Best editing software...easy to use

[Glenn NK]

[ Note for English [ its it's] experts ... can you have three in tandem or is tandem just two ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem

To quote; "the English word tandem derives from the Latin adverb tandem meaning "at length" or "finally"".

No mention of number in the origin.

With trucks (lorries), tandem refers to two axles and tridem refers to three axles.

Glenn

[Colin Southern]

Read my post again - I'm currently (almost finished) redoing all my images from six years of digital.

If was taking hundreds or thousands of hours, I'd be questioning my own sanity.

Horses for courses -- I'm as fast as anyone I know when it comes to editing, and I've certainly got many hundreds of hours invested in my edits. It's one thing to quickly knock some shots into shape, but it's another kettle of fish altogether producing detailed, professional-quality work.

I'm sorry, but I just find the comment "If one loses the data base in LR, the original RAW files are still intact. It's really no chore to redo the edits in LR" to be bordering on the absurd. I think that most folks would find it one hell of a chore.

[escoville]

As far as I can see, no one has mentioned PhotoFiltre, which is free, very easy to use, and has about 90% of the functionality of Photoshop Elements.

[Glenn NK]

I'm sorry, but I just find the comment "If one loses the data base in LR, the original RAW files are still intact. It's really no chore to redo the edits in LR" to be bordering on the absurd.

Colin:

Admittedly I've only used it for six years, but I've never managed to lose an XMP file.

I believe you gave LR brief trial a while back, and since you don't use it, I'm wondering why you are so hung up on the danger of losing an XMP file?

[stuck]

I have now spent quite a lot of time reading about editing and PP. As I only have the software that came with my Canon camera i.e. ZoomBrowser and Digital Photo Professional I am beginning to wonder if these are not adequate. Should I purchase Photoshop or do you have any other recommendations. Should I try to master what I have or is this a waste of time?
Thanks
Michelle

How long have you used Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Just because it is free and came with your camera doesn't mean it's not good software. I'm still using it two years after acquiring a Canon 400D and it does all I need at this stage in my digital experience. I don't see this as being time wasted if I ever have the money to invest in alternative PP software.

Ken

[Tony M]

Horses for courses -- I'm as fast as anyone I know when it comes to editing, and I've certainly got many hundreds of hours invested in my edits. It's one thing to quickly knock some shots into shape, but it's another kettle of fish altogether producing detailed, professional-quality work.

I'm sorry, but I just find the comment "If one loses the data base in LR, the original RAW files are still intact. It's really no chore to redo the edits in LR" to be bordering on the absurd. I think that most folks would find it one hell of a chore.

I'm not one to put all my eggs in one basket, but indeed that's what I'm doing with LR, and I'd be p****d off if I had to redo all the edits. I have to be careful over backups. C'est la vie. I wonder what professional photographers who use LR do? (I'm sure there are some.)

Tony

[michelleh]

Thanks again to everyone for your responses. I have now down loaded GIMP and Photoscape. I also downloaded PhotoFiltre but could not get it to work properly. I didn't try very hard as it appears that it is not freeware. It came up with a comment that after 40 days it either had to be purchased or deleted from my computer, so I deleted it.
@Ken I have barely used DPP, so I still have a lot to learn. I just found it frustrating when I had posted a photo of the Chapel in the Mountains and Dave Humphries was trying to teach me how to straighten the chapel in the middle of the photograph and I did not have the software to do this. The best I could do with DPP was to slightly rotate the whole photo to get the chapel looking straighter and not at an angle. Also when I have tried to follow other people's editing advice on other people's threads I have again felt rather hamstrung and frustrated. I also realise that I know very little about photography but I am not a very patient person. I want to be able to have the facility to practice everything. When something grabs me I have the need to try it out and do it.
This forum and tutorials, I have barely scraped the surface of. So its like gathering information from every direction. Just looking at the photos posted in the competitions has taught me so much. I guess I'm like a little child in a candy store where I have been told that I can have as much as I want for free. I just want all of it, so I keep grabbing handfuls in no sense of order, but I am learning the language and getting a feel for what everyone is talking about.
Ciao
Michelle

[Colin Southern]

I'm not one to put all my eggs in one basket, but indeed that's what I'm doing with LR, and I'd be p****d off if I had to redo all the edits. I have to be careful over backups. C'est la vie. I wonder what professional photographers who use LR do? (I'm sure there are some.)

Tony

One way around it is to use DNG format and then set LR preferences to save the edits in the DNG file -- that way if you have the DNG, you have the edits ... and it's still completely reversible.

[Colin Southern]

Colin:

Admittedly I've only used it for six years, but I've never managed to lose an XMP file.

I'm talking about undetected corruption of the LR Database, not XMP files. How on earth did they enter the conversation?

I believe you gave LR brief trial a while back, and since you don't use it, I'm wondering why you are so hung up on the danger of losing an XMP file?

I'm not "hung up on the danger of losing an XMP file" in the slightest -- again, how did they enter the conversation? As a professional computer engineer who has seen tears in the eyes of grown men when they realised the cost of data that they've lost, I do however feel an obligation to point out the risks to people who don't have the benefit of the lessons a lifetime in the information technology industry has taught. And one of those lessons is "don't put all your eggs in one basket" ... which is EXACTLY what most folks are doing when they put all of their edits in a single LR database. And frankly, comments along the lines of "hey, it doesn't matter if you lose the lot because it's easy enough to redo them all" is just surreal -- I can't think of many who would want that daunting task. In fact, I can't think of any.

Most people using LR probably aren't backing up regularly at all - and those who do probably aren't retaining historical copies of the database (and thus not realising the consequence of over-writing all current backup sets with undetected corruptions in the database). And even if by chance they do discover an issue - and have historical backups available - they still have to jump through flaming hoops to export the relevant images from the relevant backup sets (being mindful not to lose work later than the backup). All for the sake of using DNG format and changing the default to store the edits with the files, not the database. No brainer in my opinion, but hey, I've only been looking after clients data for around 30 years.

[revi]

As a guess, I'd say the edit parameters are (also?) stored in XMP files (perhaps as an option). So, if all the relevant data are stored in both the database and the XMP files, then (and only then) I'm willing to believe that losing said database isn't a great loss: it'll just have to be regenerated from the XMP files, and the database works as a kind of indexing mechanism (I'm simplifying here, of course), and provides redundancy. Such redundancy might also limit the risks in case of database corruption (I love redundancy ).

As to why it hasn't been mentioned before, no idea. Not considered relevant to the discussion, perhaps? (I beg to differ, as the presence of XMPs chances the picture a lot).

[Colin Southern]

As a guess, I'd say the edit parameters are (also?) stored in XMP files (perhaps as an option).

It's not the default, but yes, you can instruct LR to also store the info to either XMP or DNG. With DNG it's included in the image file, with XMP it's created as a companion "sidecar" file (which means you need to keep the two together -- if for example you were to move one without the other outside of the program then that can cause issues -- especially as far as further editing outside of LR goes (keeping in mind that programs like ACR have no knowledge of the LR catalog).

[pnodrog]

I'm talking about undetected corruption of the LR Database, not XMP files. How on earth did they enter the conversation?



I'm not "hung up on the danger of losing an XMP file" in the slightest -- again, how did they enter the conversation? As a professional computer engineer who has seen tears in the eyes of grown men when they realised the cost of data that they've lost, I do however feel an obligation to point out the risks to people who don't have the benefit of the lessons a lifetime in the information technology industry has taught. And one of those lessons is "don't put all your eggs in one basket" ... which is EXACTLY what most folks are doing when they put all of their edits in a single LR database. And frankly, comments along the lines of "hey, it doesn't matter if you lose the lot because it's easy enough to redo them all" is just surreal -- I can't think of many who would want that daunting task. In fact, I can't think of any.

Most people using LR probably aren't backing up regularly at all - and those who do probably aren't retaining historical copies of the database (and thus not realising the consequence of over-writing all current backup sets with undetected corruptions in the database). And even if by chance they do discover an issue - and have historical backups available - they still have to jump through flaming hoops to export the relevant images from the relevant backup sets (being mindful not to lose work later than the backup). All for the sake of using DNG format and changing the default to store the edits with the files, not the database. No brainer in my opinion, but hey, I've only been looking after clients data for around 30 years.

Colin you will find (or it seems have already observed) that it not just photographers that fail to keep historic backups. For as long as I can remember the recommendation has been to rotate backups with a son, father, grandfather rotation with a complete retirement archive at suitable intervals. The problem is to find suitable media for a long term archive. The last four years I have simply retired an external hard drive and stored them either at work or at my son's house. I reciprocate by storing a few drives for my son.

I am reasonably confident the worst loss I could suffer would be about 3 months of photographic edits. I use Lightroom 4 but I think the way you edit and catalogue your photographs is almost irrelevant to the necessity have a secure backup policy.

The last catastrophic drive failure I had to deal with was over twenty years ago - usually I retire them either because I need a higher capacity drive or I upgrade the entire computer, drives and operating system (about every 5 years) I do not class drives as an archival media but am taking a punt on enough redundancy that the risk is minimal. Compared to film drives are cheap.

P.S. My first contact with the need for backups was with an IBM 360 in 1967 so I beat your 30 years.

[davidedric]

Just in case you thought it was safe to go back in the water.........

Even if we make sure we have back-ups, we may not take the next step of making sure they are usable! I think that just about every "disaster recovery" exercise I have ever done has had issues. (Disaster Recovery typically assumes that your computer centre has burned down, and you have to get everything up and running somewhere else). My personal nightmare was back in the days when LAN's and mini computers were just becoming common. After a server rebuild the boys discovered none of the tapes were readable - misaligned heads on the back up system. Key financial data for a blue chip company. Got it back, but implemented some procedural changes! Then there was the time the vehicle carrying the tapes from their secure, bomb proof, storage to the recovery site was rear-ended on the motor way. Happy days.

Closer to home, if my house were burning down I'd be worried about more than my photos. (When more senior managers used to ask me what would happen if a jumbo jet landed on the building, my first response would be to ask would they be inside it?)

But seriously, I try to take reasonable precautions, take note of what I learn here (I'd never though of the sidecar file issue,, for example), and get on with it.

FWIW my IT provenance is somewhere between that of Paul and Colin

Dave

P.S. and apologies to Michelleh for trampling all over her thread

[Mito]

Michelle, I hope you've understood and learnt everything above. I'm sure that these IT whizz-kids wear two pairs of underpants and carry a spare in their briefcase for back-up.
On a more serious note, I think I'm a few steps ahead of you. Control your desire to learn everything in one go. It's impossible! Try and set yourself a goal to master, when mastered move on to something else. It's what I'm trying to do, easy to say, difficult to do. Above all else, have fun and enjoy it. That's what a hobby is all about.
Oh yes, make backups!!!

[michelleh]

Absolutely Brian. Understand ALL of it. Has made for some interesting but totally mindboggling reading. Dare I ask how to make backups? I take your point on mastering one thing at a time. The one advantage in picking up all the candy in the store is that I am beginning to understand a smattering of the language.
@ Dave. I feel kind of honoured to have sparked all this! Obviously I have had nothing to do with it.

[davidedric]

I'm sure that these IT whizz-kids wear two pairs of underpants

Of course we do - one pair inside and one pair outside our trousers

@Michelle - maybe you didn't intend it - but it's been a cracking thread. Thanks. Dave

[Colin Southern]

Even if we make sure we have back-ups, we may not take the next step of making sure they are usable! I think that just about every "disaster recovery" exercise I have ever done has had issues.

I'll give you a real-world example that happened to me ...

Computer Bureau manager needed to restore a payroll from a mini-computer system, but needed to leave later data for other clients intact. So the plan was to take no less than THREE tape backups of the exiting data (backups were "all or nothing" in those days) - restore the old data - grab what they needed - and then restore one of the three current tape backups.

ALL THREE of the current tape backups failed at different points in the restore ... (off memory taking out an accountancy firm, the local news paper accounts department, 2 share brokers, and a department store).

When it comes to backups, Murphy was an optimist.

[Colin Southern]

Colin you will find (or it seems have already observed) that it not just photographers that fail to keep historic backups. For as long as I can remember the recommendation has been to rotate backups with a son, father, grandfather rotation with a complete retirement archive at suitable intervals. The problem is to find suitable media for a long term archive. The last four years I have simply retired an external hard drive and stored them either at work or at my son's house. I reciprocate by storing a few drives for my son.

It's an exercise in risk-management, but there isn't a "one size fits all" solution; just having a duplicate protects one against a disk failure (but leaves one susceptable to fire / theft etc) - offsite backups protect against fire/theft, but may well leave one exposed to the risk of current work not being backed up or corrupted work being backed up (even with the son - father - grandfather rotation) -- and of course if you get an old backup that doesn't contain the corrupted data then it's still one hell of a headache to merge that with more current non-corrupt work (especially in the case of LR where the edits are in a single database) (and this merging operation carries risks of it's own). How many folks do you know who keep their backup hard drives in a fireproof safe not realising that in the event of a fire they'd lose the lot through not appreciating the difference between a fireproof safe and a data safe?

Long-term storage for backups isn't so much of an issue -- that's more of an issue with archiving (different kettle of fish).

I use Lightroom 4 but I think the way you edit and catalogue your photographs is almost irrelevant to the necessity have a secure backup policy.

Not really -- as a case in point, if edits are stored in a DNG file then the edits stay with the file -- and at that point it's a case of either it's backed up or it's not - so that becomes an easy one to recover from. In the case of all the edits (possibly over many years) being stored in a single dynamic database presents issues even if historical backups are available. Does one then restore an old backup and lose current work? Stick with current work and lose old work? Try to merge the two with it's own set of risks (and skill level requirement)?

The last catastrophic drive failure I had to deal with was over twenty years ago - usually I retire them either because I need a higher capacity drive or I upgrade the entire computer, drives and operating system (about every 5 years) I do not class drives as an archival media but am taking a punt on enough redundancy that the risk is minimal.

Then I'd say you were very lucky. In my "day job" as an IT engineer we see them quite regularly (probably 1 every 2 months) (especially laptops) (roll on SSDs!). Personally I've had 1 drive in a RAID 0 array fail (didn't get my image data but took out all my programs and profiles) - I've lost image data because a mobo change broke a RAID array and the backup was corrupt (DVDs saved the day) - I've lost eMails due to laptop HDD failure. In fact just the other day a RAID 1 mirror broke (leaving the client with a C and E drives!) - and the backup external HDD had failed too -- so they were down to just 1 copy of their data.

P.S. My first contact with the need for backups was with an IBM 360 in 1967 so I beat your 30 years.

Not by many ... I've been in the IT game longer than 30 years

[dan marchant]

I'm sorry, but I just find the comment "If one loses the data base in LR, the original RAW files are still intact. It's really no chore to redo the edits in LR" to be bordering on the absurd. I think that most folks would find it one hell of a chore.

As someone who recently lost part of their database (affected over 2000 images) I'm going to have to disagree.

[pnodrog]

I'll give you a real-world example that happened to me ...

Computer Bureau manager needed to restore a payroll from a mini-computer system, but needed to leave later data for other clients intact. So the plan was to take no less than THREE tape backups of the exiting data (backups were "all or nothing" in those days) - restore the old data - grab what they needed - and then restore one of the three current tape backups.

ALL THREE of the current tape backups failed at different points in the restore ... (off memory taking out an accountancy firm, the local news paper accounts department, 2 share brokers, and a department store).

When it comes to backups, Murphy was an optimist.

We are really talking about two different backup requirements. Although I have over 30,000 photographs in my data base there are only about 500 I would be devastated if I no longer had a copy of the original file. I have no commercial responsibility to any clients. Any loss would purely be personal and re-editing them as required would not be a great hardship and nearly all of my most precious images have already been exported and saved in final form (for now) totally independent from my lightroom data base.

On the other hand a commercial photographer could suffer a direct loss of either sales or even more importantly reputation. So the investment in backing up and the necessity of not wanting to do any re-editing is at a different level.

Bad luck having three backup tapes play up - you must have done something really wicked in a past life.