How to provide a constructive and effective critique

[Mike Buckley]

Forum interaction should not be classified into 'takers' and 'givers'.
That is not the raison d'etre of a quality forum.

Allocating labels such as “Takers” and “Givers”, places an emotional emphasis on any and all interactions, leveraging pressure to make comment

Completely agreed.

[Mike Buckley]

However, the "sandwich" model described above seems a daft idea

Sorry, Philip, but calling anyone's idea daft seems to be rather intolerant. When someone offers up an idea that might be worthy of our consideration, it's impolite in my mind to call it daft.

[DanK]

I think I will stay clear of the sandwich issue. However, I do have a thought about this:

I am often surprised when I see the number of views a post receives compared to the small number of replies it receives. As Bobo said (before he ceased posting here) there appears to be a lot more "takers" than "givers". I wonder if this situation could be helped by posting a guide to offering constructive criticism,

IMHO, having participated in a variety of forums, I don't see it as a problem that there are a lot of views per comment. I think it is desirable. I participated for a short time in a forum that had guidelines to encourage comments, and the result was a lot of worthless comments that only obscured the valuable ones. People commented whether they had anything useful to say or not, just because they were expected to.

I participate in the forum of a local computer club where commenting (often blunt commenting, sans sandwich) is very much the norm, and I have received a great deal of helpful criticism on it. However, no one on that site comments on more than a small number of photos. I don't often think that I have something particularly constructive to offer. When I do, I offer it. Otherwise, I just enjoy the view and get ideas for future images.

When I do comment, I usually limit my comments to a few specific suggestions or questions.

[Didace]

There is the main Forum Section that is used for critique which has the title, "Photo Commentary & Competitions", i.e. for comments on posted photos.

Philip

Yes. But in practice it seems that it is now predominately posts that are of the "I'd like to share" variety.

[MrB]

It should be very clear from my post that I was expressing an opinion about the sandwich model and its possible origins, not about the person who posted it here or those who agree with it, so it was not "impolite". I then gave a reasoned explanation as to why it is a daft idea, including both a humorous and a serious slant; intolerance is irrational antagonism, so the comment was not "intolerant". It is my opinion that, if one has to walk on eggshells to the extent implied in post #22 while trying to make valid contributions to CiC, there would little point in staying here.

Philip

[Brownbear]

Thank you to all for your very informative and helpful replies.

I am glad that I started this thread because I learned a lot, and I expect others will too.

Because so many people have helped me with their comments and critiques, I have felt compelled to post to try and help others but for future I will stick with what I have time for and what I'm comfortable with. Perhaps in five to ten years when I have more time and knowledge, I will be able to share more with others.

I think of Cambridge as a learning forum, yet I often post just to share and/or for fun. In hindsight, I think it takes away from the learning experience for others, so no more of those posts from me.

Too, many responses to reply to individually but everyone's sharing is truly appreciated. Thank you.

[davidedric]

However, the "sandwich" model described above seems a daft idea, possibly coming from the sort of psychobabble spouted by overpaid consultants leading in-service training courses.

No, not pychobabble but a tried and trusted approach to performance management - where the aim is to improve performance and not simply criticise. Learning and improvement is surely what we are about here.

[davidedric]

I think of Cambridge as a learning forum, yet I often post just to share and/or for fun.

Christina,

I seem to recall another thread about what it's OK to post. I think the majority view was it's OK to post to share or for fun - but make sure you say that's what you are doing, and of course don't overdo it. That's my own view, anyway. Of course, others may differ

Dave

[MrB]

Learning and improvement is surely what we are about here.

Of course, and...

...although it is reasonable to suggest that a positive remark should be included in any C&C, it should be sufficient for that to take the form of a pleasantly worded suggestion as to how to improve a negative aspect of the image...

which, as that statement implies, should be a sufficiently positive learning experience for mature adults - I assume that the vast majority of members are mature adults. I would hope that self-respecting adults should not need, indeed they should not expect, the infantilisation of overt praise both at the beginning and at the end of every post from every contributor to their C&C threads, which is what the sandwich suggests.

And Christina - please keep posting any images that you would like others to see, for whatever reasons. As Dave wrote above, just include your reason(s) for posting, alongside each image.

Philip

[Loose Canon]

Well I’m a little embarrassed Christina! Not to mention amazed! I’m not really used to doing anything right! But I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you saying and I am certainly glad you found our dialogue useful. You have a lot of talent and inquisitiveness and it is a huge pleasure seeing you put it to work.

Based on the supposition that all photos are put here for C&C (though I know not all are) I think that if I am going to offer comments, I would like to offer them in a way that I would want them offered to me.

As Dave aptly mentioned I try to avoid absolutes such as “you should” or “I would like to see”, etc. because quite frankly, who am I to have the unmitigated audacity tell some one what they “should” do with their work. And it really makes no difference whatsoever what “I would like to see” or not see. It is the person who pulled the trigger who makes those calls.

Which doesn’t mean that other possibilities don’t exist, and that is where C&C begins. Ideally, critiques should inspire thought and dialogue creating a pressure-free learning environment; an environment where questions can be asked without fear of embarrassment or verbal assault. If nothing else maybe open our eyes to another way of doing something. Then, informed decisions can be made or possibilities explored.

It would be my intent to extend my utmost respect with all advice I offer. Everyone here deserves that from me at the very least. It isn’t always easy putting yourself and your work out there. And I prefer to think of it as giving advice or putting ideas out there rather than giving a critique. I don’t consider myself qualified to give critiques.

I shoot photos to feed the creative urge I have always had. I just assume we all share that same gene! I don’t have to make a living doing it nor do I necessarily want to. I found out early on that the capacity to spread goodwill and happiness in the world with a camera seems almost unlimited. Knowing this and not trying to do so would seem to me to be the ultimate sin.

So these are a few of the things I try to keep in mind when I address someone’s work.

Of course, I usually fail miserably in living up to these ideals, but I won’t fail to keep trying!

[Mike Buckley]

I would hope that self-respecting adults should not need, indeed they should not expect, the infantilisation of overt praise both at the beginning and at the end of every post from every contributor to their C&C threads, which is what the sandwich suggests.

I respect that that may be what it suggests to you but it doesn't suggest anything of the sort to me whether I am reading or writing a post.

[FootLoose]

I think that being able to say what you like or don't like about a photo -- both technically and aesthetically -- is a part of the process of learning about photography and improving your own skills. I assumed that most people here would share that opinion, and that a simple guide to the elements of a picture that might be considered for comment could help people who are new to photography or are not sure how to approach critique.

[William W]

. . . it [the sandwich model for C&C] doesn't suggest anything of the sort to me whether I am reading or writing a post.

^ Ditto.

The sandwich model is . . . well exactly that - a "model" or a “scaffold” or a “guide”.

If anything is silly, it is a silliness of argument, to take any model or scaffold to an extreme.
To assume it must be employed all the time, for every occasion and without meaningful thought and consideration.
To ridicule that scaffold with an argument based upon it fitting every all and severally each occasion.
To add inane extrapolations of extreme, in the example given, identified by the wonderfully emotive phrase: "infantilisation of overt praise" . . .

Didn't know there was a word "infantilisation" that's a real corker!

WW

[William W]

I think that being able to say what you like or don't like about a photo -- both technically and aesthetically -- is a part of the process of learning about photography and improving your own skills. I assumed that most people here would share that opinion, and that a simple guide to the elements of a picture that might be considered for comment could help people who are new to photography or are not sure how to approach critique.

Agreed, previously, about a guide to picture's elements etc.


Re the underlined section: being able to articulate clearly WHY one likes or dislikes, is even better, for oneself and also for others.

WW

[Arlen]

It's interesting to read the different points of view about what this forum means to different people, and various expectations for the nature of our interactions. For whatever it's worth, I'll add one more take on it.

More so than many web forums, this one has a very wide "variety" of participants. People from lots of different countries and backgrounds. Ample representation of both sexes. And probably most importantly, members at all stages of the their photographic development. Some who are very experienced and accomplished at all aspects of the art/craft, good numbers who have moderate experience and are competent in many aspects of the avocation, and a large contingent of beginners who are striving to learn the basics and a little beyond.

So it's reasonable to assume that what each member needs and hopes to get from his/her fellow members are apt to also vary considerably.

Beginners trying to improve are usually looking mostly for tips and guidance on technique, and encouragement that they are on the right track to increase their skills. As you move up the experience scale, less of that sort of thing is really needed (though we can all benefit from having something pointed out now and then that we missed due to some lapse of mind). Instead the focus becomes more about art than craft, if I may use those terms loosely. Does this image "work"? Does it grab your attention when you see it? Do you spend some time looking at its various details, how the lines flow, how the shapes and tones pull you in? Does it somehow stimulate your pleasure centers? Or on the contrary, is it just another image in the crowd, one of the overwhelming many that you see and pass right on by without thought or reaction? Or maybe it's downright boring?

On these kinds of questions, the feedback and opinions of even rank beginners have value and merit. The purpose of a photograph is to be looked at. By people. If you are a person, and I show you an image that I have spent a lot of time on (maybe too much time), then your reaction matters to me. If you are a beginner and don't feel confident in offering technical advice, don't worry about it; you are an expert on what you like and what you don't. So don't feel like you have nothing of value to offer.

And for me personally, no matter what your level of expertise, feel free to offer any advice you think is warranted, technical or otherwise. I may or may not agree with your recommendations, but if they are offered politely and with helpful intent, I guarantee that I will appreciate the time and effort you spend in making them.

On the other hand, not commenting on an image says something valuable, too. It may be a bit hard to interpret, but in general I take it to mean that people are busy, and this image wasn't interesting enough to spend valuable time on. That's information worth knowing.

As for my own viewing and commenting habits, as much as I like CiC, I don't have time to look at all the posts every day, much less comment on each one. I look at a lot of them, though. I enjoy seeing people's pictures. When there's one that particularly catches my fancy, I take a moment to say so. If the person is asking for advice and others have not already addressed it, or it's something that I know a lot about and feel I can help with, I'll stop and chime in. Occasionally, when I have the time, even at length. I won't follow a set formula for constructing my reply, but I will always strive to be polite and helpful. And I will attempt to tailor my comments to what that particular member seems to need, to the best of my ability to determine.

Final thought: share your pictures with us. Even if it's not something you need help with, who better to show your pictures to than people who like photographs? And you just may inspire us, which may inspire you.

[Brownbear]

Hi Terry,

Please accept my sincere apologies if I embarrassed you in any way but you kind of asked for it . I also think it is ironic that you had a sincere interest in learning more about the topic.

I posted without the link in the first place because I did not wish to embarrass you, but the way you delivered your comments and critique just made me think that everyone could learn something from how you delivered it, including me.

I really like this statement... Thank you for sharing.

Ideally, critiques should inspire thought and dialogue creating a pressure-free learning environment; an environment where questions can be asked without fear of embarrassment or verbal assault. If nothing else maybe open our eyes to another way of doing something. Then, informed decisions can be made or possibilities explored

Greg

Thank you for talking about learning by commenting on others photos... I try to do this and it is helping me learn by analyzing other peoples photos, in an objective manner, which hopefully I will be able to apply to my own photos one day.

PS I think it is especially thoughtful to say something nice about a photo as the person may not realize what they did well and that it is very important to find something nice to say about a photo especially when commenting on a beginners photos if only for the sake of encouragement.

PPS I myself have received tons of very helpful comments and beautifully delivered feedback on this forum from most everyone. It is my first, last and only photo forum and I've learned a lot since joining. I'm continually amazed at how helpful everyone is...

Personally, I am truly appreciative when someone edits one of my photos to show me the possibilities and how I could do it better... One member recently took the time to edit several of my photos to demonstrate post processing possibilities, and I'm continually surprised by how members go out of their way to help others learn.

Thank you.

Well I’m a little embarrassed Christina! Not to mention amazed! I’m not really used to doing anything right! But I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you saying and I am certainly glad you found our dialogue useful. You have a lot of talent and inquisitiveness and it is a huge pleasure seeing you put it to work.

Based on the supposition that all photos are put here for C&C (though I know not all are) I think that if I am going to offer comments, I would like to offer them in a way that I would want them offered to me.

As Dave aptly mentioned I try to avoid absolutes such as “you should” or “I would like to see”, etc. because quite frankly, who am I to have the unmitigated audacity tell some one what they “should” do with their work. And it really makes no difference whatsoever what “I would like to see” or not see. It is the person who pulled the trigger who makes those calls.

Which doesn’t mean that other possibilities don’t exist, and that is where C&C begins. Ideally, critiques should inspire thought and dialogue creating a pressure-free learning environment; an environment where questions can be asked without fear of embarrassment or verbal assault. If nothing else maybe open our eyes to another way of doing something. Then, informed decisions can be made or possibilities explored.

It would be my intent to extend my utmost respect with all advice I offer. Everyone here deserves that from me at the very least. It isn’t always easy putting yourself and your work out there. And I prefer to think of it as giving advice or putting ideas out there rather than giving a critique. I don’t consider myself qualified to give critiques.

I shoot photos to feed the creative urge I have always had. I just assume we all share that same gene! I don’t have to make a living doing it nor do I necessarily want to. I found out early on that the capacity to spread goodwill and happiness in the world with a camera seems almost unlimited. Knowing this and not trying to do so would seem to me to be the ultimate sin.

So these are a few of the things I try to keep in mind when I address someone’s work.

Of course, I usually fail miserably in living up to these ideals, but I won’t fail to keep trying!

[Mike Buckley]

Hi Terry,
...if I embarrassed you in any way but you kind of asked for it

Good for you, Christina! Terry recently made a suggestion to me requiring that I spend money. He even sent me a special note once the product became in stock. So, I spent the money. Now that my net worth has decreased thanks to him, it's absolutely fine with me if he is embarrassed.

[Brownbear]

Arlen, thank you for taking the time to share your insight with others. Beautifully stated.

Mike, I'm truly sorry to hear that Terry may be trying to lead you down a path that could possibly lead to financial insolvency but I'm not getting involved.

[geoz]

However, the "sandwich" model described above seems a daft idea, possibly coming from the sort of psychobabble spouted by overpaid consultants leading in-service training courses. Firstly and frivolously, it seems to me that most people would like the contents of their sandwiches to be at least as delicious as the bread that encases them. Secondly and seriously, although it is reasonable to suggest that a positive remark should be included in any C&C, it should be sufficient for that to take the form of a pleasantly worded suggestion as to how to improve a negative aspect of the image. If someone is too fragile to accept that, it would seem that they need help beyond the scope of CiC.

Philip

I've seen it as a technique taught in several scenarios used for evaluations, including employee performance reviews. It is rather gentle, but in a world-wide multi-cultural forum its a safe approach when you don't know someone. In any case it isn't a hard and fast rule. I'm from (New) Jersey where a simple "That sucks." is usually sufficient.

George

[Shadowman]

How much do you value or do you even solicit comments or criticism from someone who does not have a photography or artistic background? Would you take the advise of your forum member over that of a potential client. Would you even allow a potential customer to see two different versions of the same image, one your original composition and another utilizing edits received from the critique of forum members?