Learning Landscapes - Water Fountain Test Silky Water

[rtbaum]

Oh.....Yes..........We might have forgotten to tell you............you may get muddy and wet

[Brownbear]

Hi Randy,

Yes, indeed I managed to get very muddy and wet.... No problem in the forest but not great once in the city during the walk home. I should get a car but a camera lens is more important to me.

Oh.....Yes..........We might have forgotten to tell you............you may get muddy and wet

[Brownbear]

You're correct. I was just determined to get silky water, and forgot about the blur... When I buy a tripod I will get one that goes down real low and is more adjustable, that should take care of things.

That's dedication. Better yet, it explains your rationale for using a minimum shutter speed of only one second. Even so, I really doubt that that's fast enough even in that situation.

[Brownbear]

Hi Virginia,

I checked out my old wave photos with spray and the best ones were with a SS of 3200, or at least 2500. Here is a wave photo taken with my Sony 200 DSLR

F8 ISO 200 SS 3200

You have my sympathy, Christine. I'm trying to do the exact opposite because I'm often in environments where part of my objective is to get the sense of the spray from breaking waves or when water splats on the rocks at the bottom of a falls. And, I'm getting better at it. My real test will come this winter when we have a really wild winter storm with 50mph or higher winds.

This discussion is incredibly valuable for me because I'm finding I need to do almost exactly the opposite to accomplish my objective.

Thank you.

virginia

[rtbaum]

Hi Randy,

Yes, indeed I managed to get very muddy and wet.... No problem in the forest but not great once in the city during the walk home. I should get a car but a camera lens is more important to me.

Wear that mud like badge of honor!!

Invest in the best tripod/head combo that you can afford.............and then get into macro

[Brownbear]

Hi Randy,

I do have a good marco lens, a Nikon 105 mm... Do you think that will work well for a silky waterfall and sharper background?

Wear that mud like badge of honor!!

Invest in the best tripod/head combo that you can afford.............and then get into macro

[Brownbear]

Hi Terry,

Do you have any tips to share on how to manage a super sharp background like yours combined with the silky water?

Thank you.

Hi Christina!

Been watching your threads with great interest!

I don’t know about you but I’m totally confused! And I know all this stuff!

Wouldn’t have been my approach, but hey? That’s just me! So I’ll just stay off to the side and continue watching!

While I’m busy not getting involved here I thought I’d just not get involved by putting these up for consideration.

I had these in the archive and they have not been processed other than some sharpening and a quick curve I have set in PS actions. Just quickies from the .dng’s but the point is the effect that different shutter speeds have on moving water.

I shot these with a Singh-Ray Vari-ND filter on my lens and on a tripod (fun hauling all that crap up to 12,000!). While I was up there (this fall occurs at just above 12,000 ft. above sea level) I shot at various shutter speeds with the same aperture/ISO. Shot in manual. Just set my aperture, ISO, and worked the shutter. Evaluative (Canon) metering and let ‘er rip! Here are a couple of each end of the shutter speeds.

Go get ‘em Christina!

f/22, ISO 100, Shutter at 1/15



f22, ISO 100, Shutter at 20 sec.



The shot I chose as my keeper and processed was somewhere in between.

[Mike Buckley]

I checked out my old wave photos with spray and the best ones were with a SS of 3200, or at least 2500.

Ahem. That's surely 1/3200 and 1/2500, not 3200 and 2500. Use the discipline of being precise so you don't get confused later on.

This is a perfect example in which we digital photographers have the advantage over film photographers of being able to scrutinize the image at 100% in the camera's LCD immediately after capturing the photo. I did that and determined that 1/200 stopped the action of a splashing wave just fine in this photo.

[rtbaum]

I gotta be careful here....There is no reason that the macro would not work for waterfalls, they are generally "good glass"; that said, most lenses should work pretty well. I would tend to use a zoom like my tamron 17-50


( Interesting note, the triangular opening at the base of the falls is a Copper Culture copper mine.... how they got to it and then back WITH a load of copper, I have not a clue!!!)

I have used my 400mm



If I search my archives, I have probably used my 90mm macro as well.

In my previous post, what was meant is that I anxiously await your forays into macro

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

Yes, indeed and the next time around I will be precise.

Yes, I remember your beautiful wave photo but I never realized it was photographed at such a low shutter speed... That is interesting indeed... I was thinking faster shutter speed to stop action as opposed to a slower shutter speed to create silky blurred water... Makes sense to me (My apologies to Virginia for the error)

Can you explain why and how you were able to stop the action and capture the spray in your wave with such a slow shutter speed? Focusing on the rock prior to the wave ?

Thank you

Ahem. That's surely 1/3200 and 1/2500, not 3200 and 2500. Use the discipline of being precise so you don't get confused later on.

This is a perfect example in which we digital photographers have the advantage over film photographers of being able to scrutinize the image at 100% in the camera's LCD immediately after capturing the photo. I did that and determined that 1/200 stopped the action of a splashing wave just fine in this photo.

[Mike Buckley]

Can you explain why and how you were able to stop the action and capture the spray in your wave with such a slow shutter speed? Focusing on the rock prior to the wave ?

Focusing on the rock is the method that I used but that doesn't have anything to do with stopping the action of the wave. It only has to do with the depth of field. Try to keep in mind the various factors and what they affect.

As for knowing what shutter speed to use, I'm clueless about that stuff. That's because in this day of using digital photography that allows us to inspect the image immediately after we take it, I can be clueless so long as I know those waves are going to continually crash into the rock until I get a decent photo. If I was having to capture a photo of a client's dog or horse jumping a fence, I would have to have my act together and know in advance what shutter speed is required to stop the action.

To be a bit more precise, I seem to remember sensing that I would need a speed of at least 1/200, so I set my Auto ISO to that minimum shutter speed and tried it. I certainly didn't need such a fast shutter speed to hold the camera still because I was using only a 35mm lens. I could tell from my test shots that that shutter speed stopped the action, so I stayed with it.

Keep in mind that I was trying to get the highest splash possible. If I was lucky, that meant that the water was just barely moving. The water rising to or falling from its height is moving faster than the water that has just barely reached its height. So, that may also have had to do with being able to stop the action using a slower shutter speed than you would have otherwise imagined.

Make sense?

[Brownbear]

Thank you. Yes, your explanation makes sense and is helpful, also of interest to Virginia.

Focusing on the rock is the method that I used but that doesn't have anything to do with stopping the action of the wave. It only has to do with the depth of field. Try to keep in mind the various factors and what they affect.

As for knowing what shutter speed to use, I'm clueless about that stuff. That's because in this day of using digital photography that allows us to inspect the image immediately after we take it, I can be clueless so long as I know those waves are going to continually crash into the rock until I get a decent photo. If I was having to capture a photo of a client's dog or horse jumping a fence, I would have to have my act together and know in advance what shutter speed is required to stop the action.

To be a bit more precise, I seem to remember sensing that I would need a speed of at least 1/200, so I set my Auto ISO to that minimum shutter speed and tried it. I certainly didn't need such a fast shutter speed to hold the camera still because I was using only a 35mm lens. I could tell from my test shots that that shutter speed stopped the action, so I stayed with it.

Keep in mind that I was trying to get the highest splash possible. If I was lucky, that meant that the water was just barely moving. The water rising to or falling from its height is moving faster than the water that has just barely reached its height. So, that may also have had to do with being able to stop the action using a slower shutter speed than you would have otherwise imagined.

Make sense?

[Loose Canon]

Hi Terry,

Do you have any tips to share on how to manage a super sharp background like yours combined with the silky water?

Thank you.

Sure Christina!

Solid tripod/head. Period. If you want to work these scenes with shutter and get the effect you are after this is as important as taking your lens cap off!

Mirror lockup. Timer. I either auto focus about a third of the way into the scene or so, or manually focus if its too much of a pain to AF and recompose on a tripod. I might look for a rock in the stream bed to grab focus. One that has no water running over it and use the AF point on the edge of it. Once I have it focused properly, I disable the AF on my lens. Its then in focus and I can change my settings at will and not have to worry about refocusing because I’m not changing the camera position at all on the ‘pod. To make sure I’ll chimp the .jpg on the camera display and zoom in to insane levels to check and then move the view all around the shot to check the DoF and make sure everything I want in focus looks good. I’ve been fooled enough to make sure I do this. Good to go and then I can mess with the filter I had on and the camera settings to get varying shutter effects!

I shot these at a really tight aperture (f/22). Great DoF and forgiving with focus throughout the entire DoF. There are those that might say never to shoot that tight because of “problems”. I say pfffffft! The problems are negligible. I wanted a wide DoF and I darn sure wanted it that day! I didn’t want to hike back up there to re-shoot!

On a tripod, with MLU, and on a timer I just pull the trigger (twice, once to lock the mirror and once to release the shutter on the timer) and the camera will do the rest after I get my hands off it. Meaning everything has time to settle down and create no movement due to the mechanical workings of the camera itself or having my hands working it.

Then, good sharpening in post. I like proper global sharpening (capture and output), but I most always do local sharpening as well. You can hit the rocks in the stream bed and the surround. The sharpen tool in PS is excellent and in Elements that is a good choice if you can’t mask. In my particular flow the local sharpening is about the last thing on the list.

So the local sharpening may change your contrast and of course you want to be careful that you don’t over do it. So its one of the last things. Just create a new layer to do it on in case things do go like you want. If things go horribly wrong, toss the layer and do it again. Also save it as a .psd with layers and if you come back to it tomorrow and don’t like it chunk the layer create the new one and get it happening the way you like.

Pretty much stuff you already know. Just don't let all of this overwhelm you to where you forget stuff thinking about other stuff! On site and you are not dealing with a fast shoot(models, changing light, action, etc.) just breathe, enjoy the scene (most important), think slowly and completely, consider your immediate results and use everything you can to evaluate them, and most of all have fun!

The spot you were in with that water fall looks like an awesome place to be! I bet the sound of that fall was amazing!

[Manfred M]

Christina - I actually like the silky look for flowing water, as long as it fits with the rest of the image. Trying to show motion in a still image is difficult, and I've spent a lot of time staring at moving water trying to understand it and trying to portray the motion. Here are several different shots of the same waterfalls taken at different time. In all of them; I am trying to show movement in the water; some are more successful than others:

[Loose Canon]

Sure Christina!

Solid tripod/head. Period. If you want to work these scenes with shutter and get the effect you are after this is as important as taking your lens cap off!

Mirror lockup. Timer. I either auto focus about a third of the way into the scene or so, or manually focus if its too much of a pain to AF and recompose on a tripod. I might look for a rock in the stream bed to grab focus. One that has no water running over it and use the AF point on the edge of it. Once I have it focused properly, I disable the AF on my lens. Its then in focus and I can change my settings at will and not have to worry about refocusing because I’m not changing the camera position at all on the ‘pod. To make sure I’ll chimp the .jpg on the camera display and zoom in to insane levels to check and then move the view all around the shot to check the DoF and make sure everything I want in focus looks good. I’ve been fooled enough to make sure I do this. Good to go and then I can mess with the filter I had on and the camera settings to get varying shutter effects!

I shot these at a really tight aperture (f/22). Great DoF and forgiving with focus throughout the entire DoF. There are those that might say never to shoot that tight because of “problems”. I say pfffffft! The problems are negligible. I wanted a wide DoF and I darn sure wanted it that day! I didn’t want to hike back up there to re-shoot!

On a tripod, with MLU, and on a timer I just pull the trigger (twice, once to lock the mirror and once to release the shutter on the timer) and the camera will do the rest after I get my hands off it. Meaning everything has time to settle down and create no movement due to the mechanical workings of the camera itself or having my hands working it.

Then, good sharpening in post. I like proper global sharpening (capture and output), but I most always do local sharpening as well. You can hit the rocks in the stream bed and the surround. The sharpen tool in PS is excellent and in Elements that is a good choice if you can’t mask. In my particular flow the local sharpening is about the last thing on the list.

So the local sharpening may change your contrast and of course you want to be careful that you don’t over do it. So its one of the last things. Just create a new layer to do it on in case things do go like you want. If things go horribly wrong, toss the layer and do it again. Also save it as a .psd with layers and if you come back to it tomorrow and don’t like it chunk the layer create the new one and get it happening the way you like.

Pretty much stuff you already know. Just don't let all of this overwhelm you to where you forget stuff thinking about other stuff! On site and you are not dealing with a fast shoot(models, changing light, action, etc.) just breathe, enjoy the scene (most important), think slowly and completely, consider your immediate results and use everything you can to evaluate them, and most of all have fun!

The spot you were in with that water fall looks like an awesome place to be! I bet the sound of that fall was amazing!

Dang! I thought I was going to sit this one out!

[pasusan]

Hi Christina - You really did a great job with these last ones!!! I love gorges and waterfalls and visit them whenever I get a chance - which is only on vacations - none near. Get yourself some good boots. You did an amazing job holding the camera as still as you did for your shots. I'd also like to reinforce the consensus that the only way to get a clear shot with super slow shutter speed is with a very steady tripod.

Great work!

[Brownbear]

Randy

Thank you for sharing your images and the information on the lens used. I like the first image. While I was prone I did take note of an entirely different world in the forest waiting to be explored with a macro lens... Mossy logs covered with dew laden mushrooms lit by beams of sunlight... I did take a couple of shots, just for fun... Perhaps after I get a better handle on landscapes I will start exploring macro.

Terry

Thank you for such a wonderful and informative reply. I will be printing it for reference. Tripods, mirror lock up, remote releases, live view switching to manual focus after using auto-focus, are all new to me so I will practice using all these things. Thanks for sharing the post processing tips on sharpening. Good to hear your views on DOF.

The purchase of a quality tripod is going to be my next priority, in fact I might buy one this week. The high-view shots were taken from a suspension bridge and I couldn't get my camera into the position while using the tripod so I had to hold it steady and braced against the bridge, and it needs to go lower, too. And I just noted your comment on hands-off the camera while using a tripod.

It's a gorgeous park, 617 acres of forest truly amazing and a place that I enjoy hiking very much. It takes me less than 30 minutes to walk to the entrance to the park, easy to revisit. So I'm very lucky, indeed. Yes, the sounds of the falls and rushing water is truly amazing. One day I will post another image of the falls in this thread, with a sharper background.

Thanks for not sitting this one out. I'm sure that I will not be the only person printing your reply.

Susan

Thank you. The scenery is beautiful and I love the silky water but I intend to return for another try for sharp focus on the rest of the scene, with a better stable tripod and a remote release.

Virginia

Bryan Peterson's book - Understanding Exposure (great book) has some crashing wave shots on page 35.... A fast one with tons of spray F4 and 1/500 sec and a slow silky one F32 and 1/8 sec.

Thank you to everyone for sharing and contributing to this thread.

[Mike Buckley]

taking your lens cap off!

Darn! Now you tell me!

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

The movement of a suspension bridge, depending on the bridge, may be too much to keep everything sharp while using a slow shutter speed.

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

I was the only person on the bridge, but yes that may be the case. I prefer the views from lower down and will try both again once it has been dry for a few days, plus I am going to look for another waterfall easier to access.

Christina,

The movement of a suspension bridge, depending on the bridge, may be too much to keep everything sharp while using a slow shutter speed.