Dark Birds over Water - Matrix or Spot Metering

[Brownbear]

Thank you Colin for the detailed information.

Joe, yes, I can see that in my black birds which leads to my next question.

Can I fix the grey in the spot metered birds with post processing? And if yes, how? Just by decreasing the exposure? For some reason I think it would be easier to fix the grey (with less noise), if I could figure out how to do it properly, than lightening shadows?

Thank you.

[jprzybyla]

If you have captured the birds in RAW format I would say yes. JPG would be questionable as to how much you can change. If RAW I would lower the exposure until the black color is what you want. Then examine the bird to see what additional work may need to be done with the Adjustment Brush.

[Brownbear]

Hi Joe,

Yes, indeed I photographed in raw. I gave up jpegs a couple of weeks ago so I could see a more accurate representation of clipping, which is a big step for me.

That is great to hear and I will try it out on the crow as practice for the Cormorant in Flight that I would like to capture one day. And I will continue to practice with crows... One day, perhaps a few years from now...

If you have captured the birds in RAW format I would say yes. JPG would be questionable as to how much you can change. If RAW I would lower the exposure until the black color is what you want. Then examine the bird to see what additional work may need to be done with the Adjustment Brush.

[Brev00]

I completely agree. Spot metering the black of the bird has led the camera to overexpose and wash out the black birds. Which is why I suggested the opposite: spot meter the brightest element in the scene and, to avoid grays again, add +2 ev. You can probably do the same thing with the blacks adding -2 ev but I rarely go that way. Since the sky is often the brightest element in a scene and I value getting the sky exposed well (actually overexposed as Colin suggested), that is what I spot meter. It is pretty big, too. Hard to miss. Exposing for the sky is espoused by Bryan Peterson in the popular tome Understanding Exposure. That can be the subject of some disagreement and one needs to follow rules only as long as they are working for you. I just do not get such washed out blacks when I use my technique. The real issue for me with spot metering the blacks is that you are going to lose the sky which you did in some of these pics. I find if I prioritize the sky, the rest seems to fall in to place. Unless it doesn't. Happy there are histograms.

[Brownbear]

Thank you for sharing. I will try your method next time around and check out that book.

I realize that my crow is overexposed but the bird itself is not clipped (in the photo with the white sky) and there is no clipping in the photo with the grey sky, and it has more detail than the matrix metered shots.

I am also trying to learn to expose the the right so I can preserve detail in black birds with the eventual goal of then learning to process my raw photos to bring the exposure down and keep the detail in the bird. I thought this was better then trying to lighten dark shadows or save clipped blacks. ?

It looks like this will be a lifelong experiment for me.

I completely agree. Spot metering the black of the bird has led the camera to overexpose and wash out the black birds. Which is why I suggested the opposite: spot meter the brightest element in the scene and, to avoid grays again, add +2 ev. You can probably do the same thing with the blacks adding -2 ev but I rarely go that way. Since the sky is often the brightest element in a scene and I value getting the sky exposed well (actually overexposed as Colin suggested), that is what I spot meter. It is pretty big, too. Hard to miss. Exposing for the sky is espoused by Bryan Peterson in the popular tome Understanding Exposure. That can be the subject of some disagreement and one needs to follow rules only as long as they are working for you. I just do not get such washed out blacks when I use my technique. The real issue for me with spot metering the blacks is that you are going to lose the sky which you did in some of these pics. I find if I prioritize the sky, the rest seems to fall in to place. Unless it doesn't. Happy there are histograms.

[pnodrog]

Why spot meter? In the lighting conditions I have seen in the bulk of bird photographs it would be an error prone gamble and if the bird is moving about as useful as trying spot metering on a galloping zebra. Spot metering is a great technique for static objects under difficult lighting. Unless you are using exposure lock spot metering is also dictating composition.

If the lighting is relatively constant the most important thing is to work out the appropriate exposure compensation with reference to the birds colour and the direction of illumination. Once the compensation has been set just stick to matrix metering or set the camera to manual mode as Colin suggested. Certainly a photographer needs to be aware of changes to lighting and also adjust if subject moves into shade.

Personally I use aperture priority with matrix metering about 70% of the time changing exposure compensation as required and the rest of the time manual mode using whatever metering method is appropriate for the scene or subject.

[Brownbear]

Hi L. Paul,

I've been experimenting with spot metering on black birds that are big enough to meter off of, because my shots of a cormorants and guillemot pigeons (black birds) using matrix metering were not showing enough detail in the bird, and spot metering seems to bring out the detail in the bird. Therefore, I have been thinking that it spot metering is a good method to use on dark birds. And also because there is less noise when you decrease exposure then when you lighten shadows.

Yes, the exposure/focus lock is dictating composition but when the bird is in flight I don't have much control over composition and I have my camera set to center point focus.

I am going to have to experiment a little longer, perhaps alternating between spot/matrix metering on black birds so I can see and learn the differences.

Thank you as always for sharing and some great advice.

Why spot meter? In the lighting conditions I have seen in the bulk of bird photographs it would be an error prone gamble and if the bird is moving about as useful as trying spot metering on a galloping zebra. Spot metering is a great technique for static objects under difficult lighting. Unless you are using exposure lock spot metering is also dictating composition.

If the lighting is relatively constant the most important thing is to work out the appropriate exposure compensation with reference to the birds colour and the direction of illumination. Once the compensation has been set just stick to matrix metering or set the camera to manual mode as Colin suggested. Certainly a photographer needs to be aware of changes to lighting and also adjust if subject moves into shade.

Personally I use aperture priority with matrix metering about 70% of the time changing exposure compensation as required and the rest of the time manual mode using whatever metering method is appropriate for the scene or subject.

[Mike Buckley]

using matrix metering were not showing enough detail in the bird, and spot metering seems to bring out the detail in the bird.

I wonder if it will be helpful for you to analyze those observations and break them down into detail that is more informational. I wonder about it because you seem to be coming back to the same issues and describing them in the same way. Nobody knows better than I about experiencing brain lock, so I completely understand if this is now happening to you.

Rather than saying that matrix metering doesn't show enough detail in the bird, think of it differently: matrix metering, when used the way you used it, doesn't show enough detail in the bird. That's because you didn't adjust the exposure to sufficiently reveal the detail.

Similarly, rather than saying that spot metering brings out the detail in the bird, think of it that spot metering, when used the way you used it, brings out that detail.

If you change the way you use matrix metering, you can achieve your desired results. As other people who use spot metering (I don't) have suggested, matrix metering may be easier for most people to use in your situation. Consider trying matrix metering again but adjusting the exposure once you determine from your histogram that it's not as you want it. Once you get matrix metering to achieve the desired results with one kind of bird, it seems logical to me that it will be easy to achieve the desired results with all kinds of birds. Intuitively, that would not seem to be the case when using spot metering for the reasons that others have explained.

[Brownbear]

Mike,

Yes, I think that I will have to do just that. I can see from the replies and information that I may have reached the erroneous conclusion that spot metering worked better but that it just may be that I have not been using matrix metering at its best.

At this moment, I'm a bit confused and overloaded with information and uncertain about the best metering method to use when... so I will just have to read more on the subject, revisit all the replies here and continue to experiment with metering, with the exposure pushed to the right, so I can learn and see the true difference between the two methods.

Thank you.

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

Consider the following basic principles when using the three types of metering:

Spot Metering: Great when you can accurately identify a spot of neutral luminosity and easily place the camera's point on that spot. Otherwise, adjust the exposure as needed. Primary disadvantage: difficult to use on rapidly moving subjects and/or if you're as bad as I am at accurately identifying neutral luminosity.

Center-weighted metering: Great when you accurately identify that the center of the frame includes a sufficiently large area containing neutral luminosity. Otherwise, adjust the exposure as needed. (To maximize your effectiveness, you need to learn from your camera's manual exactly how the camera analyzes each area of the frame and how large the center area is when using center-weighted metering.)

Matrix (evaluative) metering: Great when neither of the other two metering methods quickly and easily renders the desired results (which for me is almost all of the time). Even though the entire frame is being analyzed by the camera, there still has to be a sufficiently large area containing neutral luminosity. Otherwise, adjust the exposure as needed.

Notice that the one phrase -- adjust the exposure as needed -- applies to using all three metering methods. You simply can't get away from that.

[chauncey]

Christina, these guys are all correct, as am I when I've said that I don't meter at all. We have been at this long enough that this sort of thing is second nature.

There are basic guidelines to point you in the right direction and it's contingent on you to take those guidelines and adapt them to whatever you might be comfortable in doing. Learn your gear and how it works in your hands.

You, as the rest of us have, will need to learn to crawl, then walk, and finally be able to run with this craft. It can be/will be frustrating at times but, to be philosophical for a moment, you will learn more from failures than successes. Those failures continually remind us that there is always more to learn. You will not find any of us here that has a printable/hang-able image every time we squeeze that shutter.

Lastly, do not quit, for the journey is much more rewarding than is the destination.

[rpcrowe]

I am a great advocate of letting the camera do as much of the exposure calculations as possible. However when birds are flying by changing exposure value backgrounds, the camera metering will constantly be trying to match the exposure for the background.

However, if you use substitute metering with manual exposure, the exposures will not be hopping around and so much influenced by the background.

A substitute metering subject could be the grass or other foliage. Once you determine the exposure for that subject, you have a "starting" exposure for your birds.

Two advocates of substitute metering are Bryan Peterson, author of, "Understanding Exposure, 3rd Edition: How to Shoot Great Photographs with Any Camera" and Jim Nieger, Florida bird photographer and bird photography instructor.

After you get the "starting exposure" you then need to adjust your exposure for the birds you are shooting. Darker birds need more exposure while white birds require less exposure. Note, this is opposite of how you would compensate for the different toned birds when using reflective metering off the birds. The reflective meter will attempt to turn both blacks and whites into gray and you need to increase the exposure for the white and reduce it for the black.

The amount you need to increase or decrease the exposure depends on the color of the bird and the quality of the light. As explained by Jim Nieger for shooting white birds such as egrets, "If it’s just after sunrise and the light is very soft, the amount to decrease exposure may be only 1/3 of a stop. If we photograph the same bird at high noon, the amount we need to decrease exposure by will likely be as much as 2 stops."

I would like to offer my own take on substitute metering. An grey metering target will provide a standard exposure for the light in which you are shooting, as long as the subject will be in the same light as the card. However, everything could be simplified by using an incident light meter which "should" give you approximately the same exposure as metering off grass or a gray target.

Just remember that your exposure compensations are opposite from metering off the bird. Dark = increase exposure, white = decrease exposure.

[Brownbear]

Thank you, Mike for a great summary reference. Very helpful.

Chauncey, thank you for your words of encouragement and great advice... I want to run but I understand that some things will force me to crawl. You don't meter at all? Which means you take photos of white egrets over water and you just know right off the bat what to set your camera at for the best exposure?


All of this began because of the challenges I experience with photographing dark birds (black or dark brown) floating or flying over ocean waters. (and trying to manage to capture nicely exposed ocean waters with a natural colour) I wonder if someone can help me understand my metering choices in terms of my goal which is to photograph dark birds over water, well.

Scenario 1

In the early morning light both the bird (and the bird is a small portion of the scene) and the ocean waters are dark, so with matrix metering my camera wants to overexpose the entire scene simply because matrix metering evaluates the entire scene... So I dial in negative exposure compensation and the whole scene is darker including my bird which is likely now too, dark...

If however, I choose to spot meter on the dark bird on the dark water I can expose for the bird keeping the detail in the bird, and keep the rich colours of the water.

Scenario 2 (An hour later with brighter light)

The dark bird is flying over the ocean waters which are brightly lit by sunlight... Using matrix metering my bird ends up being overexposed because matrix metering evaluates the light on the water... So I dial in positive compensation and my water is even more blown.

Therefore I try spot metering on the dark bird to ensure that the bird is properly exposed, the meter evaluates the bird only, so I should end up with a nicely exposed bird and richer (not as blown) coloured water. Blown water is impossible to fix.

Can someone help me understand what I am trying to do, and correct anything I have misunderstood?

Thank you.

[Brownbear]

Thank you Richard, I have tried substitute metering a couple of times and will try again. I appreciate the book recommendations as I like to read.

Could you look at my question below and see if you can answer it, for the best exposure results of the bird and water (if possible).

Thank you.

I am a great advocate of letting the camera do as much of the exposure calculations as possible. However when birds are flying by changing exposure value backgrounds, the camera metering will constantly be trying to match the exposure for the background.

However, if you use substitute metering with manual exposure, the exposures will not be hopping around and so much influenced by the background.

A substitute metering subject could be the grass or other foliage. Once you determine the exposure for that subject, you have a "starting" exposure for your birds.

Two advocates of substitute metering are Bryan Peterson, author of, "Understanding Exposure, 3rd Edition: How to Shoot Great Photographs with Any Camera" and Jim Nieger, Florida bird photographer and bird photography instructor.

After you get the "starting exposure" you then need to adjust your exposure for the birds you are shooting. Darker birds need more exposure while white birds require less exposure. Note, this is opposite of how you would compensate for the different toned birds when using reflective metering off the birds. The reflective meter will attempt to turn both blacks and whites into gray and you need to increase the exposure for the white and reduce it for the black.

The amount you need to increase or decrease the exposure depends on the color of the bird and the quality of the light. As explained by Jim Nieger for shooting white birds such as egrets, "If it’s just after sunrise and the light is very soft, the amount to decrease exposure may be only 1/3 of a stop. If we photograph the same bird at high noon, the amount we need to decrease exposure by will likely be as much as 2 stops."

I would like to offer my own take on substitute metering. An grey metering target will provide a standard exposure for the light in which you are shooting, as long as the subject will be in the same light as the card. However, everything could be simplified by using an incident light meter which "should" give you approximately the same exposure as metering off grass or a gray target.

Just remember that your exposure compensations are opposite from metering off the bird. Dark = increase exposure, white = decrease exposure.

[chauncey]

Christina...don't you remember this...

"A couple of years ago when I was trying to learn all that exposure nonsense I kept believing that there had to be an easier way...well bucko, there is and it's called live view. Chimp your image in LV with your RGB histogram showing>input 2 of the 3 wanted/needed camera settings and push that histogram toward the right, but not touching the right side, using the third setting. Oh, because that histogram is jpeg based, you must first neutralize, base out, all of your "picture style" settings that you may have set for your jpeg images.
I use this technique all the time and I take the time to repeat if the light changes. Also, when I'm shooting a black dog/white snow scenario, I'll shoot a properly exposed virgin image of the snow followed by properly exposed dog romping around and blend them later in PS.
Yeah, it's sounds complicated, but rapidly becomes second nature."

[Mike Buckley]

Scenario 1

with matrix metering...I dial in negative exposure compensation and the whole scene is darker including my bird which is likely now too, dark...

If however, I choose to spot meter on the dark bird on the dark water I can expose for the bird keeping the detail in the bird, and keep the rich colours of the water.

I gather from your second comment that you feel that it's not possible to achieve the same basic exposure when using matrix metering as when using spot metering. That's likely because you're decreasing the exposure too much when using matrix metering and exposure compensation.

Try this: Place a black object (perhaps foam core) on the grass in your yard. Compose the scene as you would compose a dark bird floating on water. Meter the scene using matrix metering and various degrees of exposure compensation, adjusting it in increments of no more than 1/2 EV. Then meter it using spot metering and similarly adjusting exposure compensation. The purpose of this exercise is to display that you can achieve the same or at least similar results using either metering method. Once you have done that, it's a matter of determining which method is easiest to use when photographing a moving subject in changing light conditions.

Scenario 2

Using matrix metering my bird ends up being overexposed because matrix metering evaluates the light on the water... So I dial in positive compensation and my water is even more blown.

Once you have determined that the bird is overexposed, you should dial in negative compensation, not positive compensation. Dialing in positive compensation blows both the water and the bird.

My guess is that you meant to write that your bird was underexposed, so you compensated by increasing the exposure that led to the water being blown.

Conduct an exercise that is similar to the one that I explained above. This time place the black object on a lightly colored sheet. Best to do this in your back yard so people don't see you in your front yard and come to the conclusion that you have gone wacko. Meter the scene using both metering modes and incremental degrees of exposure compensation.

Summary
I think it was Joe who wrote much earlier in the thread that you are not going to get the ideal exposure in this situation in the camera. He is absolutely correct in that situation that your goal is to achieve an exposure that is "good enough." The various parts of the scene can then be adjusted during post-processing.

[Mike Buckley]

Chauncey,

Christina uses a Nikon D7100. Its manual provides no indication that it is possible to review the histogram while using Live View. The same is true for my Nikon D7000 and Nikon D5100.

[Brownbear]

Chauncey,

Yes, I remember now that you have reminded me of it. My camera does have live view (I just checked the manual) but it seems to have several limitations including not being able to view your composition through the view finder, available with only certain focus modes and I don't think I can view the histogram (as per Mike)... I will check it out later.

Yes, I'm just trying to minimize post-processing needs. I find it impossible to select around a wildlife subject in a quality manner but perhaps with more time and practice.

Mike,

Thank you. I will try both of those exercises, including the white sheet no matter what my neighbours may think of me.

Yes, I meant that....
My guess is that you meant to write that your bird was underexposed, so you compensated by increasing the exposure that led to the water being blown.

And yes, I am learning that it is almost impossible to expose perfectly for the bird and the water, and that compromises need to be made, and as Joe states, adjusted in post processing...


But my experiment and theory is (perhaps was) is

If I use spot metering on a black bird and adjust the compensation to expose for the bird properly the effect of over or underexposing the water should be less than seen with matrix metering because spot metering on the dark bird measures the light on just on the bird, and the exposure adjustments whether + or - are seen primarily in the bird (spot metering) whereas in matrix metering the exposure adjustments are seen in the entire scene so if I increase the exposure the water is blown and if I decrease the exposure the water is dark.

Does my theory valid or is it something I dreamed up in my head?

Thank you.

[Mike Buckley]

Sorry, Christina, but your theory isn't at all valid and I'll try to explain why. The following assumption in your theory is incorrect: spot metering on the dark bird measures the light on just on the bird, and the exposure adjustments whether + or - are seen primarily in the bird

The exposure compensation is applied to the entire scene, not just the bird.

So, let's start over so you understand exposure in the camera. You already know that the three factors are the aperture, shutter and ISO settings. Notice that all of those settings affect the entire scene (not just the bird). Similarly, when you use exposure compensation, it also affects the entire scene. That's because it compensates by adjusting either the ISO, the aperture or the shutter (depending on the various camera settings and the available light), which as already mentioned affect the entire scene.

To clarify all of that, assume you have disabled Auto ISO and enabled ISO 100 and spot metering that results in a shutter speed of 1/60 and an aperture of f/8. If you are using aperture-priority mode and you dial in +1 EV exposure compensation, the shutter will be changed from 1/60 to 1/30.

Now assume that instead of using spot metering, you used matrix metering resulting in the same shutter speed of 1/60 and the same aperture of f/8. Dialing in the same +1 EV exposure compensation will again result in the shutter being changed from 1/60 to 1/30.

As you can see, the entire scene is being affected when you use exposure compensation and it is being affected in the exact same way regardless of how your starting combination of ISO 100, aperture at f/8 and shutter speed of 1/60 were initially determined.

Make sense?

By the way, it's fine to make theories but you should test them. Doing so will help you understand how your camera works. In this case, you could have placed your camera on a tripod and spot metered a particular object in the scene. You could have noted the three settings that affect exposure, dialed in the exposure compensation, and then noted the changed settings. You could have then used matrix metering and done the same thing. You would have noted that, unlike your theory, the exposure settings would have changed exactly the same way once you dialed in the exposure compensation regardless of the metering method being used at the time.

The reason I like the idea of creating situations that test your theories is that you might gain command of your camera more readily than any amount of reading will provide. That's because reading about your camera is not the same as using your camera and noting the changes. This isn't to say that reading about your camera isn't helpful, but in the end using the camera and noting what happens might help everything sink in.

[chauncey]

My humble apologies...I made the unwarranted assumption that what was available in my Canon would be duplicated in Nikon. I will check your cameras abilities next time. Listen to the Nikon guys.

BTW, when you have the focusing issue checked...tell them to check the body with the lens as a unit.