At what price to you give up loyalty to your local dealer?

[loosecanon]

On the other hand I have just had to order some canon lens hoods - yes expensive averaging £40 each. No internet supplier seems to offer any discount, but my local camera shop tells me the rrp and then discounts. They know me, know I like discount, but also know they will always be asked if they can supply.

[Colin Southern]

My basic question - which I haven't really found an answer for yet - is "why is there any presumption that local dealers should be given 'loyalty' in the first place?"

In any system where transactions occur only when the perceived value to me of what I'm receiving is equal to or greater than the value they're asking from me, why should I pay more to a local dealer unless there is greater perceived value to me in doing so? And surely in doing so, are we then guilty of propping up (ie subsidising) a business that perhaps needs to be replaced with a mechanism that needs to offer more value? Are we really doing the world a dis-service by delaying change to something that offers better value?

[Black Pearl]

But where do you draw the line?

You were lucky enough to know that the 1Dx was going to be everything you wanted from a camera and you didn't need to see it first - I get that, it does happen. You didn't need to handle it or to feel the weight, its a big canon and you know what they are like from experience.

How about a TV?
You can read reviews but at the end of the day would you buy without ever having seen the picture for yourself? Possibly I don't know.
What about a bit of Hi-Fi?
Again you can read reviews but they are very subjective and the interaction with the rest of a system is a subtle and complex problem so only a local store with the equipment on demo, their (hopefully) knowledgable staff and a good loan system will give you confidence to buy.
Still not convinced?
How about a car?
Would you buy a car without ever having seen it in the flesh, never having driven it or even just sat in it?

Local businesses are not always perfect but they have a very important roll to play in retail and moving to an online based shopping experience isn't always the right way forward.

Many people still like to see what they are buying.

[Colin Southern]

But where do you draw the line?

You were lucky enough to know that the 1Dx was going to be everything you wanted from a camera and you didn't need to see it first - I get that, it does happen. You didn't need to handle it or to feel the weight, its a big canon and you know what they are like from experience.

How about a TV?
You can read reviews but at the end of the day would you buy without ever having seen the picture for yourself? Possibly I don't know.
What about a bit of Hi-Fi?
Again you can read reviews but they are very subjective and the interaction with the rest of a system is a subtle and complex problem so only a local store with the equipment on demo, their (hopefully) knowledgable staff and a good loan system will give you confidence to buy.
Still not convinced?
How about a car?
Would you buy a car without ever having seen it in the flesh, never having driven it or even just sat in it?

Local businesses are not always perfect but they have a very important roll to play in retail and moving to an online based shopping experience isn't always the right way forward.

Many people still like to see what they are buying.

I don't disagree with any of that - but - all the things you mention (regarding local stores) are examples of extra value being added - and that's something people (myself included) may well be prepared to pay for (depending on the item).

What I'm talking about though is the "loyalty" that folks often feel they NEED to give to local businesses regardless. If they feel like the business is offering them better value (including the value of service & knowledge & being able to handle the item) then obviously that represents the best value to that person -- but in situations where the local business ISN'T offering sufficient extra value then I'm asking "why should they get the business" - why should they get "loyalty"? I know of people who still "support local" even though they get terrible service - only because of this (misplaced?) thing called loyalty.

I'm just wondering why that is. I've had quite a few experiences where dealers on our national auction site offer items cheaper - they dispatch promptly - the return emails within a few hours - they go out of their way to source items they don't have etc etc etc - do they not deserve my loyalty more than a local dealer who charges more - doesn't return calls at all - isn't interested in sourcing items not in stock?

[thequacksoflife]

My basic question - which I haven't really found an answer for yet - is "why is there any presumption that local dealers should be given 'loyalty' in the first place?"

Colin, I wouldn't say that there should be presumption of loyalty.

If a local dealer gives me good service, good after sales care etc then my natural reaction would be to go back and show some loyalty. I tend to wander in look at the product and discuss price... if the price is good or good enough then fine (what is good enough ? don't know), if the dealer clearly hasn't got a clue about what he's selling (and some really don't!) I move on.

Some dealers know their range, they know what is coming up etc. They are people who are photographers, then there are people who work in retail.

I accept that a family business in the high street cannot be the cheapest but I'm prepared to pay a bit extra IF they can demonstrate I get something from the transaction...

I won't say that I don't bypass a local shop. Sometimes there is a product where I know it is what I want I've read the reviews and it is way easier to order it off the web. (I mean do you really need to handle a nifty fifty?).

[Mark von Kanel]

News update,

well ive been out of circulation for a couple of days and am surprised that the thread carried on for so long!! Well my camera has arrived fro HDEW and my experience with them has been nothing short of wonderful! i can recommend them to anyone in the UK

I think from reading through all this that you've bought it online as a grey import - a good way to save money - buT you are not going to be able to register it with Nikon UK so you won't get their Nikon UK backed 2 year warranty and you won't be able to register as a pro user (assuming you have the right lenses - you do have the right lenses to go with the D800 don't you?) so the saving may not be as good value as you first thought.

Yes Robin this did concern me but i did some research i contacted the Nikon repair centre that HDEW use (authorised) and they gave a very good report on HDEW and told me not to worry. The camera arrived this morning and its a European model (this was not guaranteed but i do believe that they source from EU where possible) i have registered the product with nikon and they have invited me to join nikon pro users (which i have done)

On top of this HDEW have provided a 3 year (independently underwritten should they fail) extended warranty and all at £190 saving, Lens's well ive a 50 F4 and a 105 2.8 which are both suitable both nikon and ill just have to use my feet to zoom! and that £190 is going towards a 70-200 but cant afford that until January (rome wasn't built in a day)

You have taken the time to research the product, engaged others in a decision making process, attempted to negotiate with your local supplier, and conducted a perfectly sound SWOT(strengths, weakness, opportunity and threats) analysis.

Thanks Soozie nice to know im doing something right!

[Mark von Kanel]

1. A local dealer is always going to be more expensive than a huge multi national because he will buy and sell a handful of a particular camera a year and not a crate full of them every week. Nikon, other brands are the same to varying degrees, will not give small stores competitive discounts, they won't even let the vast majority of them sell what Nikon class as "pro' lines.

Then this is a problem that Nikon need to address but its not a case of a little more is it? in my case the local guy wanted £2059 and Jessops were £25 cheaper i wouldnt have even bothered about £25 id have used him, BUT £190??? thats a lot of money and my origional question was " at what price?" and it turns out that £190 was above my price. I think it is wrong of Nikon to force such price differences between suppliers and countries, its wrong of them not to honour warranties from other countries as well im hoping the European courts will one day address this situation. a camera has a production cost and the markup by Nikon should be the same whomever they supply it to.

I'm not stupid enough to think I get every sale but I've sold items to people on the basis of my knowledge and my teams knowledge when I also know for a fact they understand they are paying a little extra for it. They trust me and they are willing to pay a little more for that trust. It a wonderful feeling and one I am very proud of and one I have spent 23 years building.

and so you should be proud, but how many of your customers will remain loyal having gone through the same process i did? and would you, or even could you remain loyal to a dealer under my circumstances? £190 remember and an extra years warranty......

[Colin Southern]

a camera has a production cost and the markup by Nikon should be the same whomever they supply it to.

Possibly they would argue that it costs them a lot less to supply large quantities, ALL things considered.

The other thing I guess is that if the man in the corner shop comes to you (the manufacturer) and says "how much to buy that camera wholesale) and you say $1500 - and the purchasing manager for a large chain comes to you and asks the same question except he wants to buy 10,000 units instead of 3 - and you say $1500 - do you seriously think he shouldn't get a discount? I can understand why you'd say "no discount" - but I can guarantee if you, as Mr. Nikon won't, then the other guy (Mr. Canon) sure as heck will ... and you can guess who'll get the order!

[Mark von Kanel]

Ahhh well Colin, guess im just an idealist. but your replie still doesnt explain why its possible for a single supplier like HDEW to be able to supply me with a body at a £190 discount when my local retailer who is part of a 29 store chain (although they are independent purchasing will be central) cant do this. All cannot be right in the supply chain. It is what it is i suppose!

[Black Pearl]

Because they aren't buying it from Nikon UK.

They are Grey Importing it - in effect they're not paying typical UK taxes. StarBucks, Amazon and Google are up in front of a Government Comity this week for exactly this reason. Agree or not that this is not fair and either we change the way we generate taxes or we do what is happening and take these crooks (a strong word I agree) to task and stop them ruining out economy.

Of course your supplier was cheaper, it's not a genuine UK sourced D800 and of course your local dealer is more expensive because he's not cheating the system.

[Mark von Kanel]

robin, it would appear that the camera is from slovinia. Since they have been in the EU since 2004 and tax,s paid there are acceptable in the UK no laws have been broken. I don't know how this works but if the only loosers are our grasping politicians then I'm not going to loose any sleep over it.

[Colin Southern]

I don't get it I'm afraid - surely both Nikon UK and "the little guys" are BOTH suppliers who source their product from overseas and BOTH pay taxes on their profits?

[Black Pearl]

They pay taxes on their profits (Starbucks are arguing that they haven't made a profit in the UK for three years so don't have to pay.....that debate is fascinating to follow on the news) but they don't pay the same import duties.

That is what grey importing is about and that is why it is cheaper.

Simply being 'loyal' to a local store doesn't have an answer. I'm not sure I've ever been completely loyal to a particular store simply because it is there, but preferring to spend a little more (in some cases at least) because you like the service from a local store is a valid reason, I feel anyway. As to why they will be more expensive there are many reasons. Bulk buying and supplier discounts I've mentioned but the other fact is that having a retail outlet on the high street is VERY expensive. Staffing costs, rent, rates, heating, lighting, maintenance........this all adds up and if the store is to make a profit - they are there to do that at the end of the day whether we like the idea or not - the price will be higher.

Do we need a high street?
Should we all make the savings and buy online from the cheapest source for all of our needs?
Should the suppliers support the high street more, it is currently a very good outlet for their goods?

Personally I prefer to buy from a shop where I can go in, see what I'm buying, talk to staff, get it there and then, be able to pop in with questions and be able to physically take it back should something go wrong. I may pay more for this privilege but for me personally that is something I'm willing to do.

[Colin Southern]

They pay taxes on their profits (Starbucks are arguing that they haven't made a profit in the UK for three years so don't have to pay.....that debate is fascinating to follow on the news) but they don't pay the same import duties.

That is what grey importing is about and that is why it is cheaper.

Well ... if Starbucks aren't making a profit then they shouldn't be paying tax. I imagine that they're doing all they can to maximise the situation in their favour though ... but then again, it's always a fine line between tax avoidance (legal) and tax evasion (illegal) ... I imagine that that's what the debates are centred on. Bit like Amazon being hit with a 200m tax bill by France, because they channeled their income through there (as I understand it).

With regards to import duties - traditionally, I thought it was the other way around where the unofficial guy got pinged as a disincentive that in turn protected the local industries. Surely the likes of Nikon UK wouldn't be paying import duties?

I had a read of a good Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market - and the mechanism where they're buying from cheaper countries and selling in countries where the product is dearer - seems to be what's happening (around here anyway) - and I really can't see anything wrong with that, so long as folks understand the "down" side of the transaction (such as no warranty being available in the recipient country -- and fair enough too). Interestingly - as I understand it - Apple go to great lengths to ensure that products end up being roughly the same price in differing countries (once taxes etc are taken into account) - and I'm not aware of any big price advantages buying Apple products on the grey market; camera gear, on the other hand ...

Simply being 'loyal' to a local store doesn't have an answer. I'm not sure I've ever been completely loyal to a particular store simply because it is there, but preferring to spend a little more (in some cases at least) because you like the service from a local store is a valid reason, I feel anyway. As to why they will be more expensive there are many reasons. Bulk buying and supplier discounts I've mentioned but the other fact is that having a retail outlet on the high street is VERY expensive. Staffing costs, rent, rates, heating, lighting, maintenance........this all adds up and if the store is to make a profit - they are there to do that at the end of the day whether we like the idea or not - the price will be higher.

Do we need a high street?
Should we all make the savings and buy online from the cheapest source for all of our needs?
Should the suppliers support the high street more, it is currently a very good outlet for their goods?

Personally I prefer to buy from a shop where I can go in, see what I'm buying, talk to staff, get it there and then, be able to pop in with questions and be able to physically take it back should something go wrong. I may pay more for this privilege but for me personally that is something I'm willing to do.

I agree with all of that - what I'm trying to suggest though is that (a) it's a personal choice based on whatever the perceived values are that are to be exchanged in the transaction and (b) wherever one chooses to shop, they need not feel quilty about it because no store deserves loyalty -- if they want the business then it's up to them to ensure they offer the most perceived value for the price that they're asking.

Personally, I'll buy locally because it's convenient - I'll buy nationally because the numbers might fall in my favour - or I might buy from the likes of B&H or Adorama because they're significantly cheaper or even in some cases where they're more expensive but they actually have the goods.

http://www.harveynorman.co.nz/nikon-...gital-slr.html (USD Equivalent 3226)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...mera_with.html (USD 2596)

[Mark von Kanel]

Personally I prefer to buy from a shop where I can go in, see what I'm buying, talk to staff, get it there and then, be able to pop in with questions and be able to physically take it back should something go wrong. I may pay more for this privilege but for me personally that is something I'm willing to do.

Yes i agree Robin and im the same but still the original question remains "at what price do you give up loyalty to your local dealer" Keeping in mind that i got a Nikon Europe model accepted by Nikon as legitimate and membership of Nikon pro user (wish i was good enough to be "pro") an extra years warranty, the product was legally sourced within the EU and still sold to me at £190 discount......Well im not responsible for the crap system but in this case ive got to take advantage of it, i will continue to use my local man where i can and where the cost is what i consider to be acceptable. But you've still not said at what cost you would give up your loyalty but i suppose as your in the trade you get a nice staff discount anyway

And whilst your reading this, Do you have any thoughts on the sigma 70-200 F2.8 OS vs the Nikon 70-200 f2.8 VR ll? sigma is getting some very good reviews. This will be my next purchase and i dont want to waste my money!

Interestingly - as I understand it - Apple go to great lengths to ensure that products end up being roughly the same price in differing countries (once taxes etc are taken into account) - and I'm not aware of any big price advantages buying Apple products on the grey market; camera gear, on the other hand ...

interestingly 18 months ago i bought my first (and last) mac book pro i was working in America at the time and i managed to buy it for $3000 = £2000 at the time the cheapest UK version was £2600 so the difference was even bigger than the camera scenario, But apple honour their warranty world wide! (good job its been a pile of C**P) i dont know weather this was an anomaly i haven't looked at any apple products since!

[Letrow]

I had this conversation with my son about bookshops. Nowadays Amazon (UK or Germany) has terrific deals on books and such (in fact on lots of stuff), most times cheaper than elsewhere on internet or in real bookshops.
I feel no need to support local shops really. First of all the choices are often very limited, so I can't even find everything I need and secondly they charge prices that look like rip-offs if I compare them to Amazon.

For photography equipment it is the same thing. The lenses and cameras that I am interested in are not even carried by the local shops. They only sell the simple mass market cameras.
I have a great online shop (which you can actually visit in person as well if you want) that gives me fair pricing on the hardware and charges approximately Eur 7 to send it over within the Netherlands.

I would make an exception if I had a great shop like BH in my vicinity, as they have fair prices and equipment galore. But even they will send it to you of course.

So, I am pragmatic about it, if the choice and price are better, I will use online.

[Hansm]

Some days ago I read an article in the local newspaper about the need of local shops. They sponsor the local sports clubs and local activities. This in fact is a good argument to support them.
however some time ago I walked in a local shop and asked to have a closer look to a Sony NEX 7 that they had on the shelf. They handed it over to me but when I wanted to power it up, it was not possible. The reason was that their policy was not to place the battery inside. So I was not able to check the menu structure and how the EVF behaves. I could buy the camera and if I did not like it I could return it within 8 days and buy something else for the amount. No money back!!!!!!!
The online shops give better options then. I'm willing to support local shops and even pay a little more,but not to any price.

[Colin Southern]

Some days ago I read an article in the local newspaper about the need of local shops. They sponsor the local sports clubs and local activities. This in fact is a good argument to support them.

I guess that some probably do - but a lot probably don't. Those that do no-doubt do it for the marketing and publicity though. Follow the money ...

[Colin Southern]

I had this conversation with my son about bookshops. Nowadays Amazon (UK or Germany) has terrific deals on books and such (in fact on lots of stuff), most times cheaper than elsewhere on internet or in real bookshops.

I buy a lot of book through Amazon - mostly in the Kindle format. They often work out at less than HALF the cost of buying the same physical item locally.

[Black Pearl]

Mark.

In the case of your D800 I'd have payed the extra for a genuine Nikon UK sourced model - it's just too expensive a purchase to take a risk on. You've struck lucky and I'm glad you're happy with your camera - it's awesome by the way - but there was a risk involved that could have made the purchase a costly mistake and with £2k at stake I'm not sure I would have gambled.

As to the Sigma then it's a great lens but why spend £2k on a body - one with a serious number of pixels - then scrimp on the glass. Yes the Nikon is costly but it will last you a lifetime and most likely be on the front of the next camera you buy...and the next....and the next....etc.