Learning Landscapes - Water Fountain Test Silky Water

[Mike Buckley]

I think manual may be the better choice sometimes (which will help me learn everything about my camera

You aren't trying to learn everything about your camera, at least not now. You tried that process in the past and it was largely ineffective. As an example, it was only last week that you realized that your viewfinder displays a meter reading. Once you realized that, you incorrectly assumed that it would not allow any clipping to take place. So, despite your dramatic improvement in certain areas, especially composition, this information speaks to the fact that you still haven't learned the very most basic stuff about your camera.

As a result, my very firm belief is that you should be exceptionally disciplined in using Aperture priority and exposure compensation, and Auto ISO if you are not using a tripod. I can't repeat that often enough and I can't be much more help if you decide otherwise.

For example if there was a black bear in the water at the base of a brightly lit waterfall I may wish to have less depth of field combined with the slowest shutter speed possible to achieve a silky waterfall.

This is a perfect example that demonstrates that you understand a lot of the relationships of how your camera works but you understandably don't yet realize how to put that information to practical use. Unless the bear is dead or anesthetized, it's not possible to achieve a shutter speed that both blurs the waterfall and keeps the bear sharp.

Again, stick to the stuff you decided upon a few days ago and don't veer from it until you master it.

[Polar01]

Mike: yes I had not read your earlier post as I had started to write a post which would have been #3 however because of doing other things it did not post until #10 of which you posted 4 minutes later. There was no way I could have read your posts before hand. I was thinking more towards your later posts in the thread by Christina "Learning Landscapes-Another Try" in that one you talked about auto ISO, and never said anything about disabling auto ISO as you do now in this thread's post #4, If I had read that post I may not have written what I did.
I have always found that until you understand a piece of machinery completely never try to run it with more that one auto function at a time.

Cheers:

Allan

[Brownbear]

okay, will do.

Interesting to hear about the bear and blurred water, but (: sad to hear that

You aren't trying to learn everything about your camera, at least not now. You tried that process in the past in it was largely ineffective. As an example, it was only last week that you realized that your viewfinder displays a meter reading. Once you realized that, you incorrectly assumed that it would not allow any clipping to take place. So, despite your dramatic improvement in certain areas, especially composition, this information speaks to the fact that you still haven't learned the very most basic stuff about your camera.

As a result, my very firm belief is that you should be exceptionally disciplined in using Aperture priority and exposure compensation, and Auto ISO if you are not using a tripod. I can't repeat that often enough and I can't be much more help if you decide otherwise.




This is a perfect example that demonstrates that you understand a lot of the relationships of how your camera works but you understandably don't yet realize how to put that information to practical use. Unless the bear is dead or anesthetized, it's not possible to achieve a shutter speed that both blurs the waterfall and keeps the bear sharp.

Again, stick to the stuff you decided upon a few days ago and don't veer from it until you master it.

[Brownbear]

Thank you for clarifying.

Exposure compensation is simply an override on the automatic exposure settings of your camera's light meter. Remember that your camera's reflective light meter "assumes" the scene has an "average" amount of light reflecting from it. If the scene is not average and seems to be over or under exposed, you need to compensate for this, and that is what exposure compensation is all about.

I would also make the same suggestion as Mike is making; adjust one variable at a time, to understand how that work. Until you know your equipment (and photography in general), it is the only way to learn.

[Mike Buckley]

I have always found that until you understand a piece of machinery completely never try to run it with more that one auto function at a time.

I would generally agree, Allan. However, combining Auto ISO and Aperture priority is an exception that is worth making in my mind. I'll explain.

If Auto ISO isn't used, Christina will have to make sure on her own that the shutter speed is fast enough to meet her needs in a particular photo. That's just one more thing to think about and look for. If Auto ISO is used properly, she'll know that her shutter speed is sufficiently fast except in very extreme situations when that simply isn't possible even when shooting in Manual mode.

If Auto ISO isn't used, she has to manually make sure that the ISO is sufficiently high to allow her to use the aperture setting she has selected. That again is another thing to think about and look for. As above, when using Auto ISO she'll always know that her ISO setting is high enough except in the very extreme situations when it will never be high enough.

Last, I've been working closely with Christina for so long that I have an idea of how she thinks and reacts to certain situations. That's part of the reason I really believe that she will progress much farther much faster if she first masters using Auto ISO combined with Aperture priority (of course though only when shooting handheld).

Make sense?

[Mike Buckley]

Interesting to hear about the bear and blurred water, but (: sad to hear that

Think about it this way: Make a list of the shutter speeds that are fast enough to stop the action of a live bear moving about at a normal speed. Make a list of the shutter speeds that are slow enough to blur a waterfall. Which shutter speeds are common to both lists? The answer: none.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I should've stated a stationary light brown bear or a grey squirrel...

I've seen many photos of silky waterfalls where something is sharp in the image, often the foreground with a shallower depth of field. In the link below there are some examples.


https://www.gadventures.com/blog/waterfall-photos/

Thank you.

Think about it this way: Make a list of the shutter speeds that are fast enough to stop the action of a live bear moving about at a normal speed. Make a list of the shutter speeds that are slow enough to blur a waterfall. Which shutter speeds are common to both lists? The answer: none.

[Manfred M]

Mike - while I understand where you are trying to take Christina; I'm more in alignment with what Alan is saying. Changing any of the adjustments in the exposure triangle will have consequences on the ultimate image; and of those, adjusting ISO (whether manually or through auto ISO) has subtle, yet potentially profound impacts on image quality.

1. Shutter speed variation - impacts motion from blurring at lower shutter speeds to freezing motion at higher ones. Add to this different focal length impact as one goes from wide angle to super-long lenses.

2. Aperture variation - Depth of field is the main impact, but image quality from shoot wide open through diffraction when one stops down to large f-stop numbers.

3. ISO - maximum dynamic range, maximum colour depth and minimum noise at the low ISO. Head to the higher side of the range; dynamic range, colour depth both drop and noise goes up.

I can't see any way other than studying these results independently to understand how your equipment operates and what is acceptable to you the photographer.

[Mike Buckley]

I should've stated a stationary light brown bear or a grey squirrel...

I don't photograph animals regularly and didn't know there is any such thing as a stationary bear or squirrel other than portrayed in a sculpture.

[Mike Buckley]

I can't see any way other than studying these results independently to understand how your equipment operates and what is acceptable to you the photographer.

I agree that they need to be studied eventually but I disagree that it's best for Christina to study all of them now. By using Auto ISO, she only has to think of the impact of aperture once she determines her Auto ISO settings. She can graduate to considering the other factors and their impact once she can consistently and reliably produce sharp photos that are reasonably properly exposed. Until she can do that, matters of limited dynamic range and the like are relatively unimportant.

Consider that as recently as in the last two weeks, she has been unable to distinguish between softness caused by motion blur and softness caused by lack of depth of field. She didn't realize that her camera viewfinder displays a meter display, much less understand what it does and doesn't indicate. It's in that context and her nearly constant state of confusion (I agree with Andre about that), that I think she should use Auto ISO to keep the decision-making as simple as possible when shooting handheld. If she would shoot only with a tripod, she could leave the ISO set at 100 and eliminate the use of Auto ISO, but I doubt that we'll ever to get her to do that and only that.

[Brownbear]

I don't photograph animals regularly and didn't know there is any such thing as a stationary bear or squirrel other than portrayed in a sculpture.

Hi Mike,

It is possible as I've seen several images that I admire greatly that have wildlife and silky water, including Dan's beautiful bears. I just did a quick search to see if I could find some information and photographs of wildlife with silky water and found this link with photos by Nick Kalathas of Natures Moments and I looked up the exif data for the 2nd photo which shows

Aperture Priority ( ) SS 1/15 second (produced silky water whereas my attempt didn't) ISO 250 Exposure Comp +1)

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1234299

Not that I'm likely to find a bear, squirrel or wildlife in a waterfall any time soon but this was what I envisioned in my mind.

Thank you.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I will use my tripod whenever it is possible with the iso set at 100 and when not possible I will set my camera to auto iso.

No, I'm not sure how to distinguish between motion blur (unless it is obvious) and softness caused by lack of DOF but I will learn to do so. With respect to my view finders meter display, no I wasn't aware of that particular tool but I always look at my histogram and adjust the exposure after viewing, and yes it seems like a very handy in-camera tool to utilize, so I will.

Thank you.

I agree that they need to be studied eventually but I disagree that it's best for Christina to study all of them now. By using Auto ISO, she only has to think of the impact of aperture once she determines her Auto ISO settings. She can graduate to considering the other factors and their impact once she can consistently and reliably produce sharp photos that are reasonably properly exposed. Until she can do that, matters of limited dynamic range and the like are relatively unimportant.

Consider that as recently as in the last two weeks, she has been unable to distinguish between softness caused by motion blur and softness caused by lack of depth of field. She didn't realize that her camera viewfinder displays a meter display, much less understand wha

t it does and doesn't indicate. It's in that context and her nearly constant state of confusion (I agree with Andre about that), that I think she should use Auto ISO to keep the decision-making as simple as possible when shooting handheld. If she would shoot only with a tripod, she could leave the ISO set at 100 and eliminate the use of Auto ISO, but I doubt that we'll ever to get her to do that and only that.

[Mike Buckley]

You're doing fine, Christina. You just need to slow down and tackle one issue at a time before moving on to the next issue. Looking forward to that process!

[jcuknz]

so I place my camera on the cement base surrounding the fountain, holding it very steady... I thought that would be stable enough to prevent any camera movement?

The moral of the story is "you do not touch the camera while it is resting safely on support' and to give it time to settle down after pressing trigger by using the 10 second delay release. There is a slight problem with DSLRs with the mirror lifting which is why you have 'mirror lock'.
You obviously need Colin's tripod or my mini-tripod But a firm concrete slab is cheaper and maybe something to rest the lens on for the camera to look upwards ... as a mere male I have pockets and a biro in one of them

Edit to #32 You use 100 ISO PERIOD! unless there is a real need not to and only auto ISO if you have it limited.

[rtbaum]

I think that I am going to throw myself to the wolves on this one. Christina, I say that you should go for the waterfall photos. The key to silky waterfalls is not rocket science, the key is slow shutter speed, f/8 to f/22 for aperture, base ISO (on my D90 that would be ISO 200). My first SLR was pretty basic, therefore I am fairly comfortable shooting with everything on Manual. Waterfalls give you all the time necessary to think a shot through. I use a ND10 to help my attain slow shutter speeds to good effect. The only thing that should move is the flow of the water. I always use a tripod and remote release, oftentimes I also use MLU. My best I have also attached a CP filter to reduce glare from rocks. Waterfall photography is one endeavor that works well on overcast and rainy days for the saturation of color. I agree with the rest, auto ISO is a tool that is valuable when shooting birds or fast action, but I set my ISO to a fixed value for most of my other shots to suit the situation.

So....go for it and enjoy your camera

[Brownbear]

Photo Nut and Randy, thank you for your thoughtful and informative replies. Truly appreciated.

Photo Nut, I'm likely to purchase a new used lens sometime next week as well as a tripod, and one of those remote trigger release gadgets. While I have yet to try mirror lock up I understand why it is used and will try it... I didn't know that one was not supposed to move their camera for 10 seconds afterwards, and this is likely a good example of one of the mechanical things I have yet to explore on my camera, that Mike is trying to encourage me to slow down to learn about, which includes live view and bracketing, and even shutter and aperture priority (used on my old camera but not on my new camera), among other things. I will read up on that and try it.

Randy.... Thank you for sharing and for your encouragement. I do understand the settings needed and I will try it with aperture priority, using a tripod with the iso at 100 or set at a suitable maximum for the scene at hand, as Mike has suggested when I use a tripod. (remote release, better tripod and filters etc, all to be taken care of soon)

I'm the type of person who puts together a computer or television without reading the manual, figuring out what I need to figure out, to make it work, but skipping the rest of the manual. However, that I have read and do study my camera manual (the only manual I've read in my life and only because I'm learning that it is necessary). That said, I study, work hard, and practice what I'm trying to learn as if the end of the world is approaching. So while I have managed some very nice images of nature and birds in flight, now that I'm trying new things, ie; landscapes, sunsets I'm a little lost so it is time for me take a few steps back and learn some of the basic things I have missed along the way including some basic helpful features on my camera, which will help me be more consistent. No worries, I do intend to try for that waterfall, and also a sunrise photo...

[Mike Buckley]

Just to clarify things, I'm not suggesting in the least, Christina, that you shouldn't shoot waterfalls. I do think it will be helpful, though, for you to make two photos of the exact same scene -- one creating the silky water and one stopping the action in the water. I think that exercise will be very helpful and has the added bonus of potentially creating two wonderful photos.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Hi Christina,

If you may, please allow me to request Randy some sample water fountain/falls photos with EXIF for our enlightenment/study.

Randy, if you have time, please post some water fountain/falls photos with exif. It will greatly help our study if you can.

Thanks

Victor

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I know that... And will do. I also intend to try bracketing after I read that section of the manual a couple more times.

Just to clarify things, I'm not suggesting in the least, Christina, that you shouldn't shoot waterfalls. I do think it will be helpful, though, for you to make two photos of the exact same scene -- one creating the silky water and one stopping the action in the water. I think that exercise will be very helpful and has the added bonus of potentially creating two wonderful photos.

[Brownbear]

Hi Victor,

No need to ask permission for asking or posting anything in my threads. I'm all for learning and if others learn from my threads, all the better. If you haven't notice, all my threads are kind of all over the place, perhaps a little confusing but full of informative replies.

Hi Christina,

If you may, please allow me to request Randy some sample water fountain/falls photos with EXIF for our enlightenment/study.

Randy, if you have time, please post some water fountain/falls photos with exif. It will greatly help our study if you can.

Thanks

Victor