How to create Max DoF pics especially for Portrait

[DeKa77]

Thank Richard.
I really confuse about DOF and hyperfocal distance. But I wonder where is the nearest distance for focussing object at 3m if we use lenses 50mm and F/11 .

Max DoF ???

[tonyjr]

Colin Southern - Thanks for all the advice — some of my questions are probably pretty dumb - but there are a lot of people that know everything and are afraid of asking or others that did not think to ask . [ to me the only dumb question is one not asks — [ except when I ask the wife " why " ]
You think that looks strange , some of my shots - I cannot figure out where I was focusing or why I took the shot .
Those shots I figure the wicked witch of the north did it . [ Once I told her that her sister was nicer and prettier ]
I get emails with upside down question marks , exclamation points - side ways " S " over letter .
edited - sorry , I did not see the next page .
One of my problems is not really the HFD - it is more the bokeh thing . I want DOF not bokeh .
The picture above of lady - I know most of the problem is light and F 11 , but I want all the grass and leaves / plants in focus .
Here I would have tried a F 5.6 or F 8 . A CPL / lower ISO and or a faster shutter speed . I think looking at the histogram would have shown that .
Please - let me know if I am wrong [ again ]

[Dave Humphries]

Thank Richard.
I really confuse about DOF and hyperfocal distance. But I wonder where is the nearest distance for focussing object at 3m if we use lenses 50mm and F/11 .

Max DoF ???

Hi DeKa,

We need to know which camera body you are using to answer this one(?)

You keep saying "Max DoF", an odd term - photography is a compromise, if we don't compromise then achieving "Maximum DoF" is as easy as 1, 2, 3, 4;
1) stop down to the narrowest aperture the lens will do (the highest f/number - typically f/16, f/22, maybe even f/32 on an old lens)
2) get as far away from subject as possible (increase shooting distance to subject)
3) use as wide an angle lens as you can; e.g. lowest number focal length in mm
4) use a camera with a small sensor; e.g. not FF, but a P&S or a bridge camera
but;
a) the subject is likely to be very small in the frame (because of wide angle and distance), plus
b) it may well be blurred by camera shake due to a slow shutter speed (because of high f number), and
c) the image may be noisy (due to the use of a high iso and/or small sensor to prevent blur)

I hope those general principles help you work out how these factors interact as a "rule of thumb", rather than get bogged down in tables.

Cheers,

[Dave Humphries]

One of my problems is not really the HFD - it is more the bokeh thing . I want DOF not bokeh .
The picture above of lady - I know most of the problem is light and F 11 , but I want all the grass and leaves / plants in focus .

I am unsure why you want all the background sharp - to distract from the portrait subject - this seems the opposite to what most people strive for - which at least gives you a unique selling point I suppose!

Here I would have tried a F 5.6 or F 8 . A CPL / lower ISO and or a faster shutter speed . I think looking at the histogram would have shown that .
Please - let me know if I am wrong [ again ]

Not sure what you are trying to fix with all these different suggestions Tony; the narrow DoF issue or the over exposure?

The histogram would have shown the overall image was over exposing - correct on this one.

A CPL and/or a lower iso and/or faster shutter speed would have resulted in less over exposure (if shooting Manual) - correct on this one.
However, none of these would get more help DoF.

f/5.6 or f/8, compared to the suggested f/11 would result in a brighter image (if shooting Manual) and less DoF - so incorrect on this one.

I hope I haven't misunderstood what you were trying to say and that the above helps clarify things.

Cheers,

[tonyjr]

" I am unsure why you want all the background sharp — to distract from the portrait subject — this seems the opposite to what most people strive for — which at least gives you a unique selling point I suppose! "
I crop a lot — aunt Susie in background that no one got a shot of . [ This happened about 5 years ago — brother-in-laws wife's mother was at a wedding and I caught her in back of bride smiling . She had a massive heart attach a week later . No one cared the shot was not that sharp — she did not smile that much ] I take a lot of shots of flowers and want the whole flower and maybe branch / leaves in focus .

" I am unsure why you want all the background sharp — to distract from the portrait subject — this seems the opposite to what most people strive for — which at least gives you a unique selling point I suppose! " It is a hobby - I don't sell . I have found I get sharper pictures at F 5.6 OR F 8 . At f 4 less DOF and at F 11 , things start to blur and I get color shifts sometimes - I think . This was on my 28-135 and the 35-350 . I have not changed / checked when using the 17-55 or 70-200 mk II - maybe they would be OK . They are both 2.8 and have IS . To me when things start to be unsharp — they go form DOF to bokeh - I know that is not the definition of bokeh .
Generally , I set the 10-22 at F 8 - ISO 100 and raise ISO till I get in the 1/125 range .

[Nomadr]

just to pick up on a point that Richard made, quite often your subject wont appear sharp in the viewfinder until you actually press the depth of field preview button to see what the shot will actually look like,cheers martyn

[tonyjr]

I wish there was a way to set up burst for f 4 , 5.6 and 8 . [ mine only allows + , 0 , - in burst for light ]
I wonder how many people have the time or even use the DOF button ?
Right now , I have to set up C 1 , C2 and C 3 to f 4 , 5.6 and f 8 before taking posed shots . [ yes the ISO is hard to figure out till I get there . ]
I really like candid shots but it is hard with people and forget about butterflies , bugs - sometimes it works on flowers .
I know my skills as a photographer suck - but a crapy shot is better than no shot .

[Colin Southern]

I wish there was a way to set up burst for f4, 5.6 and 8 .[mine only allows +, 0, - in burst for light]

There is - just use Shutter Priority (Tv mode).

[DeKa77]

Hi,
Thank Dave Humphries, I have my D90 for that pic.
Thank Tonyjr, I would like to have the same as you - the background also sharp, and we are trying apply FlashTech for this purpose.
This was shot at midday, so you can see the sunlight on the model.



D90 @ 1/125s @ F/11 @ 85mm ISO 200 @ FlashTech - this is the main fill flash.

FYI : In FlashTech, you can get nearest the subject depending on the focal length of your lenses and the light is in your hand. Sorry, my English is not good for expressing my thought and tech. I will have pics for explaining this FlashTech.

[tonyjr]

Colin Southern -
So If I shoot in TV - how would I set camera up in burst - I will read books [ I have 4 different ones on 7 D ] on burst again .
To be honest , I think I have it set to just fire straight shots right now . I have to change something to get the -2 , 0 , +2 shots and don't do that often .
OK , thanks after re reading about AEB , I remembered they said not to use TV for HDR . I was reading and looking for different info at that time . pages 94 and 95 in Bushes 7 D book . Thanks
DeKa77 -
I will look up flashtech when I leave here . I like the DOF on the posted shot .
My fill flash is just the popup on 7 D . I went looking for flashtech , all I could find was about lights for cars , what company makes that software ?

[Colin Southern]

Colin Southern -
So If I shoot in TV - how would I set camera up in burst

Hi Roy,

It shouldn't be any different to Av mode, with the exception that the camera will vary the aperture instead of the shutterspeed.

Can see why bracketing should be necessary though ...

[jcuknz]

For 'maxDoF' you most definitely do not shoot in TV but in AV or Manual. In TV you pick the shutter speed and leave the aperture, which controls DoF, to the camera. So you are shooting yourself in the foot
In AV you pick a small aperture for max DoF and observe what shutter speed the camera picks. If this is too slow for hand holding then you adjust the ISO upwards until you get a satisfactory shutter speed. Hopefully you have image stabilised lenses.
Shutter speed should be the reciprocal of the actual focal length [Angle of view equivalent]. So that 50mm lens giving an 80mm AoV needs at least a 1/80 shutter speed assuming you are taking the shot properly and carefully. OIS or VR gives you a but of leeway but I don't use it unless I have to.

Don't be too worried that many people claim to want to work with MinDoF, yet when they are doing actual work they tell us they work at f/5.6 or f/8 which is much more likely to produce consistent usefull results for a client [ which is what I did ] rather than the hit or miss of working at f/1.4, particularly if you are using AF.

[tonyjr]

Colin Southern -- jcuknz
Thanks - a whole bunch - I generally shoot at F 5.6 or F 8 .
I read the book [ buschs on 7 D with bracketing ] and found it . By bracketing in F 5.6 or F 8 , I will cover [ at F 5.6 ] F 4 , 5.6 , and 8 or at F 8 , I will cover F 5.6 , 8 and 11 . I know I have to watch the ISO / light to shutter speed up . I could probably go 2 stops in bracketing but while I really like both the 2.8's I have , I only use F 2.8 in maybe 5 shots in a 100 .
I have taken too many shots that had to be adjusted [ exposure ] in CS 3 and CS 4 . Going up or down the DOF stay the same thou .
Not sure if picture uploaded or not . [ hard to figure out how to post shots ] If it did post , it would be an example of the DOF I want . F 8 , about 3 feet with fill light [ pop up flash . ]
Colin Southern has helped me a lot with answers to making a time lapse of the flower on this type plant . This one while in a pot is about 6 feet to bud and below it is the flower I want a time lapse of . The flower is about 14 inches long .
I will submit and hope shot posts , if not , I will try to figure out why not .
O K . I posted and got this below post - « Under-Exposure Issue going to try to fix
maybe the picture will post now




Sorry , I have not figured it out yet - I joined the tiny pics thing - did not work .
I will post a help needed on / in contact us .

[tonyjr]

looks like I got it . Now to figure out how to get exif data - probably cut and paste ?
hope this is enough

File name: F8 FILL BUD 6-9.JPG
File size: 6999570 bytes (5184x3456, 3.1bpp, 8x)
EXIF Summary: 1/250s f/8.0 ISO200 18mm

Camera-Specific Properties:

Equipment Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS 7D
Lens Size: 17.00 - 55.00 mm
Firmware Version: Firmware Version 1.2.2
Serial Number: 1370810041
The shot was reduced in size in preview and I did use the pop up flash on it . The shot was taken Saturday the 9th .
I will try to get out there again to day and snap another shot or 2 for reference on the time till flower is in the shape you see below bud .
If you read my other posts on my time lapse project , you know I had a total knee replacement 2 months ago - and pain pills are kicking in now .
Colin Southern - has been a great help with advise and suggestions - give credit where credit is due .

[anita]

Setting and Locking the Lens at the Hyperfocal Distance, or at any particular Distance for Zone Focussing, does NOT necessarily mean that the Photographer uses the Distance Scales on the Lens.

Again, pls do not be upset on me. Let's cut it off in simple pieces. The lens has a distance scale. I look at it and see a gradation(both in feet as meters). Until now everything is ok. I don't know what this distance scale does?!?! I've observed that when a aim the focus on a subject and the camera/lens achieve focus, the indicator on distance scale goes to a number. I also observe that rotating the wheel manually also moves the indicator on distance scale.
1 Question! Is there a difference between manual rotation or automatic rotation?
2 Question! What is this distance scale about?

Especially for modern Lenses and DLSR cameras and also especially for Zoom Lenses, using the Distance Scale on the Lens is quite difficult and also not accurate: because, firstly the numerals on the scale have a thickness and secondly the compass of the focus turret is usually quite small and as such it is very difficult to ascertain from the Distance Scale where any distance exactly lays, as it approaches ∞. Also, perculiar to Zoom Lenses - very few keep Focus throughout the zoom range.

3 Question! Why would Canon(and all engineers) put a functionality in a LENS that doesn't work? Are u telling me that i should only trust this automate mode regarding distance scale?

A good methodology for setting the lens at any exact focus distance:
Is to switch the lens to Manual Focus and to use Manual Focus with Conformation and lock focus on a contrast edge at the pre determined distance.

4 Question! If you are referring at keeping the finger on the half pressed shutter and rotating manually the focus ring until the confirmation led light i keep wondering what is the difference between this technique and AF?

A good method for Locking the lens at that predetermined distance:
Is to use a small piece of GAF tape on the Focus Turret, locking it to the Lens Barrel: alternatively on some Lenses the Lens Hood can be reverse mounted such that the Focus Turret cannot be easily accessed or bumped.

Sincerely i do not understand what are u talking about. Maybe it's my English.
This i pass, i sincerely refuse to understand why i should place a cello tape over an 1000 euro lens, if it doesn't function maybe they should not put it there. Sorry .

For Zone Focussing:
AFTER using the manual focussing technique described above, a good method is to use clear Cellotape as an overlay on the Focus Turret Window and use Back Market pen to make the necessary alignment marks where an easily discernible numeral should position.

For example, below: this 35mm Lens is set with three different Zone Focus Ranges. All that is required is to align the white numeral “1” (which is easily seen), directly under one of the three black lines depending upon which Zone Focus required.

This part is also BLANK FOR ME.

WW

You are so nice guys, but please always keep in mind that a thing after you understand it it seems so simple. For beginners it is difficult to understand. We are not here to test your Knowledge! You are good! If you can help us with simple explanation would be tremendous.

Wish all a good day.

Thanks a lot.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Ana,

Firstly, did you see my answer to you above?

~ The lens has a distance scale. I look at it and see a gradation(both in feet as meters). Until now everything is ok. I don't know what this distance scale does?!?! I've observed that when a aim the focus on a subject and the camera/lens achieve focus, the indicator on distance scale goes to a number. I also observe that rotating the wheel manually also moves the indicator on distance scale.
1 Question! Is there a difference between manual rotation or automatic rotation?
2 Question! What is this distance scale about?

1. Well, no, not really.
If you have a car; think of it as getting to say 30mph (or 50kph) by either;
a) manually using the accelerator/throttle (and reading speedometer), or
b) setting the speed on the cruise control
- if you do the latter, the speedometer still shows your speed.
2. It is simply reassurance that you're in the right ball park (for distance)

3 Question! Why would Canon (and all engineers) put a functionality in a LENS that doesn't work? Are u telling me that i should only trust this automatic mode regarding distance scale?

We are saying that automatic focus on something that is 6 feet away is likely to be more accurate than setting 6 feet/2m on the scale, yes.
They put it there, on most lenses, because customers feel uneasy about buying a lens without a distance scale at all - and Nikon do make at least one like that!

4 Question! If you are referring at keeping the finger on the half pressed shutter and rotating manually the focus ring until the confirmation led light i keep wondering what is the difference between this technique and AF?

Not a lot really, as you say, if you rely on the electronics to indicate when something is in focus, you might as well let it do the focus for you
That said, not all lens will focus on all cameras, so sometimes you may need to do it manually.

Sincerely i do not understand what are u talking about. Maybe it's my English.
This i pass, i sincerely refuse to understand why i should place a cello tape over an 1000 euro lens, if it doesn't function maybe they should not put it there. Sorry .

That's your choice, Bill was just suggesting a method he is happy to use, not saying you have to

This part is also BLANK FOR ME.

It's more on the above really, so if you're not doing that, don't worry.

You are so nice guys, but please always keep in mind that a thing after you understand it it seems so simple. For beginners it is difficult to understand. We are not here to test your Knowledge! You are good! If you can help us with simple explanation would be tremendous.

We try, sometimes it is difficult to judge how much a beginner knows.

I hope this helps clarify a few things.

All the best,

[anita]

Hi Ana,

Firstly, did you see my answer to you above?

Well, now i realize it. I did this test in past. Set the camera on a wall, trigger it on self-timer 2secs. Set it at f/11 and 24mm. Searched the dof table. It said smith like 1.71m. I've positioned the indicator at 2m and made several photos from 2m until 0.1m or smth like that(rotating manually the focus ring). After that on post processing i didn't succeed in obtaining 1.71 even if i rotated very very smooth. or 1.5m or 1.9m. . So, the camera was stable! I've tried on AF to approximate, because it's difficult to obtain an object at 1.71m(let's assume 1,71m was the right HFD). The same result. In the weekend i will try to test this theory again. I did the test from macro to infinity. .

1. Well, no, not really.
If you have a car; think of it as getting to say 30mph (or 50kph) by either;
a) manually using the accelerator/throttle (and reading speedometer), or
b) setting the speed on the cruise control
- if you do the latter, the speedometer still shows your speed.
2. It is simply reassurance that you're in the right ball park (for distance)

I was asking to be sure, that was what i thought either. Well, until now, the practice says something else(until the remake)

We are saying that automatic focus on something that is 6 feet away is likely to be more accurate than setting 6 feet/2m on the scale, yes.
They put it there, on most lenses, because customers feel uneasy about buying a lens without a distance scale at all - and Nikon do make at least one like that!

Sincerely, i'm not so convinced. I've heard people saying that the machine is better than human. I'd like to believe that's not true. I'm not sure at all which version is right. Allow me to have a doubt.

That's your choice, Bill was just suggesting a method he is happy to use, not saying you have to

Bill it's well intended, but i said sincerely that's difficult for me to understand what it's exactly saying. I've read the post multiple times.

We try, sometimes it is difficult to judge how much a beginner knows.
I hope this helps clarify a few things.

That is that i most appreciate at you all. You are here to "Serve&Protect" discreetly. I like that you are not looking for arguing for insignificant details. I assure you that if you have patience to explain like you're taking to a 13 years old nobody will be mad on you. Thank you for rearranging the text, by the way.

Good night.

[tonyjr]

If you put the lens in manual , about all you will get is what the camera thinks the ISO - etc should be . The AF does not work and I think the IS still does .
As far as not understanding , most people learn quite a bit by just trying to figure out how to word question . When some one else tries to explain it , it gets clearer by using or changing words for answer .