How to capture Max DOF (infinity) and use Fill Flash

[DennisS]

Here is my scenario - I was on vacation last week with my Nikon D5100 (with 35mm Prime and 50-200m). I was on the beach in bright sunlight but there was no direct sunlight falling on my subject (wife). My intent was to get the background completely in focus (no bokeh) and use Fill Flash to expose the subject correctly.

I stopped down my aperture to f/16 with ISO100 and shutter at 1/100 (Sunny 16 rule) and Matrix metering (i-TTL-BL). I was in Manual Mode and ensured that the frame was metered dead center. The subject was about 10 feet away and Focus was at AF-S (wide). Flash Compensation was at 0EV.

The result was that the foreground was underexposed by 2 stops.

I tried experimenting with spot metering (TTL) and Manual (FULL Power) but not been able to get the subject exposed correctly. I have also bumped up FC but no success. I only had success when I opened the aperture below f/8 but that would reduce the DOF (background no longer in complete focus since focus diamond is on subject).

Any suggestions to get background completely in focus and at the same time expose the subject correctly as well as in focus?

[Manfred M]

It would be easier if we could see the image, but I can make an educated guess as to what happened.

You are trying a very tricky shot especially in an uncontrolled (outdoor) environment. You are trying to properly expose the foreground, background and the subject. You essentially have three completely different lighting situations here, and based on what you've written, you've managed to get the background and main subject properly lit, but have blown out the foreground. I would guess what has happened is that your flash setting, which was right for your wife (as determined by your camera) was not focused on just her, but also illuminated the foreground. Being closer to the camera than your subject means it received more light and got blown out.

The way I would approach the shot is to use off-camera flash uisng a Nikon Speedlight that your camera can control on a stand, with some light shaping (i.e. a flag). I would also shoot off a tripod to ensure that everything is positioned correctly. You were lucky that your rule of thumb seemed to work. I personally do not believe in them. I would have gotten a properly exposed background, using an appropriate aperture and ISO setting to get you the depth of field that you need at a speed setting that is at or below the flash synch setting of your camera (I think it is 1/200th for the D5100). I would put the camera on manual; set the speed and aperture setting, based on the settings from your test shots (using the histogram for guidance). This would ensure that the background (and foreground) is properly exposed.

I would then fire up the flash on a stand (likely using a shoot-through umbrella) and use a cable to ensure that the camera and flash communicate properly. I would then shoot this. Because you are going through a Nikon SC-29 TTL Off-Camera Shoe Cord, the camera would cut off the flash once it metered that enough light bounced back off your subject to illuminate her properly. Now you would have both the background and subject properly lit.

The last step would be to examine the shot and put a flag on a light stand below the flash, and through trial and error position it so that the spill on the foreground is controlled. You might be able to play with the shoot through setting to control the light spill as well, but I suspect a flag will be required.

Now you have a setting where you are correctly exposing the foreground, background and subject....

[William W]

The Flash is simply too far away and is absolutely incapable of Flash as Fill to F/16 at 10ft WD . . .

I was on the beach in bright sunlight but there was no direct sunlight falling on my subject (wife). My intent was to get the background completely in focus (no bokeh) and use Fill Flash to expose the subject correctly.
I stopped down my aperture to f/16 with ISO100 and shutter at 1/100 (Sunny 16 rule) . . .The subject was about 10 feet away and Focus was at AF-S (wide). Flash Compensation was at 0EV.
The result was that the foreground was underexposed by 2 stops.
I only had success when I opened the aperture below f/8

From the information supplied it is safe to conclude that the Flash unit has a Guide Number of about 80ft ~ 90ft @ ISO100.

Rationale -
Your Subject was 10ft away and the Flash Fill exposure required was F/16 @ ISO100: but at F/16 when the Flash was on Full Power the resultant Fill was -2 EV . . . rechecking you stated that the Flash only had enough Power to make F/8 @ ISO100 at that 10ft Working Distance . . . hence GN is about = 80ft @ ISO100

Any suggestions to get background completely in focus and at the same time expose the subject correctly as well as in focus?

Knowing the Guide Number of the Flash we can now set the Fill Lighting to suit your requirements

If you want to keep that 10ft SD (Shooting Distance), and you require F/16 for the DoF required: then assuming the Flash’s GN (Guide Number) is 80ft @ ISO100 -

You need to get the Flash OFF the Camera and situate it 5ft WD (Working Distance) from the Subject and use it on Max power.



[GN (@ ISO) = F/stop x Working Distance (@ ISO)]

80ft (@ ISO100) = 16 x 5ft (@100 ISO)


Knowing the Guide Number of the Flash and shooting on a sunny day there is no need to meter anything for Flash as Fill. . . you just need a tape measure to position the Flash and use it on Full Power.


WW

[Manfred M]

Bill - I got the impression that he had the fill flash set correctly as he indicates the background and his subject were properly exposed. His issue seems to be overexposure of the foreground, which sounds like a light-shaping / control issue with the flash.

It would be nice to see an actual image...

[Colin Southern]

Bill - I got the impression that he had the fill flash set correctly as he indicates the background and his subject were properly exposed. His issue seems to be overexposure of the foreground, which sounds like a light-shaping / control issue with the flash.

It would be nice to see an actual image...

Dennis appears to use foreground and subject interchangeably - so I'm guessing that they're one and the same.

I agree with Bill though - asking a flash to "step up to the plate" at F16 @ 10 feet is a big ask.

[Manfred M]

Dennis appears to use foreground and subject interchangeably - so I'm guessing that they're one and the same.

I agree with Bill though - asking a flash to "step up to the plate" at F16 @ 10 feet is a big ask.

If he is using the built in flash, I would have to agree and as he does not not mention using an external flash, I suspect that you are right. I remember having trouble getting enough light output from my SB-900 for fill-flash during the middle of the day in a tropical setting; but then I was also shooting with my 70-200mm lens set to close to 200mm...

[William W]

I understood that the “foreground” comprised the Subject, which was to be filled by the flash – ergo the Subject was underexposed by two stops relative to the background which was the beach scene illuminated by the Ambient Direct Sunlight.

“foreground” is a term used commonly in this manner/meaning in many texts, when Flash is being used as Fill in sunlight: and the term "foreground" used in this meaning also is found in some EOS based technical papers - although I note the OP is using Nikon.

I agree that an image or at least clarification of this point would benefit the discussion

However, I further assumed that ONE ONLY typical hot-shoe Flash was being used and being used on the camera - and at a WD of 10ft, I do not know of many (I know of not one) flash units which have an adequate fill range, for F/16 at ISO100, at that WD.

WW

[William W]

If he is using the built in flash, I would have to agree and as he does not not mention using an external flash, I suspect that you are right.

Manfred,

Even if the OP is using an external Flash . . .

I re-iterate: I know of no hotshoe Flash, which could make that Fill.


WW

[Manfred M]

Manfred,

Even if the OP is using an external Flash . . .

I re-iterate: I know of no hotshoe Flash, which could make that Fill.


WW

Bill - Again we are doing a lot of guessing here on how he shot things. You are being generous with the GN; the internal flash on the D5100 is about half of what you calculate (published GN is 43ft @ ISO100), so I don't think the camera's flash has the power to do what he is trying to do. I do think I could manage with my SB900; 111.5ft at ISO100 @ 35mm; 157.5ft at ISO200 @ 35mm (I'm assuming he is shooting with his prime).

I suspect that one could stop down to around f/11, manually focus a bit behind the subject and let the DOF take care of the focus , increase shutter speed to 1/200th @ ISO 100 to keep the background exposure the same and then blast the larger flash at full power, the subject and background shot be properly exposed.

On the other hand, as I said before, I would ideally shoot this with an off camera flash, so the flash to subject distance would be less of an issue; with the flash closer to the subject, but out of view from the camera. The "rules" for this type of shot are still the same. Expose for the background (shooting at or below the camera's synch speed) and then use the flash to properly light the subject. Light-shape the flash, if required.

[Graystar]

I only had success when I opened the aperture below f/8

And there's the proof that you simply ran out of flash power. When you take a shot and the flash can't supply enough light to properly illuminate the scene, the flash-ready indicator in the viewfinder will blink. See page 225 of the D5100 manual.

You must appreciate the fact that for every stop narrower on the aperture, you're asking the flash to produce 100% more light. That's a tall order when working in daylight with small apertures.

You could have addressed the problem by having raised the ISO to 200, shutter to 1/200, and aperture to f/11. That would get you two stops. That's really the best you can achieve.

[DennisS]

My apologies for creating ambiguity and leaving out critical information.

Yes, the flash was built-in and subject is same as foreground (meaing my wife). Her face was underexposed. Unfortunately I do not have permission to post the picture (what with swim suit, etc...!!).... . I will attempt to recreate this again but as already posted by some, this lighting is difficult to work with and not easy to recreate - need some background in the distance to test it.

I have come to believe from all the posts (thank you all those who shared), the issue is with the power of the flash. So following up with that conclusion, what would be the minimum equipment I need to make such a photo possible without blowing a lot of dollars. I do not have a separate flash yet but the answer may give me a lead to what I would need/budget when I do decide to get one. I believe this kind of scenario plays out a lot when infinity focus is a requirement. I would not like to be limited when this scenario presents itself again.

[Manfred M]

Dennis - rather than trying to do a shot that is technically difficult, try to take a shot that you can do well. That would be far simpler than dragging all kinds of additional gear to the beach when you are on vacation. A beach around mid-day is pretty well mission impossible for photography

I personally find the the built-in camera flash is good enough to trigger an off-camera flash slave, as that is just about the only thing I do with mine. Nicely said, they are almost useless. Even with a high end (read that as fairly pricey) flash you can mount on your camera, if can only produce a limited amount of light. There is only so much power that you can draw out of 4 AA batteries. Taking shots early in the morning or late in the day where the light is more even is probably a good place to start.

[William W]

Bill - Again we are doing a lot of guessing here on how he shot things. You are being generous with the GN; the internal flash on the D5100 is about half of what you calculate (published GN is 43ft @ ISO100), so I don't think the camera's flash has the power to do what he is trying to do. I do think I could manage with my SB900; 111.5ft at ISO100 @ 35mm; 157.5ft at ISO200 @ 35mm (I'm assuming he is shooting with his prime).

Manfred -

I am not guessing about what the OP is doing - I am answering your direct and continuing critique on my posts on this thread.

The GN of the internal Flash has nothing to do with what we are discussing - I am not being generous at all.
I originally commented that, as the OP said the Flash Exposure was two stops under compared to the ambient, then the GN of the Flash he used would be about 80~90ft @ISO100.
The OP's calculation of the underexposure may or may not be correct, I was only ocmmenting on the information provided.

No, you could not use a SB900 on camera in the situation as described by the OP and get the results he described and implied.
If the SB 900 were used in the scenario as described by the OP and if it were on camera then the Flash exposure would be 1 stop under the ambient exposure (GN = 111).
Now that underexposure might be OK for your taste - but it still would be underexposed and that is what the OP was asking about.


***


If we really wish to debate and critique various comments that appear in this thread –
Then referring to post #2 - in my experience shooting quite a deal of Flash Fill in Bright Sun, and as I understand the question:

This is not a tricky shot at all.
The environment is quite controlled - full sun with direct flash fill.
The Subject is in the Foreground.
The foreground is not “BLOWN OUT” – it is underexposed by two stops (underexposed is the opposite of “blown out") . . ? ? ?
The OP mentioned no “rule of thumb” ? ? ?
Using the Histogram is not necessary.
Using any light modifier (such as a shoot through umbrella) will DECREASE the amount of effective FLASH OUTPUT, and the foreground is already UNDER exposed ? ? ?

***

The TWO salient points from the OP’s post are:

 It is a simple DIRECT FLASH FILL shooting scenario.
 As the OP specifically mentions he used manual and full power - the Flash was under power to make the fill to F/16 @ ISO100

WW

[DennisS]

You know - what I think is wierd - is that a simple point and shoot may very well work in this situation since it is easy to get max DOF with wide open aperture due to the small sensor...!!!! Just my 2 cents...

[William W]

n

I have come to believe from all the posts the issue is with the power of the flash.

Yes. Correct.

What would be the minimum equipment I need to make such a photo possible without blowing a lot of dollars. I do not have a separate flash yet but the answer may give me a lead to what I would need/budget when I do decide to get one. I believe this kind of scenario plays out a lot when infinity focus is a requirement. I would not like to be limited when this scenario presents itself again.

When making Flash Fill in Direct Sun - It is all about the power of the flash and the positioning of it.

I re-iterate that in my experienced opinion, this is not a tricky situation nor is it a technically difficult shot, and it is the prerogative of anyone to ask how to achieve it.

It is all just about having the Flash at a Working Distance to the Subject which will allow the Power Range of the Flash to efficiently make a fill light to the level which you require.

The are not any flash modifiers or shoot through umbrellas required.
In fact DIRECT flash is the key because we want as much power as possible.

This is "Fill Flash 101".

And is the very FIRST training technique I use on workshops - "Fill Flash in Direct Sun", because it re-enforces the first principles that the limitations of Flash Fill are governed by the POWER of the Flash and that then determines the Working Distance of the Flash.

This is critical for any Photographer using On Camera Flash Fill in pressure situation (For example a Wedding Photographer) - so many Photographers just do not realize that in Full Sun, for the most powerful on camera hotshoe Flash, the effective maximum WD is only about 8ft max . . . and this exercise shows them "WHY".

And it is important that an amateur Photographer understand these principles if he wishes to make Photos of his family at the beach, for example

You could use the in Camera Flash – if it is GN = 43ft @ ISO100, then for F/16 you would need to be about 3ft from the Subject for the original shooting scenario – and without using a very wide angle lens that would stuff up your DoF.

As I originally described, you could use an Off Camera Cord, (quite cheap for a third party version) and Flash with a GN of about 80~90ft @ ISO100 and your 35mm Lens – you could be at 10ft to take the shot and set up the Flash about 5ft from the Subject. BUT - any Flash with more power, will allow more flexibility, but in any case an Off Camera Cord would be a good idea for any Flash Fill in Bright Sun.

Then all you need to do is understand what the Guide Numbers mean and you then know the (DISTANCE) limits of your flash from Subject for using the Flash as the fill light, at ANY aperture.


WW

[William W]

You know - what I think is wierd - is that a simple point and shoot may very well work in this situation since it is easy to get max DOF with wide open aperture due to the small sensor...!!!! Just my 2 cents...

Yes correct.

But their in Camera Flash is low power and typically means the WD is about 2ft at F/5.6~F7 for Flash as Fill in full sun.

A camera similar to a Powershot P5 IS is actually better, because it has an hotshoe and the functionality of the hotshoe is integrated to EOS ETTL Flash units.

A while ago we used to use two P5 IS at ISO80 with 580's Flash units mounted, for this very similar shooting scenarios - for example for grab shots at Beach Weddings.

WW

[DennisS]

Awesome - I just happen to have a Nikon D5700 that is gathering dust after I got the D5100...!!! It has the hot shoe and also shoots in RAW. I will resurrect that camera now - glad to know I do not have to go shopping again...

[Manfred M]

Sorry Bill - I have re-read the original posting an probably am looking at it in view of my experience am getting too far into the weeds and made some assumptions that I maynot have explained clearly enough. I am certainly not criticizing your answers, and am sorry if you think this is the case,

"This is not a tricky shot at all." - Agreed, with the appropriate equipment. If the flash is underpowered, it can't be done. But, unless you light correctly, either the foreground or background will not be lit properly.

"The environment is quite controlled - full sun with direct flash fill." - I got mislead by the interchangeble use of the word subject and foreground. My initial interpretation was that the background was properly exposed, the subject was not, and the foreground was overexposed. I've certainly seen this before in beach or snow scenes with the subject in the shade. The fill flash (inverse square law at work) on a broad beam from low down illuminated the foreground created a hot spot, the light dropped off by the time it got to the subject in the shadow (too dark), and the background out of the shade looked fine. My answers were based on how I would shoot this particular scenario. As this is not what Dennis meant, so my answer is obviously wrong.

"The OP mentioned no “rule of thumb” ? ? ?" -the "(Sunny 16 rule)" sounds like a rule of thumb to me, from the old "Kodak moment" days.

"Using the Histogram is not necessary." - this was meant as a means of looking how the exposure looked when checking out ones shots in mixed lighting situations. I've seen too many people trying to judge an exposure in the camera's display in bright sunlight. I tend to spend a lot of time looking at my histograms, especially when I am playing with strange lighting just to make sure I get a good light distribution.

"Using any light modifier (such as a shoot through umbrella) will DECREASE the amount of effective FLASH OUTPUT, and the foreground is already UNDER exposed ? ? ? " - Absolutely correct, if you have the light well back of the subject. This is why you go off camera and move the light close to the subject. I will often shoot with my light modifier very close to the subject, just out of range of the camera. That gives me a nice soft light and no harsh shadows. The issue here is the composition in question. Nice close 3/4 shot with the 35 (or the 50 - 200), that would work. If the shot was composed with a tiny figure in with a vast background, no you could not get the light close enough for this to work. Again, just a guess without seeing the image.

Again, my experience for this type of shot is to get the background exposure right and then set the fill light to properly expose the subject that is in shadow, so long as you work at or less than the maximum synch speed of your camera. You really are trying to correctly light two completely separate subjects.

[Colin Southern]

A couple of (potential) "out of the box" work-arounds are:

1. Use a reflector to bounce some direct sun back into the shady areas where the subject is positioned, or

2. Position the subject in full - glaring - squinting sun, but place a diffuser between the sun and the subject. (since it's all natural light you can then easily adjust any disparity between foreground and background zones in post processing).

Either solution can also be used with existing fill flash, and costs only about 1% of what an external flash costs.

I do quite a lot of portraiture in the conditions you describe, but personally I like to keep the aperture open to deliberately throw the background out of focus, and I normally use a diffuser to kill any dappled light, and 4x 600EX-RT flashes (triggered remotely) into a Lightware 4-Square for fill.

[William W]

Manfred –
No apology is necessary.
I did not think that you were criticizing my responses, please note that I wrote -
“I am answering your direct and continuing critique on my posts on this thread.”
Critique and criticism, although from the same root, have vastly differing meanings.

For clarity:
I do not tend to comment on other’s responses to these technical type questions which have apparent and clear cut answers.

The question posed was: “How to capture Max DOF (infinity) and use Fill Flash”
And then in the guts of the dialogue, the OP posted some specifics
i.e. the Aperture used and the shooting distance.

To be frank
Although post #2 gave some description of Flash Fill Techniques, that post made no sense to me at all, as a response to the question posed by the OP – but it would be unlikely that I would ever comment on Post #2 and I did not.

Rather Post #3 simply answers the question asked by the OP.

Post #3 made no effort made to debate or critique Post#2.
Posts #2 and #3 are for the OP and other readers to sort out.

Before I generally would make comment upon other posts in a thread:
The OP would need to ask supplementary questions or for the OP would need to show some misunderstanding or confusion . . .
It is my general writing technique to just post answers to the questions posted and respond to subsequent questions asked.

[For example although Colin is not answering the question as it was originally asked - I wouldn’t comment on the dialogue about using a Reflector or a Diffusing Screen.
It is obvious that Colin’s comments are suggesting to the OP there are other options than using a Flash to get an exposure (close to) F/16 @ 1/100s @ ISO100 that will give a reasonable lighting balance between Background and Subject.]

But I will always most usually respond to direct comments made to me on any thread, IF it is my opinion that tangent conversations will be useful.

And that is why I have responded in detail, to your dialogue directed to me on this thread – because the comments were directed to me and I believed the responses I made would be useful.

***

In light of that explanation we now continue our conversation, because I think it will be useful.
But please note all but the last of my responses are still within the bounds of the question as it was originally presented by the OP:

About the required equipment - is a flash and the Flash (unless a really wide angle lens is used) needs to be off camera – it is that simple. (Reason for being useful:- to reinforce to the OP that this is not rocket science.)

+

In respect of the Flash being in shot or not – that is irrelevant to the question as it was explained by the OP: The OP has an APS-C camera, the widest lens being used is 35mm.
He was shooting at about 10ft – that provides a Full Length shot at Vertical Orientation - which is not a tiny figure with a vast background – it is easy to get a Flash in closer to the Subject and for that composition.
Obviously if the 50 to 200 zoom were used (at 10ft) it would be even easier to get the flash in closer to the Subject.
So in my analysis there is no requirement to see the image at all.
All the facts are there for analysis and to build a sound conclusion.

(Reason for being useful - explaining that no need to provide a photo of wife in swimwear. The technical description of the shooting scenario is adequate.
Moreover, my guess is that the OP has already realized that the Subject was a bit more than two stops underexposed OR the shooting distance was a bit closer than 10ft.
The OP displays responses typical of a technical / mathematical styled mind.
Hence the answer is crafted to best suit that mind.)

+

My comment “using the Histogram is not necessary" was in respect of the question and in the framework of my answer – if one knows the exposure for the background scene and one knows the GN of the Flash and sets the Flash at the correct distance – there is no need for reading Histograms or looking at the back LCD of the camera . . .
Ektachrome Professional Positive Film did not afford these trimmings.
I have no issue with people checking Histograms – just stating it is not necessary in this situation.

(Reason for being useful - to explain to use the tools when necessary, and not out of habit - think about all techniques and decide if they are beneficial, or not)

+

In respect of the “Rule of Thumb” – we might need to disagree on that, as I submit that the F/16 Rule is not any “Rule of Thumb” but is predicated on sound Mathematics and Physics.

The (complete) F/16 Rule – is based upon the fact that the unimpaired light intensity from the Sun is uniform across Planet Earth between the Tropics of Capricorn and Cancer, between the hours of approximately two to three hours after sunrise and two to three hours before sunset.
Therefore, that is to say ANY Scene Lit by the Sun under those conditions will accord an EV = 15, which then requires an exposure of F/16 @ 1/ISOs at ISO – hence the now known term “F/16 Rule”.

If we want to put a mathematical term to this - then an “Axiom” would be close – but certainly it is not a “Rule of Thumb”.

However, there are many exposure “Rules of Thumb” in that aforementioned Kodak Handbook – such as the exposure for “Stage Lights” or the exposure for “Candlelight” . . . etc – but what is now known as the “F/16 Rule” is predicated in Mathematics and Physics.

In the OP’s question: the “Background” was a “scene in bright sunlight” – making the assumption that the location was between the tropics and between the stated hours it is not employing any rule of thumb, that for this scene F/16 @ 1/100s @ ISO100 would be a correct exposure, within ⅓Stop, for that scene.

(Reason for being useful – well, simply it is fact, moreover to reinforce to the OP that his rule, if applied correctly, will work every time.)

***

In regard to the last Para. - This appears as a general comment describing one approach Flash Fill in Sunlight and the response to it is also a general comment as there is one important point to note:

Again, my experience for this type of shot is to get the background exposure right and then set the fill light to properly expose the subject that is in shadow, so long as you work at or less than the maximum synch speed of your camera. You really are trying to correctly light two completely separate subjects.

When Using Flash as Fill in Sunlight: there is NO general necessity to have the Shutter Speed at or less than the Maximum Sync.

Faster than Maximum Camera Sync, can be used (and often is used) with Flash Units capable of High Speed Sync. And this technique in some circumstances gives leverage.

It is important to note that often the use of HSS is to achieve the exact opposite of what the OP is asking to do – i.e. HSS is often used to make the Shutter speed quite fast, such that the Aperture can be large enough to create a very shallow DoF.

(Reason for being useful – because considering that the dialogue having been opened, it would be errant not mention it.)

WW