Post Processing Tools - Which are the same as in camera?

[Brownbear]

As I've recently started to take just raw photos (instead of raw and jpeg) I'm curious as to what post processing tools are the same as in camera editing.


From what I have read I understand these to be...

1. Exposure, shadows and highlights

2. White balance

3. Vibrancy and saturation

4. Sharpening including the use of un-sharp masks

5. Contrast

6. Dodging and burning


Is using the curves and levels tool to adjust the tones also considered a normal post processing tool? I would think so because I can adjust the curves in-camera but I'm not sure about levels.


Thank you.

[Mito]

Christina, the replies to your questions have helped me greatly.
As to this and I stand corrected the RAW file in the camera is an electronic representation of the image you have just captured. The only control you have is the manipulation of the exposure triangle.
The image you see on the screen is a JPEG representation of the image taken. I'm not sure but I think that what you see depends on the way you have set the camera up for JPEG. Manipulation of a RAW image can only be done with a computer.
Please correct me if the info is incorrect.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Christina, the replies to your questions have helped me greatly.
Manipulation of a RAW image can only be done with a computer.
Please correct me if the info is incorrect.

Hi Brian,

Just like you, I also closely follow Christina's threads to learn from replies to them.

Perhaps, her camera has "in-camera edits" options considering it's the Nikon 7100. Which includes NEF(RAW) adjustments in-cam. My D5100 has it too, but none about curve adjustments.



HTH

[Brownbear]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for sharing. That is indeed nice to know.

I think I may not have posed my question in the best manner. I used to photograph just jpegs and strive for everything perfect out of the camera (and still do to the best of my ability and my cameras)... But because I have switched to photographing just raw photos I have to post process them as the camera does not apply contrast or curves or sharpening or anything to my raw photos, so they need to be processed, and the only way I can do that is on a computer using a processing program like Lightroom.

So I am trying to figure out what the normal processing tools in Lightroom are.

Thank you.

Christina, the replies to your questions have helped me greatly.
As to this and I stand corrected the RAW file in the camera is an electronic representation of the image you have just captured. The only control you have is the manipulation of the exposure triangle.
The image you see on the screen is a JPEG representation of the image taken. I'm not sure but I think that what you see depends on the way you have set the camera up for JPEG. Manipulation of a RAW image can only be done with a computer.
Please correct me if the info is incorrect.

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

The easiest way to get a handle on the post-processing capabilities of your camera is to review the portion of your manual that pertains to the Retouch menu. The one item on your list that cannot be done in-camera is dodging and burning. That's because dodging and burning is done only to a portion of the image; almost everything the camera does affects the entire image (see below for exceptions).

A quick glance at the manual for my D7000 reveals that, in addition to the first five items that you listed, it can also correct red-eye, crop the image, apply filter effects, overlay two images (much as I used to do with two slides), apply noise reduction, resize, straighten, correct distortion and perspective, create the look of capturing the image with a fisheye lens, create photo art in the style of an outline or a color sketch and create an image that is in the miniaturized style of a diorama.

Using the Levels and Curves tool is standard in computer-based post-processing software. I was not aware that either could be adjusted in-camera according to user specifications other than uploading a custom curve to the camera. However, this could be just a matter of my own ignorance. The word, "curve," does not exist in your D7000 manual according to Adobe so I don't know what you mean when you mention that you can adjust the curve in-camera.

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

Lightroom does everything that 95% of photographers need 99% of the time. You would do well to master the product and there are lots of excellent tutorials to help you do that. It can do everything your camera can do with regard to post-processing and lots, lots more.

[Mike Buckley]

the camera does not apply contrast or curves or sharpening or anything to my raw photos

Let's clarify that. Every RAW file generated by your camera has a full-size JPEG embedded in the RAW file. The settings that you make in your camera are applied to the embedded JPEG. All of the settings that are available when you are shooting JPEGs are available when you are shooting RAW or RAW+JPEG.

As an example, you could use free software to "extract" the embedded JPEG from your RAW file. (My cataloging software can be configured to do that.) The JPEG would then be rendered with Nikon's camera settings applied to it.

If you were using Nikon software to convert your RAW files (rather than display the embedded JPEG), that software would use your camera settings to make the conversion. You could then make further adjustments as needed. Third-party software does its best to emulate Nikon's proprietary settings. As an example, Lightroom 3 and earlier versions had a reputation for not doing that very well. Lightroom 4 and now version 5 have a reputation for an excellent job of doing that.

I realize this stuff can be very confusing in the beginning, but hopefully this clears a few things up.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Hi Brian,

Just to clarify about RAW(NEF) processing in-cam, here's what I saw in my Nikon D5100.
Menu -> Retouch Menu -> NEF( RAW) processing ->
adjustable items are:
Image quality
" size
White Balance
Exposure Compensation

Picture Controls
Standard
Neutral
Vivid
Monochrome
Portrait
Landscape
Landscape 2

Hi ISO NR
D-lighting

Then, you can click "EXE" to implement your adjusments to the NEF/RAW image , which outputs to -> jpg.

Hope this helps

[Manfred M]

Is using the curves and levels tool to adjust the tones also considered a normal post processing tool? I would think so because I can adjust the curves in-camera but I'm not sure about levels.

1. Curves are the best way to adjust the image's contrast. It is a far better tool than the contrast adjustment. I use it pretty well 100% of the time.

2. Levels - Lighten and darken the image. Again, a much better tool than the exposure tool. I don't use it if the image is okay, but if not, it is my tool of choice.

[Mike Buckley]

the RAW file in the camera is an electronic representation of the image you have just captured. The only control you have is the manipulation of the exposure triangle.

Hopefully my direct responses to Christina also help clear up your thinking about that.

[Mike Buckley]

1. Curves are the best way to adjust the image's contrast. It is a far better tool than the contrast adjustment. I use it pretty well 100% of the time.

2. Levels - Lighten and darken the image. Again, a much better tool than the exposure tool. I don't use it if the image is okay, but if not, it is my tool of choice.

I realize that Manfred understands all of the nuances, so my clarifications about his comments are meant for others rather than him: Both the Curves and Levels tools will affect both brightness and contrast; it's physically impossible to affect brightness using those tools without also affecting contrast and vice versa. You would have to use the two tools to fully appreciate my clarification, so don't get hung up on it if you haven't gained at least a certain amount of command of them.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Oh, almost forgot.

These can be done "in-camera".

While in NEF(RAW) processing in Nikon D5100
under Picture Controls, you can adjust the following:
Sharpening
Contrast
Brightness
Saturation
Hue.

HTH

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Thank you. I think I posed my question poorly. I have no intention of trying to use my camera to process my photos. I am using and learning Lightroom (and slowly working on some tutorials that I have been too slow to do, but will complete)

I am just trying to figure out the what are considered normal edits, the same as in camera. For example the requirements to submit photos for most nature and wildlife photography contests have rules about the type of processing you can do on your photos, and they usually just state things like only minor burning, dodging and/or color correction is acceptable, as is cropping and that filters are not permitted nor is manipulation, or filters. And if you strive for National Geographic type photos the same standards apply. But that is all they usually say.

Now that my photos are raw I need to apply contrast and sharpening etc... So I'm trying to figure out what is normal post processing so I know what is what.

With respect to curves, I may have mixed up my terms but I can set the tone compensation curves in my camera to neutral, vivid etc and I'm presuming that this is the same as using curves and levels because they effect the tones of my images.?

Thank you.

Christina,

The easiest way to get a handle on the post-processing capabilities of your camera is to review the portion of your manual that pertains to the Retouch menu. The one item on your list that cannot be done in-camera is dodging and burning. That's because dodging and burning is done only to a portion of the image; almost everything the camera does affects the entire image (see below for exceptions).

A quick glance at the manual for my D7000 reveals that, in addition to the first five items that you listed, it can also correct red-eye, crop the image, apply filter effects, overlay two images (much as I used to do with two slides), apply noise reduction, resize, straighten, correct distortion and perspective, create the look of capturing the image with a fisheye lens, create photo art in the style of an outline or a color sketch and create an image that is in the miniaturized style of a diorama.

Using the Levels and Curves tool is standard in computer-based post-processing software. I was not aware that either could be adjusted in-camera according to user specifications other than uploading a custom curve to the camera. However, this could be just a matter of my own ignorance. The word, "curve," does not exist in your D7000 manual according to Adobe so I don't know what you mean when you mention that you can adjust the curve in-camera.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I purchased a set of LR tutorials and will finish them this Fall. Truly...

Christina

Christina,

Lightroom does everything that 95% of photographers need 99% of the time. You would do well to master the product and there are lots of excellent tutorials to help you do that. It can do everything your camera can do with regard to post-processing and lots, lots more.

[Manfred M]

Oh, almost forgot.

These can be done "in-camera".

While in NEF(RAW) processing in Nikon D5100
under Picture Controls, you can adjust the following:
Sharpening
Contrast
Brightness
Saturation
Hue.

HTH

These settings only affect the jpg image (or tiff, if your camera outputs that format).

There is NO in-camera processing of RAW. A RAW file is purely what the sensor captures. Adjustments you make in camera will be written to the metadata and your editor may apply these settings when it imports the RAW file, but you are certainly free to deviate from this in PP.

[Nancy Moran G]

Ok, for all of us following Christina's learning process...
What if we buy her PSE 11 and let her start asking all the questions we need answers to? :0
I just got it, but have not used it yet. Also, just graduated to Jpeg and Raw capture, and she is on to just Raw!
I just gotta catch up
Nancy

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

I can't speak with authority about contest rules and Nat Geo standards but I think it's likely that the stuff that is normally done in post-processing to make a great photo is not only acceptable but also expected. As an example, when minor dodging and burning is allowed, you can be assured that the use of Levels and Curves is also allowed.

Hi Mike,

With respect to curves, I may have mixed up my terms but I can set the tone compensation curves in my camera to neutral, vivid etc and I'm presuming that this is the same as using curves and levels because they effect the tones of my images.?

The various NIkon Picture Controls (Vivid, Neutral, etc.) affect far more than just the curve. They also affect the sharpening, contrast (which is probably controlled by manipulation of the curve but, not being a Nikon engineer, I don't know), brightness (which also might be controlled by manipulation of the curve) saturation and hue. I know that because I use Nikon post-processing software. You can also control those same parameters in your camera by going into the menus and changing the default settings.

[Glenn NK]

As I've recently started to take just raw photos (instead of raw and jpeg) I'm curious as to what post processing tools are the same as in camera editing.


From what I have read I understand these to be...

1. Exposure, shadows and highlights

2. White balance

3. Vibrancy and saturation

4. Sharpening including the use of un-sharp masks

5. Contrast

6. Dodging and burning


Is using the curves and levels tool to adjust the tones also considered a normal post processing tool? I would think so because I can adjust the curves in-camera but I'm not sure about levels.


Thank you.

AFAIK, the camera processes only the first five (5) of the attributes on your list.

And yes, "curves and levels" is a normal processing tool.

Although the camera will sharpen a JPEG, I'd be surprised if the camera had "unsharp mask" built into it's algorithms.

I'm not aware of any camera that can t dodge and burn (at least not yet) as this is a matter of taste, and cameras aren't usually too good at tasts. Shooting RAW and processing it yourself to your own tastes is far more satisfying.

With RAW, if you don't get it right, you can re-do it. Once the camera "bakes in" the predetermined settings in a JPEG, one is limited in what can be done with the file.

IMO, there are other major drawbacks to JPEG files:

a) The camera profile is "cooked" in. In my Canons, I can select: ACR 3.4, ACR 4L4, Adobe Standard, Camera Faithful, Camera Landscape, Camera Neutral, Camera Portrait, and Camera Standard. In JPEG there is one option: "embedded".

b) Fewer WB options with JPEG (As shot, Auto, Custom) than there are with RAW (As shot, Daylight, Cloudy, Shade, Tungsten, Fluorescent, Flash, and Custom).

Glenn

[Mike Buckley]

Adjustments you make in camera will be written to the metadata and your editor may apply these settings when it imports the RAW file

Keep in mind that the adjustments made in-camera are also applied to the JPEG that is embedded in the RAW file.

[Brownbear]

Thank you Mike,

But when I import my raw photos to LR I have it set not to do anything to my photos, so that the post processing is my work not the cameras.

In a book I have on photography it talks about Darkroom Controls Versus Computer Manipulation and the difference between photographic and image tools,saying some are based in photography and some are based in computer imaging.

It states that photographic tools essentially enhance or subdue detail that is already in the photograph whereas computer imaging tends to add elements not already in the image.

My understanding is that the basic darkroom tools include...

Brightness control (shadows, highlights, curves and levels, or not for the latter two?)

Gamma Correction... which would be highlights and similar to brightness?

Contrast Control (which would inclued adjusting tones, so levels and curves, yes?)

Dodging and Burning

Cropping, Rotating and Sharpening

Hue, Saturation, Lightness and RGB and CMYK color controls. The latter which would include curves and levels?

Computer Editing

B&W conversions, filter effects, blurring, removing objects etc..

So I'm basically trying to understand the difference between Dark Room Controls (which my camera would do to a jpeg) and computer editing.

Is what I'm asking any clearer?

Let's clarify that. Every RAW file generated by your camera has a full-size JPEG embedded in the RAW file. The settings that you make in your camera are applied to the embedded JPEG. All of the settings that are available when you are shooting JPEGs are available when you are shooting RAW or RAW+JPEG.

As an example, you could use free software to "extract" the embedded JPEG from your RAW file. (My cataloging software can be configured to do that.) The JPEG would then be rendered with Nikon's camera settings applied to it.

If you were using Nikon software to convert your RAW files (rather than display the embedded JPEG), that software would use your camera settings to make the conversion. You could then make further adjustments as needed. Third-party software does its best to emulate Nikon's proprietary settings. As an example, Lightroom 3 and earlier versions had a reputation for not doing that very well. Lightroom 4 and now version 5 have a reputation for an excellent job of doing that.

I realize this stuff can be very confusing in the beginning, but hopefully this clears a few things up.