24-70 for Canon

[wooster]

Hi folks.

I shoot a lot of events and some weddings. I also shoot lots of family portraits in and out of the studio.

I've recently sold off my Nikon gear and gone completely Canon ( long story ) and I'm looking for a suitable 24-70 f2.8. I haven't had a Canon version thought I did own a Nikon 24-70 which I liked a lot. I can't really afford the new mk 2 Canon version and I hear the mk 1 isn't absolutely stellar - but that could be internet tattle.

I was looking to go for a second hand mk1 but then I kept hearing the Tamron with VC was a greta performer. I like the idea of VC and looking at reviews the IQ of this lens seems pretty good for my purposes though admittedly not great at the corners this wouldn't be a biggie for me.

However, as I say, I do shoot weddings and events and need AF to be fast and reliable. I have had a couple of Tamrons many years ago and the AF wasn't great. I'm not really sure I'd be happy with this lens for that reason.

I'm minded to stick to my original plan and go for a second hand Canon mk 1, which I feel even with whatever limitations it has would do me nicely. The Tamron seems to equal it ( or even beat it in some areas ) on IQ under good conditions and with I imagine considered shooting but in the hurly burly of public gatherings I'm pretty confident the Canon would win it for reliability of getting the shot.

Would you say my reasoning is sound or would you suggest I

Thanks for all help and advice :-)

William

[davidedric]

To complete the picture, is your body FF or APSC?

[wooster]

Doh! Sorry. My body is a 5D mk3 FF

[Adrian]

Given that this is for pro use, and is therefore a tax allowable purchase, I would be inclined to compare the price of a Mk II version from a reputable importer such as HDEW cameras (you have no duty risk) versus a used buy of a Mk I.

24-70 f2.8 Mk II is allegedly a "must have" in the Canon line up for serious use. I happen to have the Mk II, which is an excellent lens, but have never had the Mk 1. I suspect Pro's have managed just fine with it and personally I would not lose much sleep over the probably marginal differences. We have to work with what we've got.

[Donald]

... and I hear the mk 1 isn't absolutely stellar

I have to say that's the first time I've ever heard that. Everything else I read and heard is that the original (MkI) is, arguably, one of the finest lenses ever made. Given my experience of my own one, I'd adopt that view also. I cannot imagine that the Tamron, with respect, would come in to the same quality category.

[rpcrowe]

I used the 24-70mm f/2.8L (Mk-1) for years and the quality was excellent. The only reason I changed was that the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS was a better match for my 1.6x cameras because of the 17mm side...

I don't know if Canon Refurbished items are available in the U.K. but, I have purchased several cameras and a lens as Canon refurbished and the quality was top-notch while the price was really good. If a 24-70mm f/2.8L IS II lens is available in the U.K. as refurbished, it might be something to think about...

[wooster]

Thank you people I am grateful for your responses. I will stick with Canon. I'm still a bit reluctant to splash the cash for the new one though. It hasn't been a very lucrative year for me I'm afraid.

Anyway, I haven't dealt with HDEW cameras before and I assume these are grey imports but I will certainly look into them. Thanks again

[Adrian]

Yes, they are grey imports. The Canon guarantee remains intact.

Grey imports is a label people like to apply in a derogatory way. I have no axe to grind but the fact is the lenses are all exactly the same lenses made in the same place in the same factory by the same people.... wherever they are marketed. The UK mark up is considerable.

I would not import directly from Hong Kong (the usual source) unless I or a colleague was there in person. I have used HDEW because they import into the UK and deal with all customs aspects etc, so you purchase from a UK outfit that you can visit and you get a UK invoice. They are in Surrey, not far from me and are well known to a local camera club. Service has been excellent: we have bought two new high end bodies and two lenses from them. (I bought my 70-200 from a local dealer just to be supportive though).

The risk with so called grey market lenses is far less than bodes, as the Canon guarantee is worldwide for lenses but market specific for bodies I believe. Also the boxes for lenses do not provide any sign of the lens being grey market. In other owrds, in my view it makes no difference at all.

PM me if you want further input.

Adrian

[wooster]

Thank you for your endorsement Adrian. I appreciate it. I don't personally have an ethical problem with grey imports as long as the company pays the legit tax and duty. My only concern is about the warranty. I usually take my stuff to Fixation in London if it needs service or repair and I don't know if this would be the case with HDEW or not.

I have sent them an email asking and will see what they say. I've been confused about Canon's position on lenses for a while. Had a quick look at the warranty info that came with the last lens I purchased and it says that it applies to lenses bought in the UK ? I also understood that their lenses had an international warranty but it is a few years since I dealt with Canon so that might have changed. I had heard from a friend that with the growth of grey importers they were taking a tougher line.

Anyway, thanks again for the heads up about HDEW they do seem to be a pretty solid company

[Adrian]

We have direct experience of this as we have also used HDEW for several business purchases. We did have to have a lens fixed under warranty (noisy mechanism) and Canon did not quibble in the slightest. This was in February this year.

[wooster]

That's great to hear, Adrian. I've checked out the prices again and given what you've just said, I'm tempted to go with the mk 2 from HDEW. Presumably I could either send to Canon or use Fixation for warranty work.

[DanK]

Re warranties: I would check before buying grey market if this is a concern for you. In the US, it does matter. Here is what B&H, one of the largest and most reputable retailers, has on its website about this:

What are the differences as far as a customer is concerned?

In most cases the difference between a "USA" and a "Grey Market," or imported product, is the cost of the item and the terms of the item’s warranty coverage. The products themselves are otherwise identical. As a rule, "Grey Market" items cost less than their USA counterparts. "Grey market" products never qualify for manufacturer's rebate programs.

Re the Tamron competitors: I have the old 28-75, and while I like it a lot, it does focus more slowly than some modern lenses, and it lacks full time manual focusing. However, the new Tamron 24-70 has gotten very good reviews, as far as I have seen, and is an entirely different beast than the older Tamrons. However, that focal length range is not a critical one for me, and I am content enough with my old one that I have not checked this out all that carefully.

[Adrian]

For what it is worth, before dealing with an importer I checked the warranty legalities (I used to be a lawyer). The L series lenses (it may be different for non L for all I know) come with an International warranty that includes the UK and the US. This is quite clear from the lens guarantee. I register all of my equipment (private and business) with Canon UK and have no problem at all when doing this. When we returned the faulty item this year Canon repaired it (or they may even have replaced it : can't quite recall) pronto and without quibbling.

I have also gone so far as to discuss this with Canon. This is because I do not spend all of my time living in the UK: I also have a home elsewhere. And my wife is German and we also spend a good deal of time there. I would not buy equipment that has to be returned to the country of purchase for warranty work or repair. Canon made it clear, in writing that they are a global company and honour their commitment to their product globally. That said, I am sure they do seek to protect their distributors and retailers in major local markets.

There are several UK importers. Some of them have a genuine UK company presence, and take responsibility for delivering stock to you from their UK address against a UK Invoice in compliance with UK law. Others do not. Care is needed. Risk is certainly higher if one buys from an importer as opposed to a retailer, especially so if the importer is acting in an agency capacity only. On the other hand the price differential of typically 20% to 30% can be significant. Beware that import deals never include Canon cash back offers which run occasionally. When I bought my 70-200 f2.8L Canon had a very attractive cash back offer that almost equalised UK retail v importer prices, hence I opted for UK retail (who benefit gross: Canon fund the cash back deals centrally).

Regards

Adrian

[Adrian]

PS: sensible real world review of Mk 1 v Mk II: http://www.canonrumors.com/reviews/r...4-70-f2-8l-ii/

[wooster]

Hello again. Adrian or other legally qualified persons, can you explain this statement on HDEW's site please?

"NTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. Please note that by making a purchase on this website you will be acting as the importer of the product for all purposes including all customs regulations,copyright and trademark laws.You accept that the role of HDEW Cameras is limited to sourcing products and making them them available for you to import directly from the country of origin.By purchasing a product through this
website you authorise us to make arrangements for clearance of customs on your behalf for the products you have ordered."

This appears at the bottom of their store policies and FAQ page. It seems to my untrained eye that they are ducking out of all resonsibilty for paying customs duties and taxes which is a bit worrying. As I say I am not qualified to have an opinion and it might be that everything is fine with this statement but as a layman I'm concerned.

After this I did some more digging and found this post in a birdforum which includes an alleged reply from Canon re HDEW's imported goods status as far as Canon is concerned. I notice it is in regard to a camera cashback issue and lens repairs might well be different although as I mentioned my documentation of ( a recently bought "L" series lens also suggests the warranty is restricted to UK bought items.

It does, however, seem to suggest that at the very least that Canon are taking a pretty hard line about "grey" goods in general. Here's the quoted mail from Canon UK in response to a person's request for cashback on a camera bought from HDEW:

"Received the following today from Canon, I've blocked out the serial number in case you are wondering

"We refer to your recent claim under the Canon Spring Cashback Promotion in respect of a camera purchased from “HDEW Cameras” with serial number XXXXXXXXXX.
We are very sorry to inform you that, although the camera is a genuine Canon camera, it was put on the market outside of Europe and was not intended for the European market. Such products are known as "parallel goods" or "grey market" goods and their sale in the UK is unlawful. Therefore, we are very sorry to say that we cannot accept your promotion claim in respect of this product
The sale of such products in the UK infringe Canon's trade mark rights and risk a number of other legal implications including Customs and tax offences, improper localisation for the UK market (including for example, low grade or unsafe third party UK power cords, no valid UK/European manufacturer’s one year warranty, and ineligibility for European promotions) and breach of European Environmental and Safety requirements.
We have reported this matter to our Anti-Counterfeit Legal Team.
You may use this communication to assist you in obtaining any remedies (including a full refund) from the seller from whom you purchased the product.
If you would like any assistance in identifying a retailer from whom to purchase a legitimate Canon camera then please see our website (link below) for a non-exhaustive list of options (note that only new products are eligible for promotions, not refurbished products from the Canon ebay store):"

I'm not being provocative but I do find the HDEW statement worrying and Canon's mail seems to suggest they are not at all happy with HDEW goods.

If there is a ready explanation I'd be very interested because I was all set to order from them.

Thanks for your time and help with this.

[Adrian]

William, there was a reason why I referred to "agency capacity". No one is going to give you legal advice over the internet for free. It's pretty simple stuff: if you are concerned, buy from a UK shop or Amazon. You could always speak to HDEW yourself and see if they make you feel comfortable. They (and a handful of similar UK based firms) have been going for years now and Canon have not closed them down, nor have HMRC. I think a direct import form Hong Kong is a far bigger risk: eBay for example is full of them selling new goods.

[William W]

The risk with so called grey market lenses is far less than bodes, as the Canon guarantee is worldwide for lenses but market specific for bodies I believe. Also the boxes for lenses do not provide any sign of the lens being grey market. In other owrds, in my view it makes no difference at all.

It used to be.

It is not so in some areas, now. For example Canon Australia - see below extract "Standard Warranty Terms and Conditions", all items:


"3.This warranty is valid only for Products that are purchased new and unused
(a) in Australia or New Zealand; and
(b) sourced from Canon Australia Pty Ltd or Canon New Zealand Ltd (“Canon”).
The Customer must provide the original proof of purchase which demonstrates compliance with the above conditions to receive any services under this warranty."

The boxes and the lenses carry serial numbers - they are distributor specific.

I am not making comment about UK / EU area - just noting that it has changed, where I am.


WW

[William W]

To the original question – and I understand that you have chosen but I might as well provide this info :

Several months ago I bought a new EF 24 to 70 F/2.8L USM, probably one of the last ones around, being sold new - I waited about 5 weeks for the re-seller to find it for me: It came from the USA (so, yes, it was ‘grey’).
I had a clear buying choice between the new Tamron 24 to 70/2.8; the 24 to 70F/2.8L MkII USM or, the lens I ended up buying.

The Tamron VR is good, very good; the lens is sharp; quite useable wide open; most suitable for Weddings; the AF is quite acceptable. The turrets turn opposite to Canon – that’s neither here nor there for me, but worth noting. The zoom turret on the one I used was not smooth.

The Canon 24 to 70/2.8L MkII was wonderful. The lens hood was as useful / useless as mostly all the other lens hoods on Canon Zooms – except, for example, the EF24 to 70/2.8L - where the lens hood is very useful.

For the extra money I would pay, I could not see the value for return in the 24 to 70/2.8MkII, so I chose the original version at a good price and before there were no more to buy.

WW

[wooster]

I've slept on this and given the matter some more thought. I've also read around including this review

http://www.slrlounge.com/canon-24-70...ait-comparison

which was quite an informative and had some examples which showed the real world differences between these two lenses.

My conclusion is that I'm not sure I'd really see the benefit of the newer lens at the moment. Apart from the weight drop which I'd welcome, I suspect that differences would be negligible in terms of the type of output which I'm likely to need. I have ordered a used mk 1 which I feel will meet my needs admirably for the time being.

Thanks for your help people. I'm still interested in HDEW and will probably sound them out at some point.

[TGCorneliussen]

You could anlso try
http://www.flashcamera.co.uk/

Never used them myself as I got an unmatchable offer for the Canon 24-70 2.8 II - but history of being reputable.

They used to trade on ebay with extremely good feedback as well.

The MK II is fantastic btw