Learning Landscapes - Another Try

[Brownbear]

Thank you for taking the time to explain. Seems the more I learn the less I know... But I understand your reply, so that is a good sign.

The clouds in Grahame's first and third photos are very different from the fog and mist in your photos. His clouds have tonal range that can be enhanced. Your fog and mist has little tonal range and trying to give it tonal range will generally result in problems, at least based on my experience.

Perhaps most important, Grahame's clouds have texture that can be enhanced. The fog and mist in your photos have very little texture and to add texture would ruin the mood in my opinion.

[AB26]

Hi Christina,

Sunset/Sunrise: you might want to try this.
1.) WB – Kelvin 6800 and above
2.) Aperture Priority – between F 9&F11
3.) Exposure – Spot or Centre Weight
4.) Focal point – on the horizon where you also take the exposure reading (play with just below on and above) .
You can always compensate by using exposure compensation.

I am not saying it will work for all shots, it might just be worth trying and see what the outcome is, then you can adjust settings according to what you like.

If you camera can do it you may also try Auto WB and fine tune it: +1 to +3 it will also prevent Auto WB from eliminating the gold in the golden hour.

[Brownbear]

Hi Andre,

Thank you for the tips. I will try them out.

Actually my camera has an auto WB warm setting which I just discovered yesterday and will try out.

I'm curious as to why you recommend spot or center weighted metering for exposure for landscapes... Just to set the original exposure? or to use when taking the photograph? ie; it seems as though in a landscape the lighting throughout the entire image would be important, or not?

Thank you.

Hi Christina,

Sunset/Sunrise: you might want to try this.
1.) WB – Kelvin 6800 and above
2.) Aperture Priority – between F 9&F11
3.) Exposure – Spot or Centre Weight
4.) Focal point – on the horizon where you also take the exposure reading (play with just below on and above) .
You can always compensate by using exposure compensation.

I am not saying it will work for all shots, it might just be worth trying and see what the outcome is, then you can adjust settings according to what you like.

If you camera can do it you may also try Auto WB and fine tune it: +1 to +3 it will also prevent Auto WB from eliminating the gold in the golden hour.

[AB26]

I'm curious as to why you recommend spot or center weighted metering for exposure for landscapes...

Christina,

Not for all landscapes, only those with a huge dynamic range. What I do is to evaluate the dynamic range and then I decide what is most important. Some areas will clip and others might be underexposed when the dynamic range is beyond the reach of the camera.

When I use Spot or Centre Weight I often use exposure lock. I will use Spot or Centre Weight to evaluate the scene and then lock exposure at the appropriate setting that I think is best.

I’d rather lose some of the detail in dark areas and keep the light areas from clipping. Remember, data in an overexposed area cannot be recovered. You can always recover some detail in darker areas in PP.
When the scene is fairly evenly lit I will use Matrix. Unfortunately I have had Matrix metering letting me down in the past by “over saturating” the image. Could be a D200 thing.

My default exposure mode is Spot metering. Don’t do it if you are not sure how to use it, you might get very nasty results. There is no harm in experimenting with it to see if it can work for you.

The rule will be to use the metering mode that works best for you. You got to try them all to see what works best and when it works best for you.

Now go try that function you discovered and see what it can do for you.

PS. Please do not read any of my posts as a recommendation, rather as suggestions. I will not recommend you to use one or the other, rather encourage you to experiment with it.

[Brownbear]

Hi Andre,

Thank you for the explanation, very helpful and makes sense to me.

I have been experimenting, a lot, with different types of metering, just not on landscapes.

I try most everything suggested to me if I'm not familiar with it to learn something new. Appreciated.

Christina

Christina,

Not for all landscapes, only those with a huge dynamic range. What I do is to evaluate the dynamic range and then I decide what is most important. Some areas will clip and others might be underexposed when the dynamic range is beyond the reach of the camera.

When I use Spot or Centre Weight I often use exposure lock. I will use Spot or Centre Weight to evaluate the scene and then lock exposure at the appropriate setting that I think is best.

I’d rather lose some of the detail in dark areas and keep the light areas from clipping. Remember, data in an overexposed area cannot be recovered. You can always recover some detail in darker areas in PP.
When the scene is fairly evenly lit I will use Matrix. Unfortunately I have had Matrix metering letting me down in the past by “over saturating” the image. Could be a D200 thing.

My default exposure mode is Spot metering. Don’t do it if you are not sure how to use it, you might get very nasty results. There is no harm in experimenting with it to see if it can work for you.

The rule will be to use the metering mode that works best for you. You got to try them all to see what works best and when it works best for you.

Now go try that function you discovered and see what it can do for you.

PS. Please do not read any of my posts as a recommendation, rather as suggestions. I will not recommend you to use one or the other, rather encourage you to experiment with it.

[Stagecoach]

Hi Christina,

I have been following this thread with interest as it's also helping with what I have had a go at this week so I'm just going to throw another one into the bag regarding metering.

This is the procedure that I used to take the landscape images where I used a tripod, was in no particular rush and wanted to go home with captures of which I could be assured the exposures would allow processing e.g. no clipping of highlights or shadows that were not necessary;

a) Camera set on tripod and adjusted for the framing you want. (This is where it will remain)
b) Adjust focus using whatever method you prefer, I use manual.
c) Set the ISO you require, this will be base value normally under general conditions.
d) Set mode to 'Manual'
e) Select the Aperture you want. (chances are you will want to try a couple DoF, sweet spot, etc)
f) Select whatever Metering mode you want but it does not matter at all in this procedure example.
g) Adjust the Speed to centre the needle within the viewfinder meter scale.
h) Take shot. This gives you an exposure datum to base further adjustments against.
i) Look at the histogram and determine which way you want it to move.
j) Rotate the Speed wheel in the required direction to move the needle off centre along the scale. My camera is 3 clicks for 1 stop and you very soon get to know how much is needed to move the histogram a certain amount.

Continue making adjustments and taking shots until you have the histogram you want. Should you wish to try other Apertures follow the same procedure.

The metering method and where I metered I see as immaterial in this specific situation as all you want is a datum but it does not suggest that I do not rely upon my metering modes and metering points in many other situations.

Grahame

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

Thank you for sharing... Similar to what I did expect I use single point auto focus, and on this particular day I kept adjusting the shutter speed and the aperture to try and balance the histogram to no avail... and I kept moving around carrying my tripod trying to find a place where the shot would work... I wonder how you knew that?

Right now I'm not very fond of sunrises but no doubt I will try again... I will pick a set aperture to start. I think I'm very comfortable with my settings for nature shots but a little lost for landscapes but I will figure it out.. And likely try aperture priority to see how that works out and then switch to manual and adjust from there. So far for landscapes the only time I've had to use manual focus is when it has been foggy outside, but I will experiment with that too.

Truly appreciated.

[Brownbear]

Hi again,

I just tried that speed dial looking in the viewfinder thing... Very handy... So far I've just been adjusting exposure based on my best guess. I didn't know that little meter was inside my camera. Thank you for sharing.

That said I just took a photo of a white book on top of a black printer, set the aperture and dialed the speed until the meter was centered, and the photo is clipped?

Hi Christina,

I have been following this thread with interest as it's also helping with what I have had a go at this week so I'm just going to throw another one into the bag regarding metering.

This is the procedure that I used to take the landscape images where I used a tripod, was in no particular rush and wanted to go home with captures of which I could be assured the exposures would allow processing e.g. no clipping of highlights or shadows that were not necessary;

a) Camera set on tripod and adjusted for the framing you want. (This is where it will remain)
b) Adjust focus using whatever method you prefer, I use manual.
c) Set the ISO you require, this will be base value normally under general conditions.
d) Set mode to 'Manual'
e) Select the Aperture you want. (chances are you will want to try a couple DoF, sweet spot, etc)
f) Select whatever Metering mode you want but it does not matter at all in this procedure example.
g) Adjust the Speed to centre the needle within the viewfinder meter scale.
h) Take shot. This gives you an exposure datum to base further adjustments against.
i) Look at the histogram and determine which way you want it to move.
j) Rotate the Speed wheel in the required direction to move the needle off centre along the scale. My camera is 3 clicks for 1 stop and you very soon get to know how much is needed to move the histogram a certain amount.

Continue making adjustments and taking shots until you have the histogram you want. Should you wish to try other Apertures follow the same procedure.

The metering method and where I metered I see as immaterial in this specific situation as all you want is a datum but it does not suggest that I do not rely upon my metering modes and metering points in many other situations.

Grahame

[batmura]

Christina,

When shooting landscapes, you could always use aperture priority, though using manual mode would also work. Here is how I do it:

I use matrix metering most of the time. After setting up my tripod, I compose the shot and focus one tjird into the frame ensuring great depth of field. On my lenses, I get the sharpest images at f/8, but I might go up to f/16 depending on the light. Usually I will do a test shot at f/11 and decide if I want a longer or shorter exposure (I do a lot of long exposure work). If the former, I might go to f/16. If I'm pleased with the exposure, I will stay at 11. However, if it is already sunset time, then f/8 will yield great results halving the exposure time compared to f/11. So I can shoot for 2 minutes at f/8 instead of 4 minutes at f/11. It all depends on how much cloud movement or smoothness in the water you want to achieve. The darker it gets the more I stop down. Otherwise you might have to wait 20 minutes for a shot if you are using filters.

Speaking of which, I always use filters. I have a polarizer to deal with reflections in the water and gtting colour in the skies. Also, I use a Lee Big Stopper to cut 10 stops of light which enables me to do long exposure. On top of the Big Stopper, I have a 3-stop nd grad filter to get darker and more dramatic skies. I use a filter holder which makes it very easy to compose. Before I got my Lee filters, I used a BW filter which is also great, but you need to unscrew it every time you compose which takes time and you may miss a brilliant sunset. Also, I have the in-camera long exposure noise reduction turned off because if you do a 4-minute exposure you have to wait another 4 minutes if it is turned on and that means getting fewer shots in that valuable time frame.

I hope I have been able to help a bit. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions. I am a beginner myself, so I am also learning from this thread.

[Brownbear]

Hi Murat,

Thank you for sharing. Very helpful and very informative.

I adore your landscape images, totally dreamy full of gorgeous colour and silky water. I can't imagine how you will take them to another level but I'm looking forward to seeing more of them!

I will buy some filters as soon as I am able to.

PS Thank you to everyone for your very helpful replies. With all this information I hope to post a nice sunrise image one day.

Christina,

When shooting landscapes, you could always use aperture priority, though using manual mode would also work. Here is how I do it:

I use matrix metering most of the time. After setting up my tripod, I compose the shot and focus one tjird into the frame ensuring great depth of field. On my lenses, I get the sharpest images at f/8, but I might go up to f/16 depending on the light. Usually I will do a test shot at f/11 and decide if I want a longer or shorter exposure (I do a lot of long exposure work). If the former, I might go to f/16. If I'm pleased with the exposure, I will stay at 11. However, if it is already sunset time, then f/8 will yield great results halving the exposure time compared to f/11. So I can shoot for 2 minutes at f/8 instead of 4 minutes at f/11. It all depends on how much cloud movement or smoothness in the water you want to achieve. The darker it gets the more I stop down. Otherwise you might have to wait 20 minutes for a shot if you are using filters.

Speaking of which, I always use filters. I have a polarizer to deal with reflections in the water and gtting colour in the skies. Also, I use a Lee Big Stopper to cut 10 stops of light which enables me to do long exposure. On top of the Big Stopper, I have a 3-stop nd grad filter to get darker and more dramatic skies. I use a filter holder which makes it very easy to compose. Before I got my Lee filters, I used a BW filter which is also great, but you need to unscrew it every time you compose which takes time and you may miss a brilliant sunset. Also, I have the in-camera long exposure noise reduction turned off because if you do a 4-minute exposure you have to wait another 4 minutes if it is turned on and that means getting fewer shots in that valuable time frame.

I hope I have been able to help a bit. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions. I am a beginner myself, so I am also learning from this thread.

[Mike Buckley]

That said I just took a photo of a white book on top of a black printer, set the aperture and dialed the speed until the meter was centered, and the photo is clipped?

Insofar as using your camera is concerned, the metered information is only your starting point; the histogram tells you whether the exposure needs to be adjusted.

The meter can't know whether clipping will occur. When it does occur, change the exposure by altering the shutter, aperture, ISO or exposure compensation settings.

[Brownbear]

Thank you for clarifying. I though it might be a magic trick hidden in my camera. I will try it again with exposure comp (SS & Aperture already attempted.)

Insofar as using your camera is concerned, the metered information is only your starting point; the histogram tells you whether the exposure needs to be adjusted.

The meter can't know whether clipping will occur. When it does occur, change the exposure by altering the shutter, aperture, ISO or exposure compensation settings.

[Dusty]

Hi Christina,

Sunset/Sunrise: you might want to try this.
1.) WB – Kelvin 6800 and above
2.) Aperture Priority – between F 9&F11
3.) Exposure – Spot or Centre Weight
4.) Focal point – on the horizon where you also take the exposure reading (play with just below on and above) .
You can always compensate by using exposure compensation.

I am not saying it will work for all shots, it might just be worth trying and see what the outcome is, then you can adjust settings according to what you like.

If you camera can do it you may also try Auto WB and fine tune it: +1 to +3 it will also prevent Auto WB from eliminating the gold in the golden hour.

WB at 6800, that would give a blue tint in most cameras and if she is capturing in raw mode she can adjust it in PP.

Dave.

[Brownbear]

Thanks Dave... I'm shooting raw now so no worries I can adjust in PP. I like to experiment with WBs to see if I can get my camera to portray what I see, and things do look pretty blue early in the morning, and it was a sunrise shot I was trying for in this thread.

[Mike Buckley]

I will try it again with exposure comp (SS & Aperture already attempted.)

Review your manual and a thread from awhile back about how the exposure compensation button automatically alters the other settings in your camera that affect exposure. My point is that it's very important that you understand what is happening, not just what seems to be the easiest method to achieve results. If you don't understand how the exposure compensation button alters your camera settings while operating in Aperture priority, Shutter priority, and Manual mode with and without Auto ISO enabled, you won't know when or how to use it in a particular situation.

I sense that you're getting confused by trying all the different modes in so many different situations. Now that you have progressed so far through the learning curve, I'm going to recommend again that you master using Aperture Priority combined with Auto ISO and Exposure Compensation in all situations. That combination will work just fine whether you're shooting birds in flight or landscapes.

Once you understand how that combination works to control the ISO, shutter and aperture, you can then branch out to other combinations of settings to determine if this or that seems to be a better fit for you. Another way of saying all of this is that I think you're at the stage that your most important short-term goal is to master the most fundamental capabilities of your camera rather than trying to make the most beautiful photo.

I realize that all of us learn using different methods but I don't know anyone who learns anything as complex as a DSLR by trying everything before mastering anything. Trying every capability in your camera is making the learning process more difficult than it needs to be.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Thank you Mike for taking the time to share some great advice. Yes, I may be a bit confused about exposure compensation so I will read up on how it works in all the different modes with and without auto iso.

I will try Aperture priority with auto iso (set at a max) and exposure compensation for a week or two, for absolutely everything but birds in flight (except for the odd test shot of BIF just to check it out again)

I guess I just decided it was time to try new things like landscapes and high key photos, and learn all the other modes on my camera. So I will switch to Aperture priority and see what I learn and report back to you.

Review your manual and a thread from awhile back about how the exposure compensation button automatically alters the other settings in your camera that affect exposure. My point is that it's very important that you understand what is happening, not just what seems to be the easiest method to achieve results. If you don't understand how the exposure compensation button alters your camera settings while operating in Aperture priority, Shutter priority, and Manual mode with and without Auto ISO enabled, you won't know when or how to use it in a particular situation.

I sense that you're getting confused by trying all the different modes in so many different situations. Now that you have progressed so far through the learning curve, I'm going to recommend again that you master using Aperture Priority combined with Auto ISO and Exposure Compensation in all situations. That combination will work just fine whether you're shooting birds in flight or landscapes.

Once you understand how that combination works to control the ISO, shutter and aperture, you can then branch out to other combinations of settings to determine if this or that seems to be a better fit for you. Another way of saying all of this is that I think you're at the stage that your most important short-term goal is to master the most fundamental capabilities of your camera rather than trying to make the most beautiful photo.

I realize that all of us learn using different methods but I don't know anyone who learns anything as complex as a DSLR by trying everything before mastering anything. Trying every capability in your camera is making the learning process more difficult than it needs to be.

[Mike Buckley]

I will try Aperture priority with auto iso (set at a max) and exposure compensation for a week or two, for absolutely everything but birds in flight

If you can provide a rational explanation of why not to use it with birds in flight, I'll buy that approach. Until then, I won't.

I'll explain why...

One of your primary concerns about photographing birds in flight is to use a fast enough shutter speed to stop the action (unless of course you are intentionally trying to show the motion by intentionally not stopping the action). You can control that by setting the Auto ISO's minimum shutter speed.

One of your other primary concerns is making sure that the entire bird is included in the depth of field. You can control that by using Aperture priority and setting the aperture.

So, what is the reason that you would not use Aperture priority, Auto ISO and exposure compensation to photograph birds in flight, at least at this relatively early stage of your learning curve when it might be helpful to master the basic camera functions?

[Brownbear]

If you can provide a rational explanation of why not to use it with birds in flight, I'll buy that approach. Until then, I won't.

I'll explain why...

One of your primary concerns about photographing birds in flight is to use a fast enough shutter speed to stop the action (unless of course you are intentionally trying to show the motion by intentionally not stopping the action). You can control that by setting the Auto ISO's minimum shutter speed.

One of your other primary concerns is making sure that the entire bird is included in the depth of field. You can control that by using Aperture priority and setting the aperture.

So, what is the reason that you would not use Aperture priority, Auto ISO and exposure compensation to photograph birds in flight, at least at this relatively early stage of your learning curve when it might be helpful to master the basic camera functions?

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I will try Aperture priority for a week or two, including on BIF.

My reason for hesitation is....

Right now I know that when I photograph BIF during the early morning hours I always have to struggle with the balance of having a fast enough shutter speed with a reasonable ISO (ideally no more than 800 but often times 1600), this with a shutter speed of 1600 and an Aperture of 4, using my best lens (300 mm Nikon), and exposure compensation of +1 or +2 max. (any more and I usually see clipping in the white bits of the birds)

The light is low in the early morning hours but this is also when the birds are out and about. I should be using a shutter speed of 2500 and an aperture of 8 but this means an iso of 3200 or more, so I've figured out that sometimes I can get away with an ISO of 1600 or less if I use an aperture of 4 to 7 and a shutter speed of 1200-1600.

I also experiment with Manual SS 2500, Aperture 8 and auto iso set to a max of 3200 and my camera always wants to choose the high isos, and I think the lower isos produce a nicer image quality and I'm not crazy about noise reduction (albeit I have to learn to use these programs better)

If I use aperture priority set at 8 I'm pretty sure my camera is going to choose either a super high iso or drop the shutter speed too much to account for the low light.

Also while I was in Mexico I tried Aperture Priority (using my Sony) on some BIF and most of those photos turned out too blurry. Shutter Priority makes more sense to me for birds because if my camera chooses a larger aperture it will likely still work with my chosen iso if I'm not too close. Aperture priority seems a better choice for landscapes and flowers.

I do understand that in Aperture priority my camera will chose a shutter speed for the best exposure based on my choice of iso, and I think it will be a low shutter speed.

I also understand that positive exposure compensation will brighten my photo and negative compensation will darken it. And that when I use auto iso my camera will drop the shutter speed if the light is not sufficient. I'm a little murky on the effects of exposure compensation in the different modes (SS and Aperture) but I will read up on them and find that thread.

I do wish to master all the basic functions of my camera and I've been exploring them these past two weeks. When I first acquired my new camera I just stuck with what I knew for BIF because I was pretty excited to be able to finally photograph fast moving things and have better noise performance. So it is just these past couple of weeks that I have begun exploring all the modes and functions on my new camera. I even purchased a handbook (fancy manual) to read on my camera.

I will try Aperture priority on everything including BIF for a week or two, as I do have to try it on my new camera and see what happens.

Thank you.

Here are two sample photos where I used Aperture Priority Set at 8

ISO 400 and my Sony 200 Camera chose a shutter speed of 1/8 second




ISO 320 and my Nikon D80 chose a shutter speed of 320



I also have a photo of a running horse on photographed using aperture priority where the shutter speed chosen by my camera was 1/8 second, and tons of bird photos from Mexico where the shutter speed chosen was too low, and that is why I'm hesitant about aperture priority for moving things.

PS I just noted your comment about being able to set a minimum shutter speed for aperture priority when using auto iso.. I didn't know about auto iso back then (and I didn't have it on my Sony camera) and I haven't tried aperture priority on my new camera (except for landscapes) so I didn't know I could do this, so after re-reading your reply this makes sense as it means that I can control the shutter speed. I'm not sure if I can control the shutter speed when I choose my ISO but I will check it out, and if yes, perhaps aperture priority can work well on birds in fight... I will try it. Thank you for sharing...

[Brownbear]

Mike, Please note that I added some comments to my reply... It took me a while to understand everything you were saying as related to aperture priority...