Wedding help...

[bowneracing99]

Progress is beautiful! I read Colins' guide last night.
And for the remaining answers. I would get the 2.8 24-70.
And the 2.8 (IS Possibly) for the 70-200mm.
I definitely see what you mean with the primes, Every time I got through the drill again, i cant see why having a 24-105 as an all around fail safe would hurt, performance seems good on both ends, and it is one of the least expensive low dispersion lenses. Good to have in the bag, but never "forced" to bring it out. The main negative I can pull from is if I have no flash, I'm going to have to push Iso's a tad, but the 5d and 6d preform well in this aspect...

[shreds]

PS giving an SD card of ropey images is not the best way to present yourself.

One thing I learnt many years ago was that less is more, but you really need to work those images before letting the B&G see them. How often do real Pro's give away an SD card? Even if they sell a CD, it should be at a price to reflect the work and lost reproduction fees and the images should be of a very high standard.

Don't embarrass yourself and disappoint the couple unless you have the shots they want and would stand up the scutiny on here!

[bowneracing99]

I would most definitely post them, you guys get my best, and worse, always(see sunset samurai)... And you're right, if i do the job with no zeal, it will reflect, not upon their budget, but my abilities.

[William W]

I would get the 2.8 24-70. And the 2.8 (IS Possibly) for the 70-200mm.

Understood.
My suggestion is the 70 to 200 IS, is the only answer for the 70 to 200. We can discuss detailed rationale, if you wish.

***

I definitely see what you mean with the primes, Every time I got through the drill again, i cant see why having a 24-105 as an all around fail safe would hurt, performance seems good on both ends, and it is one of the least expensive low dispersion lenses. Good to have in the bag, but never "forced" to bring it out. The main negative I can pull from is if I have no flash, I'm going to have to push Iso's a tad, but the 5d and 6d preform well in this aspect...

OK - I follow your thinking: Your solution, is NOT suitable for the WAY I WORK - so I will explain a counter point of view.

We are now speaking about the 24 to 70/2.8 as your main working lens: you can expect that about 80% of the shots will be taken with that lens during a Wedding Coverage. We are discussing what redundancy we might have IF that 24 to 70 lens goes down. Buying a 24 to 105/4 L IS, is one option and the option you selected. Reiterating, I believe that I DO understand your thinking.

However, now let’s look at the OTHER values of you buying the 24 to 105/4. The main two values is it will get to 105 (the 24 to 70 stops at 70) and it will have IS. The down side is, it is a slower lens.

So essentially - IF I understand correctly, you are thinking to invest (about $890) for a lens which will be mainly “Stand-by”. But the lens really has no “added value” if it were sitting on your “Stand-by” camera, whilst you are using your 5D MkIII and the 24 to 70/2.8, because you might as well have the 70 to 200/2.8 sitting on that “standby camera” as it would be more useful to take the occasional unplanned shot

To be clear - I am not meaning to purposely run you around in circles, but I ask you to think on this specific question: would a fast 35 Prime or a fast 50 Prime be MORE USEFUL sitting on the 6D to make the odd additional shot when you are using the 24 to 70/2.8? AND would either (or both) of those lenses still provide you with enough Lens Redundancy, to complete the job should your 24 to 70/2.8 fail?

Now your answer might be “hell no, I want the convenience of a zoom – I would be bananas trying to shoot a Wedding with Primes” and that answer is OK.

WW

(I reiterate that the discussion between we two, is specific about gear and that “Gear” is only one element of this whole question you are asking – and “gear” is not the MOST important element, but it is AN important element.)

[jcuknz]

Since I can see the point of both arguments expressed here I suggest that you go ahead with that young couple who true cannot afford to pay anybody but keep well clear of anything where you are expected to deliver, or ELSE! ....
it is so different to how I started doing weddings and turning up at the church with no training and learnt on the job over the following weeks with subsequent weddings or two of them every Saturday with just one camera [ a Leica ] and a 50mm prime. [ f/3.5 Elmar ]

You should have been starting sixty years ago. Of course in those days there was usually the 'Studio' back-up and I was just doing informals, [house, church, reception ] except for the poor people who had me do formals [ Gardens] as well ... times are very different now and I wouldn't want to be starting these days. I met the groom from that first wedding years later when we worked together and he remembered and was pleased with my work so obviously I got it right from the start.

WW and others of his kind scare the hell out of me with their requirements based on current conditions. And the apparent unreliability of equipment these days ... I never had more than one camera and my original flash served me over several cameras. Camera changed as I worked for several firms but always a Leica with sometimes a f/2 Summicron until I bought my own camera and went Japanese then.

So read my first sentance again

[William W]

WW and others of his kind scare the hell out of me with their requirements based on current conditions. And the apparent unreliability of equipment these days ... I never had more than one camera and my original flash served me over several cameras. Camera changed as I worked for several firms but always a Leica with sometimes a f/2 Summicron until I bought my own camera and went Japanese then.

jcuknz:

I have no idea what you consider "WW and other of his kind" to be.

However I can state:

I shot my first Wedding in 1976.

For that Wedding I used 2 x 645 bodies and four Prime Lenses and three 135 format cameras with one zoom and three Primes; two Metz Flash units and one Back-Up Vivitar Flash.

I worked on commission for a Premium W&P Studio in Sydney Australia. I worked for that studio for 12 months, subsequently I opened my own Studio with a business partner. Subsequent to that I have shot over 1500 Weddings. (that's - one thousand and five hundred)

***

We each choose our own level of equipment requirements and the reasons those choices.

There at no “current conditions”.

The rationale for System Redundancy was as much a viable argument in 1976, as it is today.

We each chose our level and support and adherence to what we view as our individual requirement to Customer Service.

For me and my business is the dedication to the provision of Ultimate Customer Service – no mistake is to be tolerated.

Your choices might be different.

WW

[Colin Southern]

WW and others of his kind scare the hell out of me with their requirements based on current conditions. And the apparent unreliability of equipment these days ... I never had more than one camera and my original flash served me over several cameras.

So ...

... B&G set a date - book the church & reception hall - arrange flowers - food - dress - suits - flowers - photographer - and many more things. And on the day something goes wrong with your one and only camera. Wouldn't like to be in your shoes by the time the lawyers had finished with you.

I suspect you'd be both apologising and picking up the pieces of your shattered reputation for a few years as well ...

[bowneracing99]

WW,
I meant as the 24-105 to be complete standby (bag) so if either lens failed, I could use it as sort of a middle-ground. The aperture is a tad off from what I'd like... A 35mm might be nice as a back up though, and i really want to own one all things aside. And I do really want to deliver for my buddy, the weddings not for a while (no date set). So I have time to prepare, and I'm seeking out a way the second shoot, so i can give it a go without 100% of the pressure... And i totally understand your passion WW, it is certainly a moment (for most) that is second only to having their first child... I want to deliver, I'm actively trying to improve. I read, I try and find other people that are helpful on island, but even the newspaper photographers just use a camera because they have to. There aren't many hobbyists, and no shops, so I mainly bug you guys, I'd rather look foolish here, then end up in claims court...

[bowneracing99]

Forgot to say that i completely understand the redundancy, if the 70-200 malfunctioned i would be basically just shooting with the 24-70, as the 24-105 doesnt reach out (much) farther, and is a lot slower. I saw some talk of using 135mm, but with no IS, is that a poor idea? (not as a back up)

Also, are there any 3rd party lenses that are as reliable as Canon? Sigma and Tamron have some interesting lenses...

[AB26]

Hi Tyler,

I do not want you to get me wrong. I am not saying Wedding Photography is easy. All the advice given to you in this thread is good advice to carefully consider. Most of these guys have much more experience than me. I am also learning from them.

I am in more or less the same boat as you are. I am using a Nikon D200 with Nikkor 18-135mm F3.5 and a Nikkor 35mm F1.8 lenses. My flash is a Nikon Speedlight SB-80DX. I need to add another flash to my kit, a Nikon SB600. I am not selling myself as a Pro and therefore I am not charging Professional fees. What I am doing at the moment is trying to build a portfolio. You need to start somewhere. Even if you had all the best kit in the world it is no guarantee you will be able to do a satisfactory job.

The David Zisers and Steve Sints of this world had to start somewhere. Do you for one moment think that David Ziser was a renowned Wedding Photographer from the moment he did his first wedding? What I find very helpful is reading as much on Wedding Photography as I can. I spend hours on the internet looking at portfolios of “real” Wedding Photographers. I have books on Wedding Photography. A very helpful book is one written by Steve Sint. In the book he gives many tips on how to set up a Wedding Photography business. He shares a repertoire with his readers, gives tips on lighting and techniques and many more.

I believe many fail at Wedding Photography because they only see it as a quick way of making money from Photography. If money is your greatest motivation I doubt that you will ever make it. It is very rewarding when the bride is happy with what you have done, that should be your greatest motivation.

If you are any good at Portrait Photography and you like doing it you should also be good at wedding Photography. I think Wedding Photography is very much a series of portraits under more difficult conditions. In a Portrait Studio you have all the control over light that you need. Those highly paid Wedding Photographers take lots of gear, and an assistant/s, with them and turn the location into a controlled studio setup. If you have the passion I hope you will also get there.

Get your gear together and give it a go. Protect yourself with drafting a good contract protecting both yourself and your client. Many an experienced Photographer has had mishaps. I have heard of Photographers failing to load film in a camera in the days of film. Your memory card may fail; you might be involved in an accident before or after the wedding. Your gear may be lost or damaged.

You need to learn to swim and the only way is to be in the water. At times you may feel you are sinking but that only makes you paddle harder to keep your head above water. Every wedding you shoot will be better than the one before.

Good luck and hope to see one of your wedding shoots soon.

[shreds]

Ok. I figure that you have absorbed everything said here by both sides and you are still determined. In that case, lets try and get you as prepared as you can be, cause a load of internet photographers are not going to disuade you.

1. Get insurance, its cheap and is the ultimate get out of jail card! Provided you have a contract. There are some decent ones that you can download to an iphone now so you have no excuse, just be sure they sign it before the day.
2. Take an assistant as well as a second shooter if possible.
3. Have a set list of shots you want to do.
4. Agree these with the couple, but bear in mind you will also need to do the 'Mum and Dad' shots, the traditional stuff.
5. Read Scott Kelbys idiot guides 1-4 cant recall the exact titles but once you get through the crap, this guy talks a lot of practical sense.
6. Get a book on poses.
7. Check out other quality wedding photographers websites; Brett Harkness for instance.
8. Set up a couple of model shoots before hand. Yes, hire a couple of professional models and you will learn loads from them. Yes it will cost, but will get you used to directing with confidence. If there are no models on Guam then you will have to rope any one in that you can. Just set it up as if it was a real wedding. Or even do a dummy set with the couple, but be aware that they will become aware of all your goofs too, which might not be a good idea.
9. Visit your locations two or three times beforehand at a similar time to when the wedding will be held. Check the light, look for 'sets' in fact anything that might be relevant on the day. Look for any problems. Speak to folk in charge at hotels/chapels etc and get a feel for the places.
10. Stop worrying about equipment.

[AB26]

I worked on commission for a Premium W&P Studio in Sydney Australia. I worked for that studio for 12 months, subsequently I opened my own Studio with a business partner. Subsequent to that I have shot over 1500 Weddings. (that's - one thousand and five hundred)

Bill,

After 1500 Weddings you should be very experienced in Wedding Photography and being a teacher of Photography it would be a great help to aspirant Wedding Photographers at CiC if you could start a thread on teaching Wedding Photography. Posting images in the thread explaining how you did it will help many of us rookies wishing to do more than the “Uncle Fred” type of shoot.

I and many others will appreciate it if you would furnish a link to your portfolio so we can learn from your experience. You should not let your valuable experience go to waste while you are a member of this wonderful community of learning Photographers.

Regards,

Andre

[Colin Southern]

Bill,

After 1500 Weddings you should be very experienced in Wedding Photography

After 1500+ weddings I think he deserves a medal!

[William W]

Andre,

After 1500 Weddings you should be very experienced in Wedding Photography and being a teacher of Photography it would be a great help to aspirant Wedding Photographers at CiC if you could start a thread on teaching Wedding Photography. Posting images in the thread explaining how you did it will help many of us rookies wishing to do more than the “Uncle Fred” type of shoot.

That’s an idea and I will discuss with Colin, the possibility of a Wedding and Portrait “Primer” or a “Starter” Tutorial.

As you correctly point out, I teach. That is one source of my income. It would therefore be an imprudent business choice to give away pro bono what Clients pay for in Workshops. Doing so would also be disrespectful to my Clients.

This is a constant balancing act. For example, I shoot a lot of work pro bono for Amateur Sports Teams. Amongst those groups there is always a range of ‘Photographers’, from ‘Soccer Parents with White Lenses’ to kids who want advice about ‘my first camera’. When questions are asked or favours requested – one can only (and must) provide so much, pro bono, before one must stop.

Stopping the free give away at a point is important and also respectful to all my Clients from very capable Photographers who are Workshop Attendees to the one or two High School Arts Students whom I take on each year and who pay me with their Mum and Dads’ hard earned money, for one to one coaching.

You, as a small business owner, would be very well placed to understand this concept: I would expect that you only give away so many sample widgets, in your business?

***

I and many others will appreciate it if you would furnish a link to your portfolio so we can learn from your experience. You should not let your valuable experience go to waste while you are a member of this wonderful community of learning Photographers.

You can view some of my work here. Amongst that particular Portfolio you will find excerpts from various jobs, not just Weddings, as well as some personal work. Also many of the images are specific learning tools.

***

As it occurs to me I do not let my “valuable experience go to waste”.

I’d suggest that it is necessary for you to understand, that if one is in the business of selling one’s intellectual property, one must balance what is given pro bono.

***

If you require further reference, you can view some of background done on me, by this Administration, here.
http://photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VUoL

***

However you’ve asked me to share some valuable experience with you – this is one of the most valuable set of five tips I can provide for any budding business person, wishing to start a business selling their images and this comment is very important for a Wedding and Portrait Business, specifically:

• Understand completely, Copyright Law – in your particular location.
• Consider how to set up your business so it is the MOST valuable entity of itself.
• Understand exactly how and what you can display as samples, for your business.
• Consider in what entity (Business or Personal) Copyright should be vested and reside.
• Know when and what to give away - and to whom.

***

You might note that I often punctuate my commentary in threads with specific Photographic examples and you’ll not necessarily find those examples elsewhere.

And for an example, in this thread the EF 35/1.4 has been discussed as “useful” and the OP wants one – here is an example of a Wedding Story Montage, made using the EF 35/1.4 on an EOS 5D and shooting only with Available Light:

©2012 AJ Group Pty Ltd AUS

***

I trust this detailed response adequately addresses your specific requests; provides some valuable food for thought and allays any concerns, which you might have had.


Regards,
William

[William W]

After 1500+ weddings I think he deserves a medal!

I can't drink a medal.

[Colin Southern]

I can't drink a medal.

How about a gold medal wine?

[William W]

I tought that was what you meant to write . . .

[jcuknz]

WW ... To a photographer with integrity there is no difference in our situations ... one makes sure the photos one takes are of high quality and what the customer wants at the price they want to pay. I was working in the period 1954 through to 1963 and towards the end was working with a Rolleiflex for personal satisfaction instead of 35mm when I joined TV for the next 26 years. Only with digital have I become moderately interested in still photography. In earlier days it was something I could do well as I waited for a movie job to come my way after photo school where I think in retrospect the main thing I learnt was what quality is.

This subject comes up on various blogs and that is why I wrote 'WW and his sort' ... currently experts in a job I did in the past under very different conditions and demands. I think the advent of digital and the potential to do so much more in the way of candid and formal shots has created a rod for photographers backs. Many think that all you have to do is snap at the right moment, I am sure burst helps here somewhat. But I am not impressed with the results of this with the few recent weddings I have seen where considerable sums passed hands. It is mostly crap by my standards* but I know how difficult it is to shoot on the fly with both film and stills. I was impressed by the sheer common sense of an acknowledged top American wedding photographer who spots candid shots and then stages them for his camera with a minimum of interferance to what is going on.

* On the other hand the clients seem to think it is wonderful so who am I to say nay

[William W]

jc,
Thank you for your expanded and detailed reply.

WW

[AB26]

Stopping the free give away at a point is important and also respectful to all my Clients from very capable Photographers who are Workshop Attendees to the one or two High School Arts Students whom I take on each year and who pay me with their Mum and Dads’ hard earned money, for one to one coaching.

***
I’d suggest that it is necessary for you to understand, that if one is in the business of selling one’s intellectual property, one must balance what is given pro bono.

***

I trust this detailed response adequately addresses your specific requests; provides some valuable food for thought and allays any concerns, which you might have had.


Regards,
William

Hi Bill,

I appreciate your reply.

I noticed that 80% of the Photography shoots you now do is done Pro Bono.
“ William’s Company still provides him with the conduit to continue shooting professionally, which he does; but 80% of the work is now Pro Bono, by choice.” Extract from William W.'s Biography as published on Photo.net.

Would it not be more Pro Bono to share knowledge on an international forum like this? Maybe you can share 80% of your knowledge on this forum, Pro Bono. I do not believe it would be disrespectful to your clients, as I am of the opinion, that most of the members on this forum cannot afford to pay thousands of Dollars to attend Photographic workshops and/or subscribe to a good photographic course.

The only intellectual property any Photographer can lay claim on are the actual images captured by that individual. I am not asking you to give away the images you have captured, all I am asking of you is to share your valuable knowledge. Knowledge of photography cannot be called intellectual property as intellectual property is unique and can be registered.

For me, reluctance to share knowledge on a forum like CiC is cause for concern. As you are a Professional Photographer you should be on CiC to share knowledge. It is cause for concern when an enthusiastic member of CiC is discouraged by a Professional Photographer whom only paint the dark side of the moon. Tyler, Lex, myself and many others wish to learn from the “Gurus”. When the “Gurus” only tell us how much money you need to lay out before you can do the job, how will anybody ever get to do the job on a tight budget? Why not rather teach us how a David Ziser will shoot a wedding with a P&S camera?

That is the kind of knowledge I am eager to gain, how to do it and not how not to do it. My bottle is not half empty, it is half full. There are many of us who wish to learn from you Gurus. However, it seems all the Gurus started out with loads of money knowledge and all the best equipment available. None ever learned to swim, all seem to have been born Michael Phelpses.

Interesting though Bill, in the wedding photo competition judged by you, on Photo.net, there were two categories, Photographers with less than 3 years experience and those with more than 3 years experience. You must therefore acknowledge that doing Wedding Photography, and any other form of photography, has to be a learning curve. How do you learn if you are being denied the opportunity, either by a restricted budget or reluctant teachers?

Regards,

Andre