Canon 5D vs 40D vs 450D (Rebel XSi)

[caonex]

I have been using point and shoot cameras for quite a while now. I am looking to upgrade to the best DSLR for venturing into a side business of photography sort of like Sean T. McHugh. I would like to be able to do wide and narrow angle shots. Also, I would love night photography with long exposures. While I am aware that my preferences indicated above have to do with Lenses, I am trying to consider the best camera to attach the lenses available to and bundles, if you will.

I definitively would like 14 bit color conversion which pretty much leaves the XSI and 40D as my primary choices. I am going canon because I have always used Canon and never had a problem. Also, they have a great range of lenses. I have noticed that Newegg has some great deals for both of this camera’s. At the time I wrote this, the 40D is sold for $1,129.99. What particularly attracts me to the 40D is that it seems the most professional of non-professional models. It comes with a pentraprism while the others come with a pentamirror. Also, the 40D is able to take pictures at a rate of 6fps. With my point and shoot I liked taking multiple consecutive action shots which led me to buy a really fast card.

The 40D comes with the EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Zoom lens which attracts me for not being limited to the APS-C type sensors and being reusable when I decide to upgrade later on after I have mastered the camera. The XSI, on the other hand, comes with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Lens which is restricted to the cropped sensors. The XSI is sold for $824.99. If I was to buy the XSI body only and add on the same lenses that the 40D offers, the cost would end up being the same as the 40D combo which does not seem good, the 40D being a better camera. I also like to take shots of wild life and the lens coming with the 40D is closer to what I would need.

Please feel free to give me suggestions, as I am no expert, and I am willing to do the best for my money. I am trying to keep my budget around $1000, initially was $800. I know this does not allow me to get a couple of lenses, but I am looking to start with the best for what I like to do. I welcome all advices. If I am wrong, please correct me. Any ideas you may have about other combinations of lenses and camera's I would appreciate.

Thank you all in advance.

[caonex]

Well, Well. Now, I see things getting even more complicated as far a picking the best camera. I noticed that PhotoDynasty.com sells pretty good bundles with the 50D for as low as $1,199.00 which includes 28-70mm f/2.8-4 & 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 Macro Lens + Extras. Another offer includes 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 & Canon 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 Lens + Extras for $1,229.00.

This is much cheaper than I had anticipated for the 50D. I might not come with lenses such as those in Thread #2, but they are probably not that bad especially bundled with 50D. What does everybody think? I am really confused and could use some help. Thanks again!

[caonex]

First, I want to apologize to the moderators of the forum because I posted earlier today link to see the actual 50D deals on the evil website I mentioned above. I was not aware at the time that it was against the rules, I was just doing it to show everybody what I thought was a great deal, share or what have you.

It seems to be turning out that they are fake, so I would like to bring this up to everybody´s attention so that nobody is misled, just as I was.

I really thought that I could be getting a really good deal. However, I found a couple of posts around the web saying that they are a scam and that they go by different names so there could be other websites.

Please be careful.

If you have any ideas of any other fraudulent websites, please post it here so that we can all be aware of what we need to steer away from.

Thanks, and sorry if I contributed to misleading some of you.

[McQ]

Hi caonex. Yes, you have to be very careful with camera purchases. There are a number of bait and switch companies that will post a very low price, but not process your order when made (or delay it for months) until they can reach you on the phone. Once they call you, it will become very apparent that they will not process your order unless you bundle it with several other very pricey accessories. To save yourself a lot of hassle make sure to check consumer ratings, pricegrabber ratings, etc. It's not worth going with one of these vendors for a little savings...you'll end up paying a lot more in the long run in wasted time, quality of equipment and total cost of purchase.

As far as cameras, both the Canon 40D and XSi are great models. I think the bigger consideration should be the choice of lens(es). To that end, save a bit on the XSi and put it towards a better (or another) lens. There will always be new camera models, but a good lens will stand the test of time. Get something at least as wide as 17 or 18 mm since you are using a cropped sensor. The 17-85 and 18-55 mm lenses are small and versatile models. You might want to pair this with a 70-200 f/4L (extremely high quality but really needs a tripod) or 70-300 mm.

[caonex]

Thanks McQ for your reply.

I guess you left out the 5D because of my starting budget and having to start my collection of lenses, right? So based on your response on the thread (Full Frame / Canon 5D Photos More 3D?), I understood that since the full frame (5D) does not magnify the output of the Modulation Transfer Function (MTF) it could contribute to that subtle extra touch. In other words, the more zooming, the less natural and attractive? Could have the lenses that person was using, have prevented the pictures from having the extra factor, even though they were excellent for that camera? Perhaps, the pictures that person was looking at were shot with better lenses?

I must say that I am really inspired by your low light pictures so I really know I will be doing a lot of this. I have always liked night photography, but until I saw your stuff, I did not realize how much better it could be with better equipment. Also, I would like to do seldom action shots, probably for baseball, basketball and football. Having said these things, you do not think the XSI would be limiting me? It offers 3.5 fps vs 6.5. Its main difference is the resulting cropped image, but the reaction to the light and the image quality should be subtly different, mainly depending on the choice of lenses, right? This is why you are suggesting initially just a cheaper camera, but save the extra for a better lens. So like if I have a 5D with a not so good lens and a XSI with a really good lens such as the ones you have, the XSI should produce a better image closer to those you have shot. Also, you suggest XSI, perhaps, because of the extra amount of pixels for light capturing and image quality?

I am asking so many questions because I have heard of a couple of people that bought cheaper models at first and ended up reaching up the limitations rather quickly, causing them to upgrade not so long after perhaps costing them a few bucks rather then just waiting and saving a little longer for that camera with less limitations and better features? So this is what I am trying not to do.

About the lenses, you would always advise to get the EF mount to fit all camera's and sensors? And they should produce, according to my understanding, the same good quality image is mainly the weight and size factor, which I do not mind. Is this correct? Or there are exceptions when you perhaps could say get an EF-s instead of a EF?

[McQ]

Thanks for the kind words and glad you have liked some of the photos on this site.

I guess you left out the 5D because of my starting budget and having to start my collection of lenses, right? So based on your response on thread 2 (Full Frame / Canon 5D Photos More 3D?), I understood that since the full frame (5D) does not magnify the output of the Modulation Transfer Function (MTF) it could contribute to that subtle extra touch.

The 5D was left out just because of the budget constraints you had mentioned. The choice between full frame and a cropped digital camera sensor is a difficult one, and will impact your lens collection in the long term. There's advantages and disadvantages to each. If you mainly want to do night photography you will probably want the cropped sensor because it will allow shorter exposure times at a given ISO setting and depth of field. You might also like the cropped sensor because of the extra magnification it will give you with the telephoto lenses (or greatly reduced size/weight for a given amount of magnification).

Ultimately, being able to purchase better lenses (because of the reduced camera cost) will give you far more punch than any perceived difference between a full frame and cropped sensor.

So like if I have a 5D with a not so good lens and a XSI with a really good lens such as the ones you have, the XSI should produce a better image closer to those you have shot.

Exactly.

I am asking so many questions because I have heard of a couple of people that bought cheaper models at first and ended up reaching up the limitations rather quickly, causing them to upgrade not so long after perhaps costing them a few bucks rather then just waiting and saving a little longer for that camera with less limitations and better features? So this is what I am trying not to do.

It's a tough decision, but what I can say is that the time spent actually using the camera (when you would otherwise be saving up for the more expensive model) will certainly be well spent. This added experience will likely make a bigger impact on the quality and strength of your photos than simply a fancier camera model. I've personally owned what I could afford at all times...starting with the Canon G3, then 300D, then 10D, then 20D and then the 5D. That's perhaps too many models, but you get the idea. The time spent with the G3 and 300D were very well spent.

About the lenses, you would always advise to get the EF mount to fit all camera's and sensors? And they should produce, according to my understanding, the same good quality image is mainly the weight and size factor, which I do not mind. Is this correct? Or there are exceptions when you perhaps could say get an EF-s instead of a EF?

There's some very high quality EF-S lenses out right now. The 10-22 mm EF-S produced extremely good results on my 20D when compared side by side to the same photo on the 5D with the 17-40 mm f/4L. The main difference is build quality and size, as you say.

The choice of EF versus EF-S is tough because it depends upon a lot of factors. There are certainly situations where I would opt for an EF-S lens regardless. For example, if Canon had a 400 mm f/5.6 IS lens for the EF-S, I would want that in a heartbeat. Alternatively, if I wanted really wide angle there would be no option but the 10-22 mm EF-S lens when using a cropped sensor.

[caonex]

There's some very high quality EF-S lenses out right now. The 10-22 mm EF-S produced extremely good results on my 20D when compared side by side to the same photo on the 5D with the 17-40 mm f/4L. The main difference is build quality and size, as you say.

The choice of EF versus EF-S is tough because it depends upon a lot of factors. There are certainly situations where I would opt for an EF-S lens regardless. For example, if Canon had a 400 mm f/5.6 IS lens for the EF-S, I would want that in a heartbeat. Alternatively, if I wanted really wide angle there would be no option but the 10-22 mm EF-S lens when using a cropped sensor.

I understand that small sensor lenses such as EF-S with variable focal lengths tend to produce vignetting at the widest focal length in non-cropped sensors. So you would opt for EF-S perhaps because of their quality and regardless of their vignetting effect on the resulting image? For the 400 mm f/5.6 IS lens for the EF-S, wouldn't that cause vignetting? Is it so little that you can just crop it out? Or leave it in?

[McQ]

Vignetting is a minor problem in the scheme of lens quality issues. It can be corrected for with only a slight increase in noise in the corners as a result. I would not really worry about it too much. The things to be concerned about are softness, focus issues and chromatic aberrations, amongst others.

[jusa]

I settled with Canon 40D due to more attractive price/performance ratio than the 5D. The package was bought from Photo Dynasty. Here is the story:

On 6/21/08, I selected a package with 40D + Canon 28-105mm/f3.5-4.5 + Canon 70-300/f4.0-5.6. This package was listed at $729 on their web site. A 4G CF card come with the package as well. An email was sent from Photo Dynasty to "confirm" my order. I noticed the shipping address has a typo and called back. The rep answering the phone said to me that I need to get the battery and the charger, at $199 and $120, respectively. They are expensive because "made by Canon" and the battery holds 5 hours of charge. I OK'ed the deal.

Then, he told me the lenses will be discontinued by Canon because of faulty design. If I buy a super high speed 4G CF card at $173, he would give me a different set of Sigma lenses which are specifically designed for the cropped frame body like the 40D. I OK'ed. In addition, I was charged 8.9% of "insurance".

On 6/22, I called back to change the lens to Sigma 24-70/f2.8 and Sigma 70-300/f4.0-5.6. (On the web site, this package is $1099.) But I'd drop the CF card. The rep would not let me drop the CF card. Saying canceling the previous order will be charged 15 - 20% of penalty. I was unhappy but OK if I can get a "super high speed" CF card to go with the 6.5 fps of 40D.

On 6/23, I found out the CF card was a rip off and called back to "complain". A different rep offered a 3 years of extended warranty for the lenses. I was unhappy but accepted.

On 6/25, I called to find out the status of my order. I was transferred from person to person then disconnected. Three times the same story. (Every time I call, I spent at least 15 - 20 minutes.)

On 6/27, the package arrived. The battery charger was missing. On the box, it says "camera made in Japan, charger made in China". I called again. The customer service rep said the charger should have come with the camera. I may have to talk to Cannon. I said I was charged $120 for the charger. He then offered to ship a non-Canon "rapid charger" but it will arrive on July 1 because of the weekend.

That's all, folks. After spending $1610. I am mad and will be mad for the rest of my life. Not because Photo Dynasty's reps are doing their FINE job but because I am so DUMB!!!

Any one can tell me what I can do, besides trying to kill myself?

[kevinf]

Any one can tell me what I can do, besides trying to kill myself?

Stick to buying from reputable dealers like B&H instead of trying to find the lowest possible price out there. Normal retail for the kit you posted is $1900... they were never going to sell it to you for $729. Charge everything back, file a fraud complaint with the BBB and the State Attorney General, also to your Credit Card company so they can investigate and pull Photo Dynasty's merchant agreement.

[rpcrowe]

Well, Well. Now, I see things getting even more complicated as far a picking the best camera. I noticed that PhotoDynasty.com sells pretty good bundles with the 50D for as low as $1,199.00 which includes 28-70mm f/2.8-4 & 70-300mm f/4.0-5.6 Macro Lens + Extras. Another offer includes 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 & Canon 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 Lens + Extras for $1,229.00.

This is much cheaper than I had anticipated for the 50D. I might not come with lenses such as those in Thread #2, but they are probably not that bad especially bundled with 50D. What does everybody think? I am really confused and could use some help. Thanks again!

I am assuming that you are talking about the 40D camera, not a 50D.

I would strongly urge you NOT TO BUY PACKAGED KITS. The 40D is a fabulous camera but, if you saddle it down with mediocre glass, you will not achieve the best results.

The ABSOLUTE BEST COMBINATION of 40D and lens is with the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS. This is IMO the premier lens for 1.6x cameras. It is also one of the three most expensive mid-range zooms available (the 24-70mm f/2.8L and 24-105mm f/4L are the other two but, they are at their best on a full-frame camera). A lower priced option is the Tamron 17-55mm f/2.8 which is one heck of a lens. Either of these two lenses would be a good choice on a 40D.

The 18-55mm IS and 55-250mm IS lenses are a BAD CHOICE for the 40D. You are buying a great camera but, with those two lenses, you will never be able to realize the full capabilities of the 40D. It is like buying a top-line automobile and then fitting it with the cheapest tires you can buy. This will be O.K. to drive back and forth to the market but, the full potential of the car will never be realized.

As far as bait-and-switch sales; this is an unfortunate part of the photo equipment buying jungle. There are several on-line retailers who are very reputable and reliable. I have purchased cameras and lenses from Adorama, B&H and 17th Street Camera with no problems at all. The bait-and-switch prices seem to be better - but you will never get the equipment at the stated price.

[caonex]

I am assuming that you are talking about the 40D camera, not a 50D.

I apologize for I had not realized that I said 50D instead of 5D. Initially, I was just comparing 40D and XSI and when I saw that misleading website, I started to incorporate the 5D, not the 50D as I mistakenly said.

The 18-55mm IS and 55-250mm IS lenses are a BAD CHOICE for the 40D. You are buying a great camera but, with those two lenses, you will never be able to realize the full capabilities of the 40D. It is like buying a top-line automobile and then fitting it with the cheapest tires you can buy. This will be O.K. to drive back and forth to the market but, the full potential of the car will never be realized.

A legitimate 40D kit I have seen does not come with the 18-55mm, it comes with the EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Zoom instead. It is not the best either, I am sure and I have heard is more of an all-around lenses rather than specific for certain photography. However, I have come to the realization that it is best to get two lenses such as standard and telephoto (over 200mm) even though I would also love to get a very wide like the 10-22mm.

The ABSOLUTE BEST COMBINATION of 40D and lens is with the Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS. This is IMO the premier lens for 1.6x cameras. It is also one of the three most expensive mid-range zooms available (the 24-70mm f/2.8L and 24-105mm f/4L are the other two but, they are at their best on a full-frame camera). A lower priced option is the Tamron 17-55mm f/2.8 which is one heck of a lens. Either of these two lenses would be a good choice on a 40D.

I would very much love to buy pretty good lenses with very larger apertures, but my starting budget is the limit. I could pretty much save up, but like McQ suggested the more I end up waiting and saving for the closest to best lenses, the more time I could waste just waiting rather than improving my skills.

Initially my budget was aimed at $1000, but I have quickly come to realization that to buy a combination of telephoto zoom and standard lenses, I could not go below $1200 - $1400; even choosing something like the XTI with an 18-55mm kit as part of the combo, leaving me only with having to buy the telephoto around $570. Taking into consideration what McQ said above, it might be best for me to just get something even cheaper like XTI than those in the title of this post just to be able to afford a bit better lenses

I am just dying to get my hands on a real camera. I have never shot an SLR, but always digital point and shoots and have come to understand, perhaps, very well the limitations I have been facing. I have managed to get some shots people seem to appreciate, but I know from reading this forum and observing other experts like you closely, that I can do way way better with a little better equipment.

Thanks for your reply, very kind of you.

[jusa]

Many thanks to Keivnf for your comments. I should contact BBB for the minimum. Hope some actions will be taken by BBB so that no future customers got ripped off like this. In other reviews on website (www.resellerratings.com), 21 out of 22 reviews are "very dissatisfied". The only one positive may be written by the employee of Photo Dynasty. One review writer said he/she contacted BBB and was told there have been 1008 complains against this company. Question is why are they still in business.

Over all my price is still not the most expensive in the market. But I may have received an open item or a returned unit because not only the battery charger is missing, so is the warranty/registration card(s). I am quite positive the lenses are new.

I tried the 40D camera and do like a lot of features which my old Oly E300 does not have. The images, though, are not as sharp as I expected. Don't know it's due to the lens (Sigma 24-70/f2.8 EX DG), the camera itself, or simply I am not familiar with the operation of the camera. Will take more to verify now that I finally have a battery charger shipped to me today.

[rpcrowe]

You might consider a refurbished 30D ($640 free shipping from ADORAMA) and pair this with the fine 17-50mm Tamron at $419. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING GOING f/f IN THE FUTURE.

Then eventually consider pairing this up with the 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS lens.

[clark long]

I just bought a 40D and didn't look back. Best bang for the buck and very easy to use. Lots of functons and all my old EF lenses from the old EOS 620 work. The price was right from Adorama and they said and did what they said. It was on my front porch in 5 days.

I looked hard at the XSI and the 5D.

5D, price got in the way.
XSI, functons got in the way.

You WILL get the 40D and think you scored a homer.

Go for it my friend and tell me about it later.

Clark

[spiritflare]

That's all, folks. After spending $1610. I am mad and will be mad for the rest of my life. Not because Photo Dynasty's reps are doing their FINE job but because I am so DUMB!!!

Any one can tell me what I can do, besides trying to kill myself?

Sorry this happened to you "bait & switch" scheme.


Easy:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/buy.htm

or check

http://www.resellerratings.com/

BEFORE you buy the camera.

[rc53]

Sorry this happened to you "bait & switch" scheme.

Sorry also to hear of this. Alas, scams such as this seem to be remarkably common in US; you see a lot of posts in other places about such antics. The sites mentioned by spiritflare seem a good place to visit before odering -- but beware, some sites seem to close only to open under another name a day or so later.

I imagine such antics would be illegal in most of Europe.

Regards

Bertie

[mrpenton]

I shoot studio portraits with a 5d and wedding and location portraits with a 40D. I use a custom white balance on both cameras with an expo disc and both cameras have similar color characteristics.

For my type of portrait work and volume, mega pixels are the least of my concerns. I like the 40D for my weddings because of its LARGE LCD. I mean huge! The pop up flash has probably never even been opened, but I like that it is there just in case the poop hits the fan at the worst moment. I can strip the camera of its bracket, speedlite and radio slaves and just shoot with the camera, again just in case one of the above accessories leaves me I can go into survival mode.