How good is the canon 430exII ?

[Raysha]

Greetings,


I couldn't write the proper title sadly since it's gonna be too long...
Anyways, Long story short.

I would appreciate it if you shared your experience or thoughts answering this question "How good or useful can the on camera flash control with a 430ex II can be on different situations ?"

[inkista]

For on-camera flash usage, probably not that much. It's only about four inches between your camera LCD and the flash LCD, and the flash's UI controls will be easier to access and more direct than digging through the camera menus.

However. If you're using cheap ETTL radio triggers, like the Yongnuo YN-622c, then having the capability of menu control is the difference between full control of the remote flash, or only partial control over radio. This can make a lot of difference if you place a flash somewhere not easily accessible (say outside the window of the room you're shooting in to fake sunlight, or fixed up over a basketball court), or inside a modifier that doesn't give you easy access to the back of the flash (e.g., a Westcott Apollo).

I got the YN-622c triggers. Before I got them, I mostly shot off-camera flash with a 5DMkII and a 580EX + YN-560 and manual triggers. With the YN-622c triggers, the only control I had over the 580EX from the camera menus, because it cannot be menu-commanded was sync (firing the flash), auto zoom setting (i.e., changing the focal length of the lens would communicate to the flash), eTTL, HSS, and ONLY ratios for power control. Group, channel, HSS, etc. all had to be set separately on the flash.

I got frustrated with this, and eventually got myself a used 580EXII and YN-568EX to go with my YN-622c triggers. I now have full control of not only the power level (both manual and eTTL ratios), channel, group, zoom (manual or auto), HSS, and eTTL, I can also change the custom functions on a remote flash from the camera back, the mode of the flash, the MULTI settings, etc. etc. Basically, the entire hotshoe connection is communicated over radio between my flash and my camera.

If you don't plan on using this kind of trigger, though, then the utility of the menu-commandability might be a great deal less. And depending on whether you've got a 2012 or later camera body or not (Digic V cameras have a flash control panel earlier cameras don't), it can require quite a bit more digging down into menus than is ideal. However, you also won't have to carry around a cheatsheet for what the custom functions mean.

This is more of a gracenote feature than a have-to-have for most folks.

[Raysha]

I own a 650D... I DO plan buying YN-622c transceivers, so far I intend using one as a transmitter on camera, other one with the 430ex I or II, I believe the YN-560 III can be triggered with only a transmitter since it have built in radio receiver.

I thought the 430ex II could be controlled on camera ONLY with the pop-up flash, judging from what you said it is also possible with the YN-622 transceivers am I wrong ? But, you can't control the YN-568ex on camera with or without triggers correct ?

How far... Or lets say... errr, When it won't be possible for me access the 430ex II on camera?
(the 580ex II and 430ex II are same when it comes to this function I believe)

[inkista]

I own a 650D... I DO plan buying YN-622c transceivers, so far I intend using one as a transmitter on camera, other one with the 430ex I or II,

With the II, you'll have full control of the flash (like me with the 580EXii). With the Mk I, your control will be more limited, without the menu capability: eTTL, ratios, and HSS are pretty much it.

I believe the YN-560 III can be triggered with only a transmitter since it have built in radio receiver.

This is incorrect. The YN-560III also has two built-in "dumb" optical slaves, and a sync port, so it can also be triggered by another flash, sync cable, or the hotshoe. But it is a "manual only" flash--so you will always have to dial the power level in by hand on the flash's LCD, and the fancier features, like HSS, TTL, menu commanding, etc. won't work with it.

I thought the 430ex II could be controlled on camera ONLY with the pop-up flash,

OFF-camera with the pop-up flash, yes. But it can also be triggered by radio triggers (manually); or with full TTL capabilities with TTL-capable radio triggers like the YN-622c. The only built-in triggering capability, however, are a Canon wireless-TTL slave and the hotshoe. You can add radio triggers to nearly any flash.

judging from what you said it is also possible with the YN-622 transceivers am I wrong ?

Yes. The YN-622c triggers are like using the Canon hotshoe, only over radio. They connect to the flash's hotshoe.

But, you can't control the YN-568ex on camera with or without triggers correct ?

Wrong. On-camera, it can be menu-commanded, just like a MkII EX flash. And off camera, if you're using YN-622cs, it can also be menu-commanded. Without the YN-622c (or similar TTL-capable radio triggers), though, you may only be able to tell it to fire. It depends on the triggers you're using. You can, however, nearly always tell it to fire. So, there are varying degrees of "control", here.

How far... Or lets say... errr, When it won't be possible for me access the 430ex II on camera?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Can you clarify?

(the 580ex II and 430ex II are same when it comes to this function I believe)

Camera-menu commanding? Yes. They are both the same. The Mk Is can't do it; the Mk IIs can. There are also Yongnuo, Metz, and Nissin flashes that can be controlled through the Canon camera menus as well.

[Raysha]

With the II, you'll have full control of the flash (like me with the 580EXii). With the Mk I, your control will be more limited, without the menu capability: eTTL, ratios, and HSS are pretty much it.

That means, HSS is possible with over radio eTTL triggers ? omg I didn't expect that !

This is incorrect. The YN-560III also has two built-in "dumb" optical slaves, and a sync port, so it can also be triggered by another flash, sync cable, or the hotshoe. But it is a "manual only" flash--so you will always have to dial the power level in by hand on the flash's LCD, and the fancier features, like HSS, TTL, menu commanding, etc. won't work with it.

Yep, its true that I didn't try it but I am aware that I will have to tweak it manually...
according to this link : http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-yn-560-iii-review/ and many other soruces, I think the flash can be trigger with only a transmitter, would you mind double-checking your info ? I watched ppl doing it on youtube as well...

OFF-camera with the pop-up flash, yes. But it can also be triggered by radio triggers (manually); or with full TTL capabilities with TTL-capable radio triggers like the YN-622c. The only built-in triggering capability, however, are a Canon wireless-TTL slave and the hotshoe. You can add radio triggers to nearly any flash.

"Canon wireless-TTL slave and the hotshoe" ??? Would you mind explaining a litte bit more?

Wrong. On-camera, it can be menu-commanded, just like a MkII EX flash. And off camera, if you're using YN-622cs, it can also be menu-commanded. Without the YN-622c (or similar TTL-capable radio triggers), though, you may only be able to tell it to fire. It depends on the triggers you're using. You can, however, nearly always tell it to fire. So, there are varying degrees of "control", here.

Okay I am getting a little confused here, Does this mean that the YN-568ex can be controlled on camera and on radio SAME as the 430\580ex mark II ?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Can you clarify?

I was pointing to the limitation, the on camera control thing, when it will be not available to me? (other than when trigger with a manual trigger)

Camera-menu commanding? Yes. They are both the same. The Mk Is can't do it; the Mk IIs can. There are also Yongnuo, Metz, and Nissin flashes that can be controlled through the Canon camera menus as well.

Wow, I Thought only the latest canon speedlites can do that.

[inkista]

That means, HSS is possible with over radio eTTL triggers ? omg I didn't expect that !

This is, basically, one of the two main feature that everyone wants with TTL triggers. However, obviously, your camera, flash, and triggers all need to be capable of HSS. The other one is to ability to adjust the power level of the flash remotely from the camera.

Yep, its true that I didn't try it but I am aware that I will have to tweak it manually...
according to this link : http://flashhavoc.com/yongnuo-yn-560-iii-review/ and many other soruces, I think the flash can be trigger with only a transmitter, would you mind double-checking your info ? I watched ppl doing it on youtube as well...

From the flashhavoc review you linked to:

Triggering Mode Button

Pressing the TRIGGER Mode button (the 3rd button in the row of 4) scrolls through the method of triggering the flash, M (or manual) is triggering through the flash foot or PC sync port, S1 is basic optic slave, S2 is basic optic slave with TTL pre-flash ignore, and the last is the built in RX radio receiver mode.

"Canon wireless-TTL slave and the hotshoe" ??? Would you mind explaining a litte bit more?

The hotshoe is your main syncing interface. You connect the foot of the flash to the hotshoe on the camera, and the camera can tell the flash to fire. You can also connect other devices, such as hotshoe-to-PC adapters, "dumb" optical slaves, etc. to fire the flash through something other than a camera, by using the flash's foot.

"Canon wireless-TTL" is the built-in light-based system for some Canon cameras and their flashes to talk to each other wirelessly. The master in your camera's pop-up flash, and the slave modes on the Canon EX speedlites use this protocol. It can communicate nearly all the same stuff the hotshoe does (main exception: 2nd curtain sync). Do not confuse this with the "dumb" slave modes. Wireless eTTL can do HSS/eTTL/remote commanding, etc. "Dumb" optical slaves are "see flash/fire flash". And also do not confuse this with the Canon (radio) RT wireless TTL system that's in the ST-E3-RT and 600EX-RT. That's like wireless TTL, but over radio, rather than light signals, with additional features--it's a new system that just came out in 2012.

The reasons you'd prefer using radio over a light-based signalling system are for range, reliability, and no line-of-sight restrictions. With the light-based systems, the flash's sensor has to "see" the master flash signals. So, like a TV remote, you have to have a clear line-of-sight access between the two. So, say, with your pop-up flash as master, and a remote flash using wireless eTTL, putting the flash behind you could keep the signal from the master from reaching the slave. Particularly if you're outside, rather than indoors with bounce surfaces for the light signal to reflect from.

Okay I am getting a little confused here, ...

Everybody does. There are a LOT of options out there today.

... Does this mean that the YN-568ex can be controlled on camera and on radio SAME as the 430\580ex mark II ?

Yes. That's why it's so popular among those who purchase the YN-622c triggers.

The YN-565EX can also be menu-commanded, and can do all the TTL stuff, but is not HSS-capable, the way the YN-568EX is.

...I was pointing to the limitation, the on camera control thing, when it will be not available to me? (other than when trigger with a manual trigger)

Manual triggering systems is pretty much it. With a 430EXII, any manual triggering systems (like, say RF-603s or Cactus V5 triggers). With a YN-568EX, it would also be the S1 and S2 slave modes, the "SN" Nikon CLS slave mode, or cabling through the sync port, or any manual sync adapter on the hotshoe--these are all "manual only" triggering paths.

[Raysha]

Wow, Nicely explained I was turned down at first bcz only u replied to my thread, but actually u were more than enough.

Thanks a lot man.

One last question (off topic) I don't wanna start another thread.

About high speed photography (freezing motion).

Which one is better? using flashes to freeze motion vs. high speed shutter ?
high shutter is pretty annoying since you will need A LOT of light to expose the subject (unless you are out in sunlight).
what do you think ?

[inkista]

Thanks a lot man.

You're welcome. Even if I am female.

... About high speed photography (freezing motion).

Which one is better? using flashes to freeze motion vs. high speed shutter ?

General wisdom is flash is better for high-speed photography, because a flash burst is much faster.

Your top shutter speed is probably 1/4000s or 1/8000s.

A flash burst at 1/16th power from a midrange flash is about 1/10000s.

At 1/64th power, it's about 1/25000.

Power is kind of a misnomer when it comes to flashes. The amount of light put out by a flash is actually controlled by the duration of the pulse. Full power would be around 1/1000s. So, flash will always be faster than your shutter speed if you're shooting at or below your maximum sync speed.

HSS will let you use a faster shutter speed than a max. power burst, but will lower the power output by two stops, because the drain on the flash is much higher to maintain the pulsed output that's required for HSS, rather than a single flash burst.

[Raysha]

Well when the sex is unknown to a person, he or she thinks the other person is the same as he or she is. (if everyone's doesn't think that way, I do :P)
_____


Interesting... really interesting, flashes are super handy~ those numbers (e.g. At 1/64th power, it's about 1/25000) do you remember any source to them ? (so I could refer to them later on if needed)

For high speed photography I guess Optical triggering isn't what I want (even if the delays are far hardly noticeable) so, I decided to get some radio triggering units.

Plus, do u recall any kind of list or anything similar where I can find which flashes supports on camera controls and which don't?

Another thing, the yongnuo 622n is a transceiver (transmitter + receiver) I expect that it would be more cheaper if I bought (if there was cheaper ones of course) independent TTL supported transmitters and receiver. Any suggestions here ?

About the yongnou YN-560 III since it have built in radio receiver, can any kind of transceiver or transmitter trigger it ?

[inkista]

Well when the sex is unknown to a person, he or she thinks the other person is the same as he or she is. (if everyone's doesn't think that way, I do :P)

Don't worry. It's a mistake that happens often for me online. I'm not upset or surprised at it. I just like teasing people.

those numbers (e.g. At 1/64th power, it's about 1/25000) do you remember any source to them ? (so I could refer to them later on if needed)

Sure. Try this link.

Plus, do u recall any kind of list or anything similar where I can find which flashes supports on camera controls and which don't?

Nope. You'll have to look this up on the individual specs/reviews of the flash model.

Another thing, the yongnuo 622n is a transceiver (transmitter + receiver) I expect that it would be more cheaper if I bought (if there was cheaper ones of course) independent TTL supported transmitters and receiver. Any suggestions here ?

Nope. The YN-622c ARE the cheapest Radio eTTL-supporting triggers out there. The next least expensive units are roughly $100 a piece. The PocketWizard units are $200 a piece. The YN-622c, at $45 apiece, is the lowest-price option out there.

About the yongnou YN-560 III since it have built in radio receiver, can any kind of transceiver or transmitter trigger it ?

No. Only the Yongnuo RF-602 or the RF-603. Otherwise, you'll have to put a receiver in the trigger system of your choice on the flash. None of these triggering systems tends to play well with the others, and in the case of Yongnuo, they don't even make their own triggers compatible with each other. Despite the YN-560III's built-in receiver, you can't use RF-602 receivers with RF-603s.

And they're adding to the mix again. The just announced they're working on (don't even have prototype units, yet, so all pictures are mockups), a special on-camera hotshoe trigger for the YN-560IIIs that can control the power level remotely. They don't even have a name for it, yet, so don't expect to hear an availability date any time soon. Keeping up with Yongnuo models is HARD.

[Raysha]

Thanks a lot :P

I am out of questions now :P

[inkista]

You're welcome.

[Whew. collapses, breathing hard. Need. Water. Rest. Must ice elbow/wrist...]

Yeah. I'm a professional tech writer. I just make it look easy.