Do Lightroom presets change prints please?

[Bettyboo]

Hi,

I uploaded 10 images for my last assignment on my course to Photobox having done some work to them, mainly a Lightroom preset I bought.

On my screen they looked exactly as I wanted them, but when they arrived from Photobox they were washed out and not at all like I had seen. I raised it with them and they said some 'red eye' box had been ticked, so they unticked it and resent the images again. But with exactly the same outcome, unusable.

I printed one off on my humble little printer, and although the quality of the print wasn't brilliant, the colours were more or less as I had wanted/seen on the IMac screen.

I don't understand what I have done wrong to make their images so different to the ones on my screen and little printer.

Photobox have printed a few for me before, but I hadn't done virutally anything to them post production, and certainly not a preset.

Is the preset the issue? or should I have done something to them before I sent them please?

I have attached an image which shows parts of both Photobox's image and mine together, if you can see the difference?

Many thanks in advance for any assistance, I am really confused and running out of time for my project and I am beginning to panic now

Lynne

[Manfred M]

A few thoughts:

1. Are you using sRGB in your settings. If not and are using a wider gamut like AdobeRGB, chances are the printer is assuming sRGB and you will get flatter looking prints. Look under the <Files> <Preferences> settings in Lightroom to fix this.

2. The second common problem is that your monitor is set too bright. Your monitor uses a transmitted light RGB additive process while a print uses a reflected light CMYK subtractive process. The best solution here is some trial and error and make adjustments in you output to compensate for your printer being too bright. I generally use Photoshop and have a couple of approaches I use. In the Develop module use the exposure slider to increase the exposure (try 0.1 and 0.2) and print these to see if this helps. You will find that these will look overexposed in Lightroom and hopefully will look better in print. Once you know the amount of compensation to use, just add that to the images before you send them off to be printed.

[Bettyboo]

Thank you Manfred, I will go through this, slowly! and send one off to them again and see what happens.

I know I haven't calibrated my monitor yet, it was something I was working towards, perhaps I should do this sooner rather than later as well?

Thanks again for your assistance, much appreciated.

Lynne

[Manfred M]

I know I haven't calibrated my monitor yet, it was something I was working towards, perhaps I should do this sooner rather than later as well?

Lynne - I use a profiled and calibrated monitor and still have the issue. The problem is that it is difficult to turn down the brightness on a LCD screen far enough to give the same visual results as a print; profiled or not, so I still have to go through the correction stage. When you do turn down the brightness; the monitor seems dull; so like most people I run mine a bit brighter and this means I have to adjust before printing.

[DanK]

Prints will never exactly match the screen. One source is backlit, while the other is reflective. However, if your own prints are closer to what you see onscreen than the ones you get back from a lab, there is something else going on. Without knowing how you printed (e.g., did you have lightroom control colors, the printer, or accidentally both? What profile did you use?), it's really impossible to know what is going on.

There is also no way to know what impact the preset is having without knowing what it is. Most lightroom presets are edits, and they should affect both the on-screen image and prints, but perhaps the one you used isn't of this sort.

I would say that the first step is calibrating your monitor. If you don't do that, everything is guesswork. After that, you need to learn the details about exporting images from Lightroom--in particular, the use of the correct color space, as Manfred suggested. Most labs want sRGB.

[Bettyboo]

HI Manfred, I take yours and Dan's comments about the monitor. I bought the iMac because the clarity was so lovely and clear, but I realise now that this is also a bit of hindrance if you don't know what you are doing like me!

I have gone to the Preference thing in Lightroom as you said and changed the two drop downs that mention colour to sRBG. Also they were on 16bits which explains why they kept being exported into CS6 as 16 bits and not 8 bits which I was expecting, so that will save me time as well.

Boy, do I have a lot to learn!!

I uploaded one of the image I had exported BEFORE I made the changes to Photobox and it looked dull and similar to the ones I had problems with. I have just exported the same image again, this time with your changes, uploaded it and it looks much much better. So I am going to order it, as a tester and see what happens.

I will have to do the second part of your advice, so all looking promising!

Thanks for your help again, I have loads already today

[Bettyboo]

HI Dan,

The pre sets I used in Lightroom are ones I bought from Nicolesy. It was for the food photography assignment I am doing, as I have only just got Lightroom and CS6 and didn't know where to start. So I thought I would buy those, then when I have finished my course (if I ever do at this rate!) I can go through each of the pre sets and see what she has changed, so I can learn to do the alterations myself rather than having to reply on someone else's.

I am afraid I have no idea what Lightroom control colours are? I know I didn't do anything to my printer, as it is only a little combination Canon and I just press print!! I do have Scott Kelby's Lightroom 4 book, so I will read about colour now (probably should have done that first )

However, I do realise now from what you and Manfred have said, that when I was exporting from Lightroom to CS6, the 'Colour Space' was ProPhoto RGB, so that might well have been one of the problems.

I will get the monitor calibrated as well and I am really grateful to you for your assistance, much appreciated.

Take care, Lynne

[DanK]

the 'Colour Space' was ProPhoto RGB, so that might well have been one of the problems.

yes, that is a big problem

[dan marchant]

In addition to keeping track of the colour space and calibrating your monitor you will also need to get the printer profile. Currently your system knows nothing about the printer or its inks so you should check the website to see if they have a profile you can download for their printers.

[Macmahon]

However, I do realise now from what you and Manfred have said, that when I was exporting from Lightroom to CS6, the 'Colour Space' was ProPhoto RGB, so that might well have been one of the problems.

I will get the monitor calibrated as well and I am really grateful to you for your assistance, much appreciated.

Take care, Lynne

Lynne

Just checking that you have understood this correctly. Passing an image file that is encoded in the ProPhoto colour space, from LR to Photoshop CS6, is not a problem. In fact, on balance, it's a strength. You can be sure that all the colours in your image are retained for whatever you want to do in PS. PS CS6 is perfectly capable of correctly interpreting that encoding and getting on with it!

Where you need to be careful is when you pass an image file to some outfit like Photobox. If they do not know how to interpret a file encoded in ProPhoto they can screw up badly (they should be able to, but that's a whole 'nother story) It sounds like this is what has happened.

When you're finally exporting a file, from either LR or Photoshop, to send to Photobox, then, and only then, the file needs to be encoded in a space they can interpret. They should tell you what they require (but I note that the website is silent, which is a worry.) It is probable that they will want the file in sRGB: a 'least common denominator' compromise, but a lot of online printers do that. You potentially throw away some highly saturated colour information making that conversion, but otherwise 'it works'. The better solution, as Dan says, is to export your file encoded in their printer's colour space, which you can do by exporting it with their 'printer profile' (if they actually know what it is and are willing to let you have it.)


There's an explanation of why it's important to get the colour space encoding correct on this page, and the couple of pages following.

In short. Don't limit the colour space when sending a file to PS CS6. Do be careful when exporting to send to a printer: particularly one that is printing 'colour-doesn't-matter-much' consumer-oriented snaps.

BTW. The best resources to learn about Lightroom, IMHO, are Julianne Kost's videos on Youtube, and Martin Evening's book. They are both involved in the development of LR. Kelby is readable, but often sloppy, and sometimes wrong.

Cheers

Tim

PS I agree with the others. Make sure your monitor is as well profiled as possible before making any critical decisions about colours.

[revi]

(...)

Where you need to be careful is when you pass an image file to some outfit like Photobox. If they do not know how to interpret a file encoded in ProPhoto they can screw up badly (they should be able to, but that's a whole 'nother story) It sounds like this is what has happened.

When you're finally exporting a file, from either LR or Photoshop, to send to Photobox, then, and only then, the file needs to be encoded in a space they can interpret. They should tell you what they require (but I note that the website is silent, which is a worry.) It is probable that they will want the file in sRGB: a 'least common denominator' compromise, but a lot of online printers do that. You potentially throw away some highly saturated colour information making that conversion, but otherwise 'it works'.

As it's not very likely their printers would cover a much larger colour space, sRGB isn't that bad. In fact, afaik, there's no technology that can print or display the full Prophoto colour space.

The better solution, as Dan says, is to export your file encoded in their printer's colour space, which you can do by exporting it with their 'printer profile' (if they actually know what it is and are willing to let you have it.)

Are you sure about that? I always understood that a 'printer profile' is a correction relative to a colour space to correct the deviations from the device/paper/ink/settings combination (i.e. a device profile). And in that case, you most certainly don't want to convert your image to their printer profile. The only use of the printer profile would be in soft proofing before sending the file in for printing (soft proofing means that you try to simulate on screen how the print will look, and especially which colours would end up 'out of gamut' i.e. in an unprintable region of the colour space).

There's an explanation of why it's important to get the colour space encoding correct on this page, and the couple of pages following.

In short. Don't limit the colour space when sending a file to PS CS6. Do be careful when exporting to send to a printer: particularly one that is printing 'colour-doesn't-matter-much' consumer-oriented snaps.

I'd even go a step further and convert to sRGB for export to printer or screen, unless I had a good reason to do otherwise.

BTW. The best resources to learn about Lightroom, IMHO, are Julianne Kost's videos on Youtube, and Martin Evening's book. They are both involved in the development of LR. Kelby is readable, but often sloppy, and sometimes wrong.

Cheers

Tim

PS I agree with the others. Make sure your monitor is as well profiled as possible before making any critical decisions about colours.

Another note: a larger colour space means that the distance between neighbouring colours is larger, so avoid Prophoto when editing in 8 bits/channel: there's too much risk of posterisation for (in most cases) little gain.
Also, a scene that has no very saturated colours won't benefit from a large colour space. Ideally, you'd use the smallest colour space that holds all colours in your original scene.

And: inkjet printing is done in CMYK, which is a subtractive system. You won't be able to get a perfect correspondence between print and screen for that reason alone. (small prints are still done a lot on photographic paper, which is again a different process).

[Macmahon]

As it's not very likely their printers would cover a much larger colour space, sRGB isn't that bad. In fact, afaik, there's no technology that can print or display the full Prophoto colour space.

I too know of no technology that can print all of the colours represented in ProPhoto, but all of my printers can print more than what's in sRGB. Why throw away that information? I had a very sad experience of failing to satisfy a client whose coat was a highly saturated cyan because we restricted our workflow to sRGB and could show her only a crappy dark blue - the limit of sRGB. Never again.

....I always understood that a 'printer profile' is a correction relative to a colour space to correct the deviations from the device/paper/ink/settings combination (i.e. a device profile). And in that case, you most certainly don't want to convert your image to their printer profile. The only use of the printer profile would be in soft proofing before sending the file in for printing (soft proofing means that you try to simulate on screen how the print will look, and especially which colours would end up 'out of gamut' i.e. in an unprintable region of the colour space).

Only use? Well, a very good use if the printer can't deal with anything but an abstract space and you want to anticipate what the print may look like.

However, I've never been able to understand why, other than because of ignorance, a printer who can make a conversion to a device profile from sRGB can't do the same from ProPhoto or any other space that contains all the colour information that you might want to print.

OTOH if they really don't know anything about colour management, then giving them the file encoded for their printer and requesting it be printed without any further colour correction would be a good solution, don't you think? Although I concede that it's most likely that a printer who didn't know anything about colour management is almost certainly not going to know how to print without colour correction either.

This, incidentally, is why I do all my own printing.

I'd even go a step further and convert to sRGB for export to printer or screen, unless I had a good reason to do otherwise.

My good reason would be that I want to preserve all the colours I have. Agreed, if there no highly saturated colours at all in the image it hardly matters what colour space you use. But, on that basis, it seems that sRGB is the exception, rather than the rule. ProPhoto will cope with any colours an image may have.

Another note: a larger colour space means that the distance between neighbouring colours is larger, so avoid Prophoto when editing in 8 bits/channel: there's too much risk of posterisation for (in most cases) little gain

True. Always edit in 16bit when using ProPhoto. (Hard to imagine why you'd edit in 8-bits/channel in a modern workflow no matter what colour space encoding you were using.) Little gain? See above.

Cheers

Tim

[revi]

I too know of no technology that can print all of the colours represented in ProPhoto, but all of my printers can print more than what's in sRGB. Why throw away that information? I had a very sad experience of failing to satisfy a client whose coat was a highly saturated cyan because we restricted our workflow to sRGB and could show her only a crappy dark blue - the limit of sRGB. Never again.

Only use? Well, a very good use if the printer can't deal with anything but an abstract space and you want to anticipate what the print may look like.

However, I've never been able to understand why, other than because of ignorance, a printer who can make a conversion to a device profile from sRGB can't do the same from ProPhoto or any other space that contains all the colour information that you might want to print.

OTOH if they really don't know anything about colour management, then giving them the file encoded for their printer and requesting it be printed without any further colour correction would be a good solution, don't you think? Although I concede that it's most likely that a printer who didn't know anything about colour management is almost certainly not going to know how to print without colour correction either.

This, incidentally, is why I do all my own printing.

My good reason would be that I want to preserve all the colours I have. Agreed, if there no highly saturated colours at all in the image it hardly matters what colour space you use. But, on that basis, it seems that sRGB is the exception, rather than the rule. ProPhoto will cope with any colours an image may have.
(...)

Note that I was talking about the colour space for the final file to be displayed or sent out for printing.

You clearly have the knowledge, equipment and good reasons to use other colour spaces than sRGB all along your workflow.
But (I think) most of us here aren't in that situation.
And lots of print shops either say nothing or want sRGB explicitly. If the shops states what other spaces they accept, by all means use another (larger) accepted space.
But, for those that can accept ProPhoto or such, would you trust them to use the proper algorithm to treat colours outside their printer gamut?
So yes, I still say, unless you have a good reason to do otherwise, send in files to be printed in sRGB (or if accepted, aRGB).

As for printer profiles, yes, they have good uses, but those uses do not require converting your image to them. And as you said, a shop that knows what it's doing doesn't need you to apply the corrections beforehand, and the others wouldn't know how not to apply the device profile for an individual image (leading to it possible being applied twice if you have converted your image). And the person(s) responsable for maintaining the equipment might know what they are doing (i.e. they install the proper profiles when changing paper and ink), that doesn't mean the operator knows anything beyond which button to push to send a file to be printed...

Remco

[Bettyboo]

Gosh thanks both, really interesting, although some of it doesn't mean as much as it should at the moment, I will save this and keep reading it as I get more experienced.

Thank you for the link and recommendations Tim, I suppose at the moment I find Scott Kelby's book easy to follow, but I do want to learn as much as I can about PS and Lightroom, so will have a look at those as well.

Thanks again everyone for all your advice and guidance, really helpful

[BDM]

Although I can't comment about photo box since I do not use it, I do think it is very important that you profile your monitor and printer. There are a number of software and hardware options to do that. You might explore colormunki from Xrite among other suppliers. Although you can try the trial and error approach, that will waste a lot of paper and ink and you will probably only approximate the results you are looking for. You should also turn on the soft proofing feature in light room which should give you a better on-screen representation of what the ultimate print will look like. But I again stress the most helpful thing you can do is to profile your monitor and printer. You will be amazed at the improvement that will bring for your results. The software and hardware will pay for itself in very short order by ensuring that the first print is right, thereby saving a lot of ink and paper not to mention frustration.