Panning Exercise

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

And thank you so much for undertaking this endeavour and allowing me to be part of it. I have learned a lot from your project.

Yes, I can see that and it confirms what I have experienced during my attempts.

Perhaps I will try shutter priority next time around and just go with the the aperture the camera chooses. Or just choose a larger aperture on manual.

I have tried close in shots, as has been suggested where I was within 5 meters of the horse with a shutter speed of 125-160 and my backgrounds were decidedly not blurred or streaky enough. Even with a SS of 60 this close in they were blurred but not enough. The best backgrounds I have achieved so far are with my 300 mm lens (vs 105 mm lens) at a distance of about 10 meters (best guess) and the slow shutter speed)

My thought process has been that a larger aperture would result in a more blurred streaked background, but I am going to try a larger aperture next time around.

The one thing that I have noted that I am doing differently is that I am using continuous burst mode, and I think I will try the single shot thing a try even if it means I only have two tries per race...

Hopefully I will have a little luck on my side manage the shot I am striving for, even if it is just a little bit better during my next two attempts. If not, for sure by next summer!

PS Perhaps you should post your beautiful cyclist image in a new thread with a summary of all the info for others to learn from... ie; so it is not so confusing for others.

Christina,

Thanks for complimenting my cyclist image.

I think this is an example more closely related to your horses than the car ones have been as the cyclist has similar moving parts to his body.

Taking the final image No 5 see how noticeable the difference in sharpness caused by the motion in his left foot between the top of the sock and the toe. A faster shutter speed would have reduced this but at the cost of freezing the background more. A slower shutter speed would have increased it but blurred the background slightly more, all a compromise.

Another area I have been thinking about is aperture and its affect on the background assuming we have it so that the entire subject (horse, car, cyclist) is within the DoF. Using a wide aperture to reduce DoF with the intention of focus blurring the background may not be the best way to go. It is the objects farthest away from the subject that will give the longest motion blur streaks on your finished image and if these are already focus blurred you can not change a total blur into a streak.

Would be interesting to hear other views on this theory.

Grahame

[Stagecoach]

Virginia,

I too have looked closely again at that bus shot with the fuzzy near mirror and analysed it in the same way as Bill did with the numberplate. I now believe it is caused by being out of focus as neither vertical or horizontal edges show anything but equal softness.

I am going to measure the distances next time at the spot to confirm but still pretty sure it 'should' have been well within the acceptable DoF range. Another theory is that the focus was changing substantially during the period that the shutter was open?

Grahame

[Stagecoach]

Christina,

I have to go out now but intend to come back later and suggest that those that say to get in closer to your subject to achieve what you are after are giving you totally incorrect advice

Grahame

[Brownbear]

Reading this thread and trying to sort through all the info is making my head hurt... just a little but I am most appreciative of all the comments, calculations, examples and ideas shared. Most of all I wish to extend a great BIG thank you to Grahame for starting this project and coming through with a beautiful result to share with others, and for allowing me to be part of this thread so I can try, as impossible as it may seem to apply the knowledge to my horse shots.

My apologies in advance if I have missed any questions or points.

Lex

Thank you for sharing your technique using flash. At this time my skills using flash are zero, ie; my two tries at panning have afforded me more experience than using flash and but I will keep this in mind for future. It's a brilliant photo, just not what I am trying to do right now.


Andre, thank you for sharing your photos, ideas and techniques that I will learn about one day. Truly appreciated.

However, the reason that I took the time to post my horse photos was to demonstrate that during my attempts to date, the best, blurred streaky backgrounds that I have managed to date have all been with a super slow shutter speed, for the close in shots (less than 5 meters) and also for the far shots using a long lens. As well, the shots with the longer lens where I am farther away have the best backgrounds. While I have no explanation to back that up, I can see it in the images.

I also included links from professional horse race and rodeo photographers who all use super slow shutter speeds in order to achieve the blurred background I am striving for. While I have not managed a sharp, super in-focus shot yet, I have managed the blurred streaky background and so/so focus. The best backgrounds are with a SS of 40-60 and although seemingly impossible with my experience in panning, I am going to try two more times this year, and if not well I have all next summer to try. In my mind, all the information I have read confirms that a SS of 40-60 is the shutter speed of choice for what I am trying to achieve. Grahame's project also supports the slow shutter speed which is in turn supported by Ted's calculations, and it is the best information I have to date...

I have never heard of tripping the shutter, but thank you for sharing that and also thank you to Robert for the link. I have bookmarked these for future reference.

There are no night races and flash is not permitted. My night photos are pretty sad and I have no experience with flash (or flash equipment) and the photo I envision is a day photo. Although I appreciate all the information and suggestions, I will save them for future.

Manfred and Andre... Do you think I should try single shot auto focus and just pan to the best of my ability, as opposed to continuous auto focus combined with panning.

Ted, thank you for your calculations which do confirm my experience thus far with the best streaky blurred backgrounds.


Thank you to all that replied, especially to Grahame... Grahame you may have to wait until next summer for my horse shot, but I will try my best in the next two races to manage one...

[William W]

Hi Grahame: I was careful not to suggest canning Burst Mode altogether - that's why I mentioned the rhythm of Subject Motion.
I don't really photograph cars, but if I did I think that Burst Mode on the whole MIGHT be of MORE benefit than less. I don't really photograph Race Horses either, but on the whole I would think that Burst Mode would be of LESS benefit than more.

I do take a lot of (competition) swimming photos, and, whilst only a few are panning, ALL Swimming Subjects have a rhythm - and I don't use Burst Mode.


However just thinking about cars . . .

The major consideration for using BURST MODE for a PANNING SHOT: is the ACTUAL FRAME RATE of the BURST compared to the motion (speed) of the Subject.

It is logical that, using a 1 Series Canon with a max frame rate of 8+ per second, that for a Boxing Match firing a burst would be exceptional useful - but it also would be logical that to get the ultimate shot of the face distortion and of the knock out punch to make a quick frame rate (burst rate) useful - the SHUTTER SPEED would need to be quite fast.

On the other hand: panning (by definition) requires careful consideration of the SHUTTER SPEED and by definition the SHUTTER SPEED is almost always quite SLOW.

It doesn't take Einstein to work out, that, using a SHUTTER SPEED of 1/30s (as an example) it is going to be impossible to get very fast Frame Rate (burst rate) . . . and at a slow frame rate, the Subject may well have moved quite a way beyond "The Shot" which was required.


***

Afterthought:

Perhaps, (I am thinking of Photographers that really do know what they are doing) it is that Burst Mode is used often for Car Racing Photography Generally - but NOT used that often for the Panning Shots?

Perhaps if the pan is along a good long bit of straight and the camera in at or about 90 degrees to the car it would serve no DIS-benefit but on a corner etc, I would reckon that one shot and good timing would serve better.

I don't know for sure but it seems reasonable on first thinking about it.


WW

[William W]

Christina: Thanks for answering. I didn't think that Flash would be allowed at 5mtrs to the Race Horse.

WW

[Brownbear]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for asking a question I could answer... No flash is allowed anywhere on the racetrack and the rule makes sense to me as I don't think it would be good for the horses.

Also thank you for sharing the info on burst mode, I am going to try single shot auto focus next time. Makes sense even if it means only two tries per race.

Christina: Thanks for answering. I didn't think that Flash would be allowed at 5mtrs to the Race Horse.

WW

[xpatUSA]

Reading this thread and trying to sort through all the info is making my head hurt...

An opportunity missed, Christina . . . you could have said "making my head spin", ho ho.

I'll get my coat . . .

[Rob Ekins]

OOPS! I would suggest you do yourself a favour and learn something from Neil by studying his tutorials.

Andre,
I did look over his site, doing so was in fact the impetus to suggest the strobist site..


Robbie.

[Brownbear]

Yes, indeed...

Actually, I'm thinking that there has to be a moment in time, when the horses head is moving the least, likely when it is straining at the bit, so I will try see if I can pick out that moment.

An opportunity missed, Christina . . . you could have said "making my head spin", ho ho.

I'll get my coat . . .

[xpatUSA]

I too have looked closely again at that bus shot with the fuzzy near mirror and analysed it in the same way as Bill did with the numberplate. I now believe it is caused by being out of focus as neither vertical or horizontal edges show anything but equal softness.

I am going to measure the distances next time at the spot to confirm but still pretty sure it 'should' have been well within the acceptable DoF range. Another theory is that the focus was changing substantially during the period that the shutter was open?

Grahame

I've just remembered that I have a free analysis (or, should I say analysis) program called ImageJ, just right for this kind of stuff:



Upper plot is for a vertical 'slice' at the top half of the near mirror support at the bus body.

Middle plot is for a horizontal 'slice' at the front edge of the near mirror.

Noteworthy is the difference in slope between the vertical versus the horizontal, so, there is indeed motion blur.

Lower plot is for the front edge of the furthest mirror (see yellow line).

Obviously less motion blur at the far mirror. On an angular speed basis, I comment that the near mirror is significantly closer to the observer (camera) than the far one. Therefore significantly different angular speeds. Additionally, if the bus is on a curve in the road, that difference is amplified by the the near mirror going physically faster than the far one, relative to the observer.

ImageJ . . an excellent free tool for peepers!

[Brownbear]

I gave panning the horse races another try yesterday.

Shutter speeds of 1/40 worked best for the blurred streaked background both close in and further away but further away blurred out the background better even though it seems contrary to instinct. I tried SS of 80 and 125 and they didn't work for the background I was trying for

Still far from perfect but I think it shows improvement in that the background is definitely blurred and streaked (albeit a bit blotchy) and I managed focus on the horses eye. I also clipped the reds but I was just concentrating on trying to grab focus versus my usual constant setting adjustments. I will share a few more in a different thread.

Here is one of my better shots from yesterday...



Shutter priority, SS 40 F32 iso 280

[nimitzbenedicto]

I gave panning the horse races another try yesterday.

Shutter speeds of 1/40 worked best for the blurred streaked background both close in and further away but further away blurred out the background better even though it seems contrary to instinct. I tried SS of 80 and 125 and they didn't work for the background I was trying for

Still far from perfect but I think it shows improvement in that the background is definitely blurred and streaked (albeit a bit blotchy) and I managed focus on the horses eye. I also clipped the reds but I was just concentrating on trying to grab focus versus my usual constant setting adjustments. I will share a few more in a different thread.

Here is one of my better shots from yesterday...



Shutter priority, SS 40 F32 iso 280

Hi Christina,

Thanks for the info about shutter speeds.

[Shadowman]

I gave panning the horse races another try yesterday.

Shutter speeds of 1/40 worked best for the blurred streaked background both close in and further away but further away blurred out the background better even though it seems contrary to instinct. I tried SS of 80 and 125 and they didn't work for the background I was trying for

Still far from perfect but I think it shows improvement in that the background is definitely blurred and streaked (albeit a bit blotchy) and I managed focus on the horses eye. I also clipped the reds but I was just concentrating on trying to grab focus versus my usual constant setting adjustments. I will share a few more in a different thread.

Here is one of my better shots from yesterday...



Shutter priority, SS 40 F32 iso 280

Very good effort.

[xpatUSA]

Nice shot, has the ambience of the race. Wish I had your patience!

[Brownbear]

Thank you Victor and Ted... Although the slower shutter speed is producing the best background I am going to have to find some kind of middle ground and try a faster shutter speed to freeze the motion of the other riders and horses, just a little more. Whether it will be a SS of 60,80 or 125 I still don't know.

[TonyW]

After having had a go at panning, I think the all the issues can be sorted out relatively easily except the one of keeping the panning speed correct. That requires plain physical skills.

It seemed to me that, if circumstances allowed, it would be better to be further away with a longer lens. In that case the angular speed of panning is closer to constant, and smaller, over the time that one would normally track the subject. I would like to try that next time.

Also, I wonder whether a (freely swivelling) tripod would be a good idea. At least, it would keep the up and down movement of the camera in check.

[Dave Humphries]

I wonder whether a (freely swivelling) tripod would be a good idea. At least, it would keep the up and down movement of the camera in check.

Hi Tony,

I have tried it on some subjects, but the standard tripod head, especially if attached to camera body and not the lens itself (to give better balance), just results in a lot of arm ache - and consequent up/down movement when you try to track a subject.

I suppose if you have a lens with tripod collar (I don't) and can arrange for plane of rotation of tripod head to match the subject exactly (implies subject track must be 100% on level) and have a tripod head that allows rotation independent from tilt, then you might have some success.

I'd expect more success will be gained by people with the funds and weight carrying ability to use a gimbal head; something like this, but I don't have one of these either, although some members do and may be able to provide more help.

HTH,

[William W]

After having had a go at panning, I think the all the issues can be sorted out relatively easily except the one of keeping the panning speed correct. That requires plain physical skills.

Yes.

It seemed to me that, if circumstances allowed, it would be better to be further away with a longer lens. In that case the angular speed of panning is closer to constant, and smaller, over the time that one would normally track the subject. I would like to try that next time.

Further away from the Subject means a slower linear speed of the lens that is doing the panning, which is good and also bad:

1. it can be really difficult to hold a long heavy lens and pan it SMOOTHLY, panning it slowly. Yes - in this case MONOPOD would be useful

2. the slower the panning speed of the lens, then the LONGER the shutter speed that is required to produce a streak of any given blur length, for any given Subject to Background distance

So it is not just ONLY about the lens's FL.

***

Also, I wonder whether a (freely swivelling) tripod would be a good idea. At least, it would keep the up and down movement of the camera in check.

If the lens is not too long (physically long): – it is probably better in most circumstances - and also easier - to develop a good panning technique.

Correct camera holding technique by means of a relaxed locking of the elbows.
Develop a good panning technique by the relaxed locking of the the neck.
Rotating about the hips.
The weight transference about the feet, which need to be positioned such that the front foot is the one which you pan TO . . .
i.e. similar to the feet position for a Forehand (Tennis) Stroke (Panning Right to Left) or a Backhand Stroke (Panning Left to Right).

WW