Blurry Pictures

[jcuknz]

Thankyou Colin for bringing me up to date ....
Whatever a newbie who likely has not learnt to hold and use the camera properly I repeat 1/120 is too long by far but I think Joy has got that message from her recent comments. I have taken 1 second exposures handheld from time to time which are possibly easier than 1/25 as Larry Bolch once wrote ... he finds it so. Then there is the 'burst' option ... a short burst can result in the second or third frame being sharper than the first ...I think it was Colin who suggested that wrinkle.

[Stagecoach]

a newbie with a FF camera .... LOL

John,

And why not?

[jcuknz]

John,

And why not?

If attending a school of instruction a reasonable situation but floundering along on their own, even with the best efforts of CiC,
I think a wrong path unless they treat the camera as the expert and use its features to let it do its stuff that they have paid a bomb for and for what we have seen a P&S would have done a better job for them without them suffering from the idea that they have to control the camera to get good results. If somebody is getting good results with a P&S then THAT is the time to think about a camera which widens the field for them* ... becuase the essense of photography is capturing light not operating a machine.** If an APS-C wasn't getting good results then a FF will be unlikely to improve matters.... but if the results were good and the person knows they have large targets then they might get the FF ... otherwise it is just wasting money to no good purpose.

*Which is why I changed from bridge cameras which served me well for around eight years for the larger sensor of MFT so I could use faster than base ISO but without the weight of APS-C let alone and heaven forbid FF
** and I would have to think hard to list all the various types of cameras I have owned or used at work over the years

[ajohnw]

If attending a school of instruction a reasonable situation but floundering along on their own, even with the best efforts of CiC,
I think a wrong path unless they treat the camera as the expert and use its features to let it do its stuff that they have paid a bomb for and for what we have seen a P&S would have done a better job for them without them suffering from the idea that they have to control the camera to get good results. If somebody is getting good results with a P&S then THAT is the time to think about a camera which widens the field for them* ... becuase the essense of photography is capturing light not operating a machine.** If an APS-C wasn't getting good results then a FF will be unlikely to improve matters.... but if the results were good and the person knows they have large targets then they might get the FF ... otherwise it is just wasting money to no good purpose.

*Which is why I changed from bridge cameras which served me well for around eight years for the larger sensor of MFT so I could use faster than base ISO but without the weight of APS-C let alone and heaven forbid FF
** and I would have to think hard to list all the various types of cameras I have owned or used at work over the years

In other words there isn't any reason for a beginner not buying FF if they want even if they have had an APS and not really learned how to use it.. Perhaps LOL wasn't the best way to put that.

John
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[ajohnw]

I have done a lot of practice with my camera. I started with a rebel T3 and grew out of it after about a year and a half. The quality of the images just wasn't there. Here is an image that I feel came out descent. I do understand how to adjust my settings in relation to increasing ISO for a brighter image with having to compromise the clarity. I understand that if the shutter is too high then the image may come out dark because of the time allowed for light enter the lens is short. My original question was simply for some pointers to a learning photographer. Some pictures came out blurry which I now realize is probably due to camera shake. I definitely need to work on the ease of my trigger finger. The other question was why one picture comes out with great exposure and the next consecutive photo would come out way under exposed. (I'm assuming it's due to me possibly zooming in closer to the subject?)I get a lot of usable images, but want to figure out why I experience these issues, (knowing full well that some of them are due to inexperience). In this picture you can see where the gentleman's face and little boy's face are clear while the female's face looks a little blurry? My goal is to be able to take great photos without much waste. I don't want to just point and shoot. I want to be creative, try new things, step outside my box, and make something great. Again, thank you to everyone who contributed to the answering of my questions.

Cameras do not do what you describe when used correctly Joy unless they are faulty. The biggest problem with this shot is that it's under exposed by something like 1/2 stop, probably more but for sensible adjustments that seems about right. The reason it's under exposed is the brightness in the top right corner which is also washed out..

There are 3 aspects to taking a shot like this one is technical - do I want the bright area to be washed out or do I need to compensate the exposure to account for the fact that the bright area is there completely or partially or what ever. To a certain extent the possibilities are limited by the capabilities of the camera and by reduced colour space of the eventual jpg. Plus what you want to do. Hard to imagine when you might want a washed out area but who knows. That would make the rest dark fine, if that's what you want. Which ever way this area is shot PP is likely to be more difficult.

Next comes the creative part. You look though the viewfinder and frame the shot etc.and decide on depth of field you want. Where portraits are concerned you should look carefully at the way people are posed and maybe re arrange them. Eg on this one some pro's would suggest that the lady relaxed her hand. The man's hand might look better resting on the child's leg rather than showing a bit of arm in the corner. Perhaps the bit of knee showing plus the lady's arm has problems, I suspect it does as cropping the bit of knee out would make the arm look rather strange. The man's bit of arm is probably best avoided. In other situations more needs thinking about, distractions in the background - can they be removed by changing the angle the shots is taken at. Camera height comes into it all as well. Upper echelon portrait people would also take a careful look at the person they are shooting and even decide on a focal length purely on what they see. This area is way way more difficult to handle than camera settings what ever is being photographed. With experience and neglecting posing aspects most people would realise that this shot is likely to have problems. Best thing to do if the angle can't be changed to avoid them is move some where else or more PP with some risk in this case of it not working out.

I wonder about PP too after noticing the redness in the man's arm and also I suspect in the little boys top. Does the colour of the clothes match reality? A really difficult area as cameras will see mixed fabrics of the same colour differently than we do and small changes to correct things like this can have a dramatic effect. The fabric aspect means correcting one will have unknown effects on others. The clothes people are wearing can be a real pain especially in groups Not proposing this as a solution but I played with your shot using a package I am interested in and illustrates the point. Even shows green highlights due to light passing through trees. :There is no local retouching on this one. eek: It's over done but you can see there is no shake. On that score I am pretty sure you are missing focus. Colin made some comments on what speeds can be achieved. Helped by remembering to squeeze the trigger rather than pressing it.



John
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[JLarocky]

... a newbie with a FF camera .... LOL
Whatever a newbie who likely has not learnt to hold and use the camera properly I repeat 1/120 is too long by far but I think Joy has got that message from her recent comments.

I am new. That's why I am actively seeking advice. Please don't shut me down by simply saying I'm new and don't know what I am doing. At least I am trying to learn. And So what if I have FF camera.....

[JLarocky]

If an APS-C wasn't getting good results then a FF will be unlikely to improve matters.... but if the results were good and the person knows they have large targets then they might get the FF ... otherwise it is just wasting money to no good purpose.

I never said I started off the bat with this camera. I started with a rebel t3 as stated in previous posts. It wasn't until I actually made money using that camera (and feeling like I could advance) that I then decided to upgrade.

[JLarocky]

John and Colin,

Thank you both so much for your in depth responses. Being able to get feedback like this, that is explained well, is why I join forums. I have my homework list and will "knuckle" down to practice both in the field and in PP.

Good Day

Joy

[Manfred M]

Joy - we were all beginners at one point and had to learn how to use our cameras and other photographic gear.

As with any other tool and skill we have to master both the hard (technical) and soft (in photographiy, this would be the compositional) side. The two are linked to some extent as the technical affects the composition, just as the compositional part means it will effect how you set the camera.

The part you seem to be struggling the most with is the hard, technical side of things; the exposure triangle, selecting the appropriate shutter speed to get a shot without mottion blur, chosing the right aperture setting to getting the parts of the image you want in focus, etc.

I don't know where you live, but in the city where I am, there is a community college with an excellent continuous education program that includes many aspects of photography. My wife in a similar position to where you were; she has great compositional skills, but wasn't totally happy with her results, so she took an introductory DSLR course. Her images improved significantly and she is a lot happier with her work now. If this is something that is available to you, it might be a good route for your to look at.

[praphul]

Hi Joy ,

Wonderful tips u get from above comments. I would say that u should opt this formula that shutter speed = 1/focal length . I.e If u have the focal length as 50mm then u should use a shutter speed of 1\60 or faster than tat.. the slowest speed u use should be 1\60. U can adjust the iso , aperture to get the ev reading to 0. and if u are using a 24-105mm lens then the minimum speed should be 1/125 , in case u need to get sharp pics.

as u r starter i would say u start with P mode then go on gradually to other modes such as av , tv and finally the M ( Master mode - i like it to call that way instead of manual :P )

[ajohnw]

I wouldn't take my comments about about composition to much to heart Joy. Perhaps the knee is the most serious one if some one looks critically. What I was pointing out really is that when shooting the public the photographer needs to take charge if needed and arrange everything. That needs a certain frame of mind. The idea is to make people look good. I don't know what would be the best way to shoot those people there as they are so just used the points I made as examples. The biggest problem is the bright area. I knew some one well who did this sort of work and know what tribulations he went through. He was very expensive at his peak and also very good at it. He couldn't get expensive until he was. Pro's need better than average gear in some ways in case some one who is around has exactly the same camera.

Homework is fine for principles but has it's problems. Take depth of field. This sets a allowable degree of blur into the depth of a subject. Hyperfocal distance points out that the allowable depth is greater after some point than it is before this point, In real terns the allowable blur depends on the final reproduction size of the image and it's viewing distance. Smaller images can have more blur on the sensor than big ones can. When software gets involved the detail level in the photo also come into it. as far as max final image size is concerned.

Practice and observe the results is the answer. I use P mode a lot because it allows quick control of the camera. I'm still deciding what settings to use. Cameras vary. On some I might conclude full ,manual is best as I can add exposure compensation via the meter display in the view finder. AF is another matter. The screens in cameras aren't all that suited to this so AF confirm points shown in the viewfinder become important even if the camera is focused manually.

Might not work out for you but the application I was playing with is rawtherapee. It comes with a half decent manual that does go some way to explaining what all of the settings do. it will do most whole image adjustments people are likely to need and some others as well. Very well presented and completely free. It might make a good learning tool. Packages differ but essentially offer very similar things so what you finally finish up using isn't all that relevant really. My interest is wishing to get a better insight into LAB adjustments - I will probably find the click to restore defaults rather useful . Another which has all sorts of interesting adjustments is Lightzone but I would hesitate to call it a learning tool. There are some decent tutorials though. Rawtherapee assumes that local retouching will be done with the Gimp. Pretty common approach in open source software of this sort. There are others that take the same approach.

John
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[jcuknz]

I am new. That's why I am actively seeking advice. Please don't shut me down by simply saying I'm new and don't know what I am doing. At least I am trying to learn. And So what if I have FF camera.....

My comment was a silly flippant one and I regret and apologise for it .... on the other hand I feel very strongly, very sad after making numerous mistakes in my carear, that for whatever reason and from whatever influences you felt you needed to get a FF to improve your work of the T3 when you are turning in work as seen here. And definitely I am not trying to shut you down and very sorry you are getting that message from my contributions. I made the mistake of addressing my comment to others ignoring that you would read it as well.

ps. since we now know you paid for the FF with money earnt by the T3 then having a FF is not silly as I earlier suggested but a good long term move ... wish you well with that.

[jcuknz]

Joy .... The other question was why one picture comes out with great exposure and the next consecutive photo would come out way under exposed.

I am not sure what is happening here becuase camera fault would cause the problem if nothing else had changed but if the camera angle of view changed [ such as from the 'man and boy' to Man and woman] there is a considerable change in the proportions of light to dark tones in the frame and I would expect the area of brightness top right in 'family group' to cause the camera to compensate by under-exposing and that is one of the things while relying on the camera in an auto mode one needs to be watching for so that one can correct. Another cause might be inadvertant finger problem. I am very reluctant to blame my tool for problems becuase usually I am the problem.

[Colin Southern]

Hi Joy ,

Wonderful tips u get from above comments. I would say that u should opt this formula that shutter speed = 1/focal length . I.e If u have the focal length as 50mm then u should use a shutter speed of 1\60 or faster than tat.. the slowest speed u use should be 1\60. U can adjust the iso , aperture to get the ev reading to 0. and if u are using a 24-105mm lens then the minimum speed should be 1/125 , in case u need to get sharp pics.

The 1/focal length is long-standing traditional advice (and good advice at that), but it DOESN'T necessarily apply when IS / VR lenses are being used to stabilise the camera shake, as was the case here (the 24-105 has IS, and Joy confirmed that it was on).

[Colin Southern]

John and Colin,

Thank you both so much for your in depth responses. Being able to get feedback like this, that is explained well, is why I join forums. I have my homework list and will "knuckle" down to practice both in the field and in PP.

Good Day

Joy

Hi Joy,

Just a quick primer on camera metering:

Unless we over-ride the camera's choice of shutterspeed / aperture / ISO, it'll normally expose a scene so that it comes out as if it was a middle gray. So when you shoot into the light (or something white like snow) it will under-expose. So as a "rule of thumb", if you're going to shoot into the light then you need to add EC (Exposure Compensation) if you don't want to have the subjects turn out as silhouettes like this:



Or alternatively, you're going to need to provide fill lighting as I've done here:

[jcuknz]

Since I am looking for settings which reduce the input from myself, in using flash I have my camera set to minus one stop in the flash EV menu which usually gives me a result handle-able in editing. Here it is a little on the hot side on my monitor but could be better on yours. My aim is to lighten shadows without it being dreadfully obvious it is a 'flash' shot which has been my aim since I originally started doing 'syncro-sunlight' when the idea started to be posssible way back ....I had to work it out then ... these days with digital the camera seems to handle it quite nicely for me with the minus one stop setting.

Since my monitor is a PITB to adjust I am not sure of what I am posting ... fingers crossed.

[Green Mountain Girl]

Thank You everyone for feed back. I realize that just because I have a sophisticated camera doesn't mean its going to take great photos unless I know how to use it. That's why I posted this thread because I have a lot more I need to learn. Sounds like I just need more practice. Here are some pictures. I always check my photos after every couple shots. With these pictures, the ones before were brighter and I didn't adjust any settings or move locations between images. I know many variables can change from picture to picture but just trying to understand it better.

Hi Joy.

When I purchased my first DSLR, after using a point-and-shoot for several years, it was a steep learning curve. Understanding that I needed to learn about the relationships between the settings, I started out in Manual only. Took a lot of bad pictures, but it helped me to learn. Still have some difficulties with it sometimes, but much better now. Tried Shutter priority, and had some of the same problems you are encountering. Got some feedback, realized that sometimes the camera wants to set it right, but it is beyond the capabilities of the camera and/or lens to compensate. And I don't think I was using auto-ISO, either! Now I mainly use Aperture-priority, but switch to manual for some situations (like macro).

You are heading in the right direction when you realize that you have to explore the basics. Keep studying and practicing and it will all come together for you. Have fun!

Susan

[jcuknz]

I have been meaning to suggest this for several days but it has slipped my memory ... Most digital cameras have a indicator in the middle of the information line underneath the picture in the viewfinder. A series of vertical lines [?] which move from side to oposite side of a centre line/point as the camera thinks you are under or over exposing compared to what its meter is telling it.
Whatever mode you are working in it warns you when you maybe making a bad setting choice in the camera's opinion .... as to if you take notice of this is based on what you are trying to do with the photo and subject matter it contains.

People write about the triangle of shutter/aperture/ISO but if you visited my site you would see a different approach .... that of a playground see-saw illustrating the interplay of shutter and aperture ... as one side goes up the other goes down .... with ISO altering the relativity between the two sides of the see-saw.... the site was written some years back and oriented towards the P&S and bridge user just starting out but the basics of photography apply to all camera users whatever their tool.

[ajohnw]

Since I am looking for settings which reduce the input from myself, in using flash I have my camera set to minus one stop in the flash EV menu which usually gives me a result handle-able in editing. Here it is a little on the hot side on my monitor but could be better on yours. My aim is to lighten shadows without it being dreadfully obvious it is a 'flash' shot which has been my aim since I originally started doing 'syncro-sunlight' when the idea started to be posssible way back ....I had to work it out then ... these days with digital the camera seems to handle it quite nicely for me with the minus one stop setting.

Since my monitor is a PITB to adjust I am not sure of what I am posting ... fingers crossed.

I think you will find your camera will look after syncro sunlight. A record shot my son wanted. In this situation I often use it as I hate blacks that loose detail and shirt collars can be a problem too. Ambient light not good either. E-PL1 but I suspect that Panasonic will have a force flash option. Very early days with the camera I may have used auto if it gave sensible settings. Later I managed to set as I wanted, manual lens and flash for macro shots with auto exposure.

Just a little sharpening in Gimp. I should have tidied up the sign really but left as is. Also removed the white spot on the gown.



John
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[jcuknz]

Yes John I was delighted to find out how clever my camera was, an early bridge camera, in this respect [ if not in every respect ] so i try to avoid putting them wrong.... when I got my first AE[only] movie camera in the fifties/sixties the only wrong exposure came from me thinking I knew better Of course in those days the advice was "It will never work" and people still insist on working in manual [ a masochistic element of the male species? ]... problem is it DOES work and well aas your example better than mine.
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