Learning Landscapes - Water Fountain Test Silky Water

[Mike Buckley]

I also intend to try bracketing after I read that section of the manual a couple more times.

That's one of those 100 things that you want to do. There is automated bracketing and there is manual bracketing. The results are exactly the same. For now, stick to the manual bracketing. Ask about manual bracketing if you don't understand it.

[Brownbear]

But it is a basic camera function, correct?

I would guess that automated bracketing is the section in my manual that says to pick the number of shots and the exposure compensation, and that manual bracketing would be where I simply take a few different shots (using a tripod) at different exposure compensations?

That's one of those 100 things that you want to do. There is automated bracketing and there is manual bracketing. The results are exactly the same. For now, stick to the manual bracketing. Ask about manual bracketing if you don't understand it.

[Digital]

Christina, in one of your posts you related that you study, and practice like the end of the world is approaching. Why is that?
Learning one's camera, and getting decent results takes time. IMHO you are being unfair to yourself in what appears to be that you are attempting to learn everything about photography immediately if not sooner. Why?
Photography like a lot of things in life is one of those endeavors that you will be constantly learning.
Slow down.


Bruce

[ajohnw]

I can't see how using auto iso is going to help. One easy way of getting to grips with iso is to look what sort of day it is. Sunny set 100, dull set 400 for general use. Easy to change on this particular camera anyway so if faster or slower shutter speeds are needed change it as needed. The numbers change by a factor of 2 per stop up or down. Just a case of getting used to where the iso change button is. For many things the base settings of 100 or 400 will be fine anyway.

You might like to use P mode for a while. This effectively gives either aperture or speed priority as the exposure remains correct as the control wheel is changed. So one direction will give slower apertures and longer exposure times and the other faster apertures and shorter exposures. The ISO setting can be used to extend the range if needed. Some cameras but not this one would put exposure compensation on the other control wheel. In this case the +/- button would have to be pressed to compensate if needed. Often it's best to ensure the highlights aren't clipped unless you want to do that. Practice by shooting fluffy clouds on a clear day and relate this to how the bright end of the histogram looked when you took the shot. Some helpful cameras show clipping in the preview.

Depth of field can be roughly guessed via the viewfinder and the DOF preview button but it's important that the view finder dioptre adjustment is correct.. This is best done by using the AF on something easy that it wont get wrong but it's very important that the eye is relaxed when the adjustment is made. Not so easy. When the eye is relaxed it's focused on infinity. This can be helped by looking into the distance and then into the camera while trying to retain the eye's long focus rather than refocusing the image in the viewfinder. The easy object for the AF might be a flower and relatively close. When you are out shooting and not thinking about it your more likely to notice that it isn't set correctly. It can be set correctly but several attempts might be needed. One of your long lenses is likely to be best for this. The setting can also be checked by shooting using manual focusing. Go either side of the correct focus for equal fuzz and guess the centre.

One nice aspect of digital cameras is that there usually isn't any problems involved in taking a number of shots at different settings. The answer to your waterfall and the above especially if you go out to take shots for nothing other than practice.

I am a little controversial and use P mode a lot. On most cameras it gives complete control of aperture and shutter speed limited only by the current ISO setting. If the wanted aperture or speed can't be set via the control wheel then the iso has to be changed. I find that P mode without any further adjustment is also the best way to find out just what a camera does under a given set of circumstances and quickly suggests when exposure compensation is likely to be needed. DOF comes with practice but the viewfinder can definitely help with that but don't expect supreme accuracy. Solution is simple. If you keep 1/2 pressing the shutter button most cameras will decide to focus in a different place or try and force it too. Focus lock on a 1/2 shutter press is another useful facility but can get a bit complicated if the camera also locks on a different exposure as compensation has to be used to get it back where it should be.

John
-

[Brownbear]

Hi Bruce,

Likely because I'm a creative over achiever who could learn more patience who sees beautiful images in my head and created by others that I want to be able to do, too. Sound words of advice. Thank you for sharing.

PS I always take the time to thoroughly enjoy life.... Sometimes I just post for the fun of it... ie; a little less boring than just saying. I study and practice...

Christina, in one of your posts you related that you study, and practice like the end of the world is approaching. Why is that?
Learning one's camera, and getting decent results takes time. IMHO you are being unfair to yourself in what appears to be that you are attempting to learn everything about photography immediately if not sooner. Why?
Photography like a lot of things in life is one of those endeavors that you will be constantly learning.
Slow down.


Bruce

[Brownbear]

Hi John,

Thank you for a very detailed and informative reply. I haven't tried P mode yet but I will try it out as a learning exercise, but first I am going to fulfill my commitment to Mike to work with aperture priority for a while... Funny as it may sound I am more comfortable with manual mode, even if I make mistakes because at least they are my own mistakes. And P mode is something I have never tried, so it is likely too many things at one time.

You have shared some great advice that I and many others will learn from. Thank you for that.

I can't see how using auto iso is going to help. One easy way of getting to grips with iso is to look what sort of day it is. Sunny set 100, dull set 400 for general use. Easy to change on this particular camera anyway so if faster or slower shutter speeds are needed change it as needed. The numbers change by a factor of 2 per stop up or down. Just a case of getting used to where the iso change button is. For many things the base settings of 100 or 400 will be fine anyway.

You might like to use P mode for a while. This effectively gives either aperture or speed priority as the exposure remains correct as the control wheel is changed. So one direction will give slower apertures and longer exposure times and the other faster apertures and shorter exposures. The ISO setting can be used to extend the range if needed. Some cameras but not this one would put exposure compensation on the other control wheel. In this case the +/- button would have to be pressed to compensate if needed. Often it's best to ensure the highlights aren't clipped unless you want to do that. Practice by shooting fluffy clouds on a clear day and relate this to how the bright end of the histogram looked when you took the shot. Some helpful cameras show clipping in the preview.

Depth of field can be roughly guessed via the viewfinder and the DOF preview button but it's important that the view finder dioptre adjustment is correct.. This is best done by using the AF on something easy that it wont get wrong but it's very important that the eye is relaxed when the adjustment is made. Not so easy. When the eye is relaxed it's focused on infinity. This can be helped by looking into the distance and then into the camera while trying to retain the eye's long focus rather than refocusing the image in the viewfinder. The easy object for the AF might be a flower and relatively close. When you are out shooting and not thinking about it your more likely to notice that it isn't set correctly. It can be set correctly but several attempts might be needed. One of your long lenses is likely to be best for this. The setting can also be checked by shooting using manual focusing. Go either side of the correct focus for equal fuzz and guess the centre.

One nice aspect of digital cameras is that there usually isn't any problems involved in taking a number of shots at different settings. The answer to your waterfall and the above especially if you go out to take shots for nothing other than practice.

I am a little controversial and use P mode a lot. On most cameras it gives complete control of aperture and shutter speed limited only by the current ISO setting. If the wanted aperture or speed can't be set via the control wheel then the iso has to be changed. I find that P mode without any further adjustment is also the best way to find out just what a camera does under a given set of circumstances and quickly suggests when exposure compensation is likely to be needed. DOF comes with practice but the viewfinder can definitely help with that but don't expect supreme accuracy. Solution is simple. If you keep 1/2 pressing the shutter button most cameras will decide to focus in a different place or try and force it too. Focus lock on a 1/2 shutter press is another useful facility but can get a bit complicated if the camera also locks on a different exposure as compensation has to be used to get it back where it should be.

John
-

[nimitzbenedicto]

I am a little controversial and use P mode a lot. On most cameras it gives complete control of aperture and shutter speed limited only by the current ISO setting. If the wanted aperture or speed can't be set via the control wheel then the iso has to be changed. I find that P mode without any further adjustment is also the best way to find out just what a camera does under a given set of circumstances and quickly suggests when exposure compensation is likely to be needed. DOF comes with practice but the viewfinder can definitely help with that but don't expect supreme accuracy. Solution is simple. If you keep 1/2 pressing the shutter button most cameras will decide to focus in a different place or try and force it too. Focus lock on a 1/2 shutter press is another useful facility but can get a bit complicated if the camera also locks on a different exposure as compensation has to be used to get it back where it should be.

John
-

Hi John,

May I request you post your photos of water fountains/falls using the settings you described in your post . Especially, those you took using "P" mode.

Actual photos will greatly accelerate our comprehension of your settings.

Thanks

[Stagecoach]

One day I would like to manage a beautiful image of a waterfall in the forest with silky water, and with that goal in mind I tried to achieve a silky water effect on a water fountain, even though the light was poor.

Right now I'm exploring the Aperture priority mode on my camera and auto iso to better understand the relationship between Aperture, SS, ISO and exposure compensation. (photographed with a Sigma 18-50 mm lens)

I chose the smallest aperture (for the slowest shutter speed)

F36 - SS chosen 1/6 second ISO 1600 Exposure compensation +.67 to move the histogram a bit more to the right for better light.

At larger apertures up to F11 (iso 720, exp. comp -33 (to avoid clipping the water) the water was too frozen and the image is too ugly to post.

How could I have managed a nicer shot of this image using manual mode, based on the information my camera chose in aperture priority? There does not seem to be much room for a slower shutter speed 1/2 or Bulb mode?

Hi Christina,

I have been reading through this one with interest and will comment based upon your present goal which is to explore the use of Aperture Priority with Auto ISO and based on the water fountain subject.

It's already been covered but you could have reduced your Auto ISO max limit setting down in steps from it's 1600 to lower and you would have seen that your Shutter speed would have (increased -Typo) decreased accordingly which would have given you a more silky effect.

In theory in this mode you could have achieved the same as you could if switching to manual, just a different way of going about things.

As for the silky water affects these generally need something within the image which is sharp in contrast to the water.

Now to throw something else into the learning pot

As you well know Christina there are three main variables on the camera that we have at our disposal to work with, aperture, speed and ISO and you are aware of what each does. One of the things I do these day is that when looking at a subject is to prioritise which of the affects of these variables will be most significant for the image.

Taking your above image I think it's relatively straightforward;

Priority 1 - Speed. You will not get the image and affect you want without 'x' speed.
Priority 2 - Aperture. For determining DoF.
Priority 3 - ISO. It will make little difference to this image if it's taken at ISO100 or ISO1600.

By doing this I find it helps to concentrate me and stop my mind wandering, it does of course get harder determining priorities once you start approaching limits.

Grahame

[Loose Canon]

Hi Christina!

Been watching your threads with great interest!

I don’t know about you but I’m totally confused! And I know all this stuff!

Wouldn’t have been my approach, but hey? That’s just me! So I’ll just stay off to the side and continue watching!

While I’m busy not getting involved here I thought I’d just not get involved by putting these up for consideration.

I had these in the archive and they have not been processed other than some sharpening and a quick curve I have set in PS actions. Just quickies from the .dng’s but the point is the effect that different shutter speeds have on moving water.

I shot these with a Singh-Ray Vari-ND filter on my lens and on a tripod (fun hauling all that crap up to 12,000!). While I was up there (this fall occurs at just above 12,000 ft. above sea level) I shot at various shutter speeds with the same aperture/ISO. Shot in manual. Just set my aperture, ISO, and worked the shutter. Evaluative (Canon) metering and let ‘er rip! Here are a couple of each end of the shutter speeds.

Go get ‘em Christina!

f/22, ISO 100, Shutter at 1/15



f22, ISO 100, Shutter at 20 sec.



The shot I chose as my keeper and processed was somewhere in between.

[Dusty]

I must admit I love the 1st one, not into this milky water stuff.
Dave.

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

thank you for sharing...

Is this a typo?

It's already been covered but you could have reduced your Auto ISO max limit setting down in steps from it's 1600 to lower and you would have seen that your Shutter speed would have increased accordingly which would have given you a more silky effect.

ie; I choose the largest aperture available in Aperture Priority which in theory should've given me the slowest possible shutter speed for the silky water effect? And the shutter speed was super slow

Why do you feel that the chosen ISO would make little difference to this image? ie; ISO 100 or 1600...

Yes, camera limits in this day and age... not fun!

Hi Christina,

I have been reading through this one with interest and will comment based upon your present goal which is to explore the use of Aperture Priority with Auto ISO and based on the water fountain subject.

It's already been covered but you could have reduced your Auto ISO max limit setting down in steps from it's 1600 to lower and you would have seen that your Shutter speed would have increased accordingly which would have given you a more silky effect.

In theory in this mode you could have achieved the same as you could if switching to manual, just a different way of going about things.

As for the silky water affects these generally need something within the image which is sharp in contrast to the water.

Now to throw something else into the learning pot

As you well know Christina there are three main variables on the camera that we have at our disposal to work with, aperture, speed and ISO and you are aware of what each does. One of the things I do these day is that when looking at a subject is to prioritise which of the affects of these variables will be most significant for the image.

Taking your above image I think it's relatively straightforward;

Priority 1 - Speed. You will not get the image and affect you want without 'x' speed.
Priority 2 - Aperture. For determining DoF.
Priority 3 - ISO. It will make little difference to this image if it's taken at ISO100 or ISO1600.

By doing this I find it helps to concentrate me and stop my mind wandering, it does of course get harder determining priorities once you start approaching limits.

Grahame

[Mike Buckley]

But [automated bracketing] is a basic camera function, correct?

Everything is subject to judgement but I consider it an advanced function. You can automatically bracket lots of things including aperture, white balance and Active D-Lighting. Once you learn how to automatically bracket one function, you can pretty much automatically bracket all of the functions.

Aside from that, when you use automated bracketing, you absolute have to keep track of where you are in the cycle of brackets. As an example, you have to know whether you have automated bracketing set to 2 or 3 shots. If you have it set to 3 shots and you only take 2 of them, you can set up your camera to take a completely different scene thinking you are at the first bracket of the next cycle, not realizing that you are actually on the last bracket of the previously unfinished cycle. It's another tedious detail that you have to keep track of and I'm trying to keep things simple for you.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Hi Christina!

Been watching your threads with great interest!

I don’t know about you but I’m totally confused! And I know all this stuff!

Wouldn’t have been my approach, but hey? That’s just me! So I’ll just stay off to the side and continue watching!

While I’m busy not getting involved here I thought I’d just not get involved by putting these up for consideration.

I had these in the archive and they have not been processed other than some sharpening and a quick curve I have set in PS actions. Just quickies from the .dng’s but the point is the effect that different shutter speeds have on moving water.

I shot these with a Singh-Ray Vari-ND filter on my lens and on a tripod (fun hauling all that crap up to 12,000!). While I was up there (this fall occurs at just above 12,000 ft. above sea level) I shot at various shutter speeds with the same aperture/ISO. Shot in manual. Just set my aperture, ISO, and worked the shutter. Evaluative (Canon) metering and let ‘er rip! Here are a couple of each end of the shutter speeds.

Go get ‘em Christina!

f/22, ISO 100, Shutter at 1/15



f22, ISO 100, Shutter at 20 sec.



The shot I chose as my keeper and processed was somewhere in between.

Hi Terry,

Awesome! Info about your settings/singh-Ray Vari-ND filter, plus actual photos!
We see the effects of different shutter speeds and get a clear idea of the results of your "theory & practice".

Please get "involved" more.

Super thanks.

[Brownbear]

Hi Terry,

lol...

Gorgeous images indeed. Thank you for sharing...

The 2nd image has a slower shutter speed of 1/20(same aperture and iso) but the water is silkier which to me means a slower shutter speed, but that is not the case... why is that? ie; faster SS to freeze motion but perhaps I have missed some major point?

Thank you.

Hi Christina!

Been watching your threads with great interest!

I don’t know about you but I’m totally confused! And I know all this stuff!

Wouldn’t have been my approach, but hey? That’s just me! So I’ll just stay off to the side and continue watching!

While I’m busy not getting involved here I thought I’d just not get involved by putting these up for consideration.

I had these in the archive and they have not been processed other than some sharpening and a quick curve I have set in PS actions. Just quickies from the .dng’s but the point is the effect that different shutter speeds have on moving water.

I shot these with a Singh-Ray Vari-ND filter on my lens and on a tripod (fun hauling all that crap up to 12,000!). While I was up there (this fall occurs at just above 12,000 ft. above sea level) I shot at various shutter speeds with the same aperture/ISO. Shot in manual. Just set my aperture, ISO, and worked the shutter. Evaluative (Canon) metering and let ‘er rip! Here are a couple of each end of the shutter speeds.

Go get ‘em Christina!

f/22, ISO 100, Shutter at 1/15



f22, ISO 100, Shutter at 20 sec.



The shot I chose as my keeper and processed was somewhere in between.

[Mike Buckley]

The 2nd image has a slower shutter speed of 1/20(same aperture and iso) but the water is silkier which to me means a slower shutter speed, but that is not the case...

At the risk of unnecessarily adding confusion by jumping into your conversation with Terry, he indicated that the shutter speed is 20 seconds, not 1/20 second. That information hopefully clears up your confusion.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Hi Terry,

lol...

Gorgeous images indeed. Thank you for sharing...

The 2nd image has a slower shutter speed of 1/20(same aperture and iso) but the water is silkier which to me means a slower shutter speed, but that is not the case... why is that? ie; faster SS to freeze motion but perhaps I have missed some major point?

Thank you.

This is one reason why I have requested actual photos.

Here , we read Terry's theory/settings, and we can actually see what he means.

We can also formulate questions based on the photos we see.

Thanks

[Loose Canon]

At the risk of unnecessarily adding confusion by jumping into your conversation with Terry, he indicated that the shutter speed is 20 seconds, not 1/20 second. That information hopefully clears up your confusion.

What he said!

[Brownbear]

Thank you Mike... For a first try I will just try different exposure compensations set by me... Good to know and right now I don't need to know about the other things I can bracket.

Everything is subject to judgement but I consider it an advanced function. You can automatically bracket lots of things including aperture, white balance and Active D-Lighting. Once you learn how to automatically bracket one function, you can pretty much automatically bracket all of the functions.

Aside from that, when you use automated bracketing, you absolute have to keep track of where you are in the cycle of brackets. As an example, you have to know whether you have automated bracketing set to 2 or 3 shots. If you have it set to 3 shots and you only take 2 of them, you can set up your camera to take a completely different scene thinking you are at the first bracket of the next cycle, not realizing that you are actually on the last bracket of the previously unfinished cycle. It's another tedious detail that you have to keep track of and I'm trying to keep things simple for you.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Will test Terry's setting with actual water fountains as soon as I can

Thanks.

[Brownbear]

Thank you.. Somehow I missed that detail. Outstandingly obvious now.

At the risk of unnecessarily adding confusion by jumping into your conversation with Terry, he indicated that the shutter speed is 20 seconds, not 1/20 second. That information hopefully clears up your confusion.