add a new layer, then try to adjust the colours using curves, but I can not see anything changing.

At the moment I am starting at the "playing in the sandpit stage".
So I am missing something pretty basic.

I have read up the GIMP manual, looked at the relevant GIMP video tutorial and had a look at You Tube videos.

I am sure it can not be that hard, but I am missing a basic step.

I thought if I created a layer, then used the curves tool I would see changes happening to the image the way it happens if you apply curves to the base image.

[Donald]

Working with GIMP, I add a new layer, then try to adjust the colours using curves,

Robin - I might be being stupid here, but I'm not sure what you're meaning in saying you're trying to adjust colours using curves. If you add a layer and then open up the curves tool, that's going to allow you to work on contrast and tone, not colours, is it not? To adjust colours you're going to have to go to 'Color Balance Tool'.

If you open up the curves tool and start shifting that diagonal line that runs from bottom left to top right, what happens? Are you seeing things changing?

EDIT - Just an additional thought. When you say add a new layer, are you really adding a new layer or are you duplicating the previous layer?

[DanK]

I noticed while looking at software that various plugins are offered. The ones I looked at seemed to create a seperate Tiff image which you then worked on. I guess that if later you didn't like those adjustments you would need to create another Tiff and start again. Is this the sort of situation where layers would work? e.g. you did some sharpening saved but later decided that it needed changing so with layers you could use the same image but you can switch off the layer you didn't want and create a new one? So, in effect without creating numerous tiff files you could have several versions of an image just by having different layers you could switch on and off?

Cheers for now

Gary

Gary,

I think you may be confusing adjustments with one particular tool for making those adjustments (layers). Lightroom does not have layers, but it does have substantial editing controls, e.g., for saturation, color balance, sharpening, contrast, noise reduction, etc. So the need for adjustments does not always imply a need for layers.

Unlike some of the others here, I do most of my work without layers. I use layers when I need them--in particular, when I want to edit different parts of an image differently, if I want to blend images, or if I want to do luminance-only contrast adjustments. I also use photoshop occasionally because some of its adjustments are more flexible than those in Lightroom. E.g., it has more options for sharpening, and it has a much better cloning tool. However, a lot of my work is macro work for which the editing in Lightroom is quite sufficient.

In Lightroom, you can accomplish what you described in this note by saving multiple virtual copies, or even just "snapshots" at various points in editing. Lightroom does not modify the image itself, but instead compiles a list of edits that it applies. You can build many of these lists for any base image.

That said, as little as I use layers, when I need them, there is no alternative.

Dan

[rawill]

Robin - I might be being stupid here, but I'm not sure what you're meaning in saying you're trying to adjust colours using curves. If you add a layer and then open up the curves tool, that's going to allow you to work on contrast and tone, not colours, is it not? To adjust colours you're going to have to go to 'Color Balance Tool'.

If you open up the curves tool and start shifting that diagonal line that runs from bottom left to top right, what happens? Are you seeing things changing?

EDIT - Just an additional thought. When you say add a new layer, are you really adding a new layer or are you duplicating the previous layer?

That's exactly it Donald, I am not at all sure what I am doing yet.
However I have been looking at the "Boat in the Fog" tutorial.

I suspect I have found the step I was missing. A little more experimenting and playing around might confirm that.
What I was trying to do was create a new layer of the base image, manipulate some colour curves, trying out the S shape to see what would happen to the image.

As well in a new layer I wanted to select a section, like the sea or sky, and change the contrast and sharpness.

But anyway, here is hoping that persistence pays off.

Thank you for your questions and input.

[John Morton]

This looks like the perfect place to ask about whether or not I'm using Layers correctly for a desired effect. I've recently started to experiment with combining two images, the original with adjustments in ACR and a B&W copy with added contrast, tone, etc. What I've been doing is opening the original image in Photoshop and double clicking on the layer to turn it into a regular layer and choosing color from the drop down menu in the Layers palette. Then I open my B&W copy as a separate file and change it to a regular layer. I use the move tool to combine the B&W layer with the original image and change the B&W layer to one of the choices from the drop down menu inside the Layers palette (depending on what effect seems to work best) and then combine down (I can't remember the exact name of the command in the Layers menu. I don't usually mess with the opacity on any of the layers so I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. I then sharpen with USM and really like the results I've been getting but I'd like to know if this is the best way to achieve this effect?

Hi, Patrick;

I also often use a black and white version of an image to adjust contrast to the color version; and of course, in Photoshop there are probably a half dozen ways to go about doing that. Colin mentioned one - layer stacks - so here are a few more:

1) Process a duplicated version into a black and white file; use the move tool and the shift button (to register it properly) to drag it onto the original; use the blending modes between layers to adjust the effect.

2) Duplicate a new layer of the color version by dragging the background layer onto the "New Layer" button on the bottom of the layers palette; convert the new layer to black and white; adjust and blend as needed.

3) Duplicate your image; convert it to black and white; then use the "Fade" command under the "Edit" menu and change the blending mode right there! Adjust the degree to which the original is affected by using the "Fade" opacity slider.

I have a plug-in that lets me store a copy of any image in a separate, active memory file and then uses that copy to do various adjustments to the open image; so I might tend to save my image into that active memory, convert it to black and white, then adjust the black and white version using the stored original color version. I can then use the "Fade" command to adjust the result a little bit more.

[Lon Howard]

Searched and found this thread.

My problem is, I do not seem to be able to get "layers" to work.
Working with GIMP, I add a new layer, then try to adjust the colours using curves, but I can not see anything changing.

I thought if I created a layer, then used the curves tool I would see changes happening to the image the way it happens if you apply curves to the base image.

Hi Robin,

I hope you've found your solution, but if not, then just another thought. I have the same questions as Donald as to how you obtained your additional layer, but that aside ...

I've never used Gimp but it appears they don't have adjustment layers, so assuming layers work essentially the same as in photoshop: However you added the new layer (whether by duplicating the previous layer or not), you must have that new layer selected if the curves tool is going to work. If a different layer is selected, then the curves tool won't work.

But interestingly, in PS you don't have to even add a new layer, the curves tool will work on the top layer (even the background layer) as long as it isn't blank. I would guess Gimp works the same.

That's all I could think of ... layers can be weird but hang in there!

[rawill]

I would guess Gimp works the same.

That's all I could think of ... layers can be weird but hang in there!

Many thanks Lon,
and YES, curves does put a new "layer" not really a "layer" though.

You will have to excuse a newbie trying to understand all this "new to me" information.

What I was trying to do was make changes to an image, "layer" and then be able click and see the differences.
Then make up my mind if I like what I've done or not.

Not to worry, slowly getting there.

I am getting to be a GIMP user, along with FastStone and Capture.NX2, price is the determining factor for me!!

[jcuknz]

I'm not going to trawl through all the answers but in case it has not ben mentioned if you can split your file in Gimp into Hue Saturation and Luminance or else into CMYK you should try doing it and sharpening just the Luminance or K image. The theory behind this is that you only need to sharpen that part of the image and problems come from sharpening the Hue and Saturation [CMY] as well.

[jcuknz]

Searched and found this thread.

My problem is, I do not seem to be able to get "layers" to work.
Working with GIMP, I add a new layer, then try to adjust the colours using curves, but I can not see anything changing.

At the moment I am starting at the "playing in the sandpit stage".
So I am missing something pretty basic.

I have read up the GIMP manual, looked at the relevant GIMP video tutorial and had a look at You Tube videos.

I am sure it can not be that hard, but I am missing a basic step.

I thought if I created a layer, then used the curves tool I would see changes happening to the image the way it happens if you apply curves to the base image.

I would hope that somewhere on the menu you have a button to enable you to see what you are doing in the curves [ HSB or whatever tool you want to use] menu being applied to your image ... except the beauty of an adjustment layer is that nothing is being done IN the picture it is all in the adjustment layer until you merge the layers and then it is locked in [ or you save as a jpg ... but my programme always asks me if I really want to merge the layers and also if I do and save it somewhere I can then 'undo' and return to save the layer stack in the 'programme' system ... in my case Paint Shop Pro so I use pspimage when I want to save the layers as such with the image. You can have numerous layers and if you switch them off you just see the original image without modifications [ as Colin outlined back there ]

Once it tumbles you will be firing on all cylinders ... but it took me several months after reading about it before my penny dropped Nil desparandum [ or something]

[ggt]

oooh, Layers is where all the fun is, IMHO. Then again, I am working on my photography skills to improve my Photoshop final product. I play alot in Photoshop. I equate layers to working with pencil and ink. Instead of using tracing paper to experiment with different versions of the subject, I can just create another layer. If i don't like it, I delete it.

There are soooo many ways to play and make variations in Photoshop. I expect it to keep my interest for years to come.

Good Luck!