A question for "professionals"

[Viridian]

Professional meaning you own a photography business and you make income and pay bills and taxes and all that sort of stuff. I have a serious question pertaining my future. I have a huge interest in eventually running a business for photography, I'm only 19 so I'm still in the stage of doing shoots for cheap or free to get a name out there / build a portfolio. I have a few questions actually:

1.) Do you have a second career besides photography, if so, (if you don't mind sharing) what is it?

2.) How long did it take for you to get your business to start making profit?

3.) What kind of photography do you shoot?

4.) How much money have you put into your business in the beginning?

I'm just curious because I want to become a business owner one day, but I'm kind of nervous because I've heard photography is hard to start, and I believe it, so I'm looking into a 2nd career to pay bills and help me live in the future.

Thank you,

-Zach

[GrahamS]

Zach, I recommend that you read all 4 parts of this series of articles: http://digital-photography-school.co...grapher-part-1

[chauncey]

Zach, photography as a career is fiscally a bad move. Consider this as a career http://www.aana.com/ceandeducation/b...s/default.aspx
six figure income in six years of training, and keep photography as a hobby.

[RustBeltRaw]

Zack Arias has some great insights on this question. Insights which have encouraged me to stick with my current job and consider photography highly satisfying supplemental income. Full disclosure - I have only just reached the point where jobs come in regularly. They're sporadic and high-stress, but they're flowing. Note also that I don't consider myself a pro, but I'm just starting to see encouraging signs from my probably-lifelong trek toward that goal.

1] I'm a mechanical engineer.

2] About two years of shooting and six months of low-intensity marketing. I still have a long way to go.

3] Action, portraits, and events. There's little to no money in concerts because they can basically always find someone to shoot them for free, but if you have (most important first) a good portfolio of relevant work, experience, and connections, you can find well-paying work. Blogs frequently need photographers, but in my experience, they're also the most likely to underpay or attempt to screw you over. All agreements in writing, regardless of the client.

4] In total, about $5,500. Two camera bodies (60D and 1D mkIII), five lenses (11-16mm f2.8, 20mm f2.8, 50mm f1.4, 100mm f2.0), three hot shoe flashes and light mods, battery packs, light stands, tripod, extra batteries, polarizers, duct tape.... The list gets lengthy rather fast. Add $1,800 for my computer (which is also used for resource-heavy engineering applications). Again, Zack Arias has a Kelby Training tutorial on professional photography with a $5,000 budget. Haven't seen it, but it looks like it's right up your alley.

Good luck. It's brutal out here.

[William W]

1.) Do you have a second career besides photography, if so, (if you don't mind sharing) what is it?

Yes. I am the one of the Directors of a Company. That company owns the Photography Business. I am an employee of that Company. I first started as a Sole Trader (a Freelance Photographer) and also, for a short period was a in Partnership in a Wedding and Portrait Studio: but forming a Company and becoming an employee of that company was a strategic business choice.

2.) How long did it take for you to get your business to start making profit?

As a freelance photographer, probably about 9 months to a year to pay for all my gear and outgoings, so that would be termed “when I began to make a profit” – but at the time I was student also.

Apropos the Studios (I have built three), from the get go we planned to turn a profit within 24 months and we achieved that, each time.

Remember that I graduated from College with my first Diploma in 1975/1976 and at that time I was working as Freelance Photographer. It was around 1978 I began building the first studio: and I sold the last studio around 2004 and then I went back to working as a contract freelance Photographer: I cannot emphasize strongly enough, that to set up a photography business now, is an entirely different ball game to what I did. You’ll notice that I sold the last studio just around the time most W&P photographers were cutting over to digital: that also was a strategic business choice.

3.) What kind of photography do you shoot?

Portraiture, Models' Portfolios and Weddings were the mainstay.
I only shoot Portraits and Sport for money now. I shoot a lot of sport, pro bono.
We also developed a very lucrative photography service for Real Estate Agents.
And we did small product / adverting work.

4.) How much money have you put into your business in the beginning?

That’s difficult to answer. Perhaps best to give a breakdown as at "today":

To deck out a Small Studio with the capacity for Portraits / Portfolios / small product work and a good Wedding Portrait Kit comprising Cameras, Lenses and Lighting which would be suitable for me, today, I would be looking at about AUS$25,000~$35,000 for the kit and about $60,000~$100,000 to fit out the studio. However, if I were starting I would not build a studio straight up - I would hire one when necessary.

I would need about $25,000~$30,000 for other initial outgoings such as Insurance, Electricity, Computers and Office stuff and a small amount of initial Promotion and Advertising . . . etc.

I would assume owning a Vehicle, which would be transferred to the business - or - if I did not own a car then another $20,000 for a modest car.


WW

[Andrew76]

I do not consider myself a professional. But I meet your criteria, so I'll explain my situation. I registered my photography business with the government out of necessity. Some real estate agent friends asked me to shoot some houses, and learn how to make virtual tours. So I did. But they needed taxable receipts, so, there you go. Since then, I've taken more jobs, including some portrait shots for the real estate agent's websites, business cards, etc. And, most recently I've been hired for a local 'in your community' type magazine to cover events.

1) Yes. I own a separate, unrelated business in a more recreational type industry. This is my bread and butter.

2) I don't make a profit. By the time I pay for fuel, insurance, incidentals, etc, I only find myself slowly chipping away at the initial investment, which I made by transferring all of my assets (camera gear, car, etc), into the company.

3) Right now, only real estate, portraits (not what you think - more like passport type shots for websites), and events. Unfortunately, the stuff I like to shoot doesn't pay, and the boring stuff keeps rolling in. I don't even consider some of the larger real estate gigs I've been getting 'photography', it's more like 'taking pictures, and making sure you meet the deadline'. But there's a check at the end of the day.

4) Surprisingly, my equipment list looks very similar to Lex's, although my second body is a 7D, not a 1D. I have a few extras for the virtual tours, and some software that is specific to that as well. My number for gear seems to be a lot higher than his though, and I'd have to pick it apart to tell you exactly why but I'm around $7,000 - $9,000. Now, as Bill mentioned, there's a car, fuel, insurance (both vehicle, and professional), and a slew of other things on top of that.... Even little things you don't think of - I have to have a police check every six months to keep my job at the magazine (not a huge expense, but another $100 per year), I have to be bonded to be allowed into the houses alone, and so on, and so on....

For me, it's a break even deal. I won't be retiring early from photography, but I'm having some fun along the way. And like Victor keeps pointing out - I think that's what it's all about! I just have another job to pay for 'real life'. Good luck to you - I hope you find your way, keep in mind that what Lex says 'It's tough out there' is truth. With the advent of consumer priced dSLRs, everyone who buys one is capable of advertising themselves as a wedding/professional photographer - and quite a lot of them do.

[Viridian]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm taking everything you guys say into consideration. And I know the photography world is hard, I do a few sessions now and again (newborn, maternity, and random stuff) and they don't come often, and I hardly make money, so I know the struggle. I'm just worried because I'm not too talented at any other trade, and I'm not so book smart, so I don't know what I'm seriously going to do in my life yet.

[shreds]

A question: If you make loads of profit you pay loads of tax!

You need to balance taking enough out of the business to be able to eat and house yourself, plus put a bit by for a rainy day, but the rest can revolve around developing the business. Plough your profits back in, but more than anything else, make the right contacts. Not easy to point you in a direction here, but make sure everyone knows what you do, and look at where the money is. Approach relevant sources with a portfolio. Be persistent, you need to absolutely believe in yourself and be able to take the knock backs. Eventually persistence will pay off. But you need to be absolutely passionate and strive for the best at what you do.

A friend of mine has a son who now is in charge of worldwide distribution for a major international software company. No qualifications and life not going anywhere, until his passion for gaming won him a competition and he got noticed. Offered a brief trial with them and not looked back since. just found the right niche, but there was a lot of 'luck' involved.

Oh and yes, if you can have a second business that will fill the quiet days, so much the better. Whatever that might be.

[William W]

. . . and a slew of other things on top of that.... Even little things you don't think of - I have to have a police check every six months to keep my job at the magazine (not a huge expense, but another $100 per year), I have to be bonded to be allowed into the houses alone, and so on, and so on...

One of the main elements in being in business, is knowing the legislative requirements and probably more importantly keeping up with the changes.

I know for a fact, that many small businesses do not keep up; and it is difficult so to do.

Whilst things don't often go wrong for people who get up each morning and generally do the right thing, it does happen and the law does not generally take ignorance of the law as an excuse for non compliance.

Andrew's comment about the 'police check' made me think of the recent compliance changes (where I work) regarding "Working with Children". It is not a big issue at all for me to be compliant to the new legislation and the cost for the document and to be on the register of clearance is only $16 per year: but it would be quite easy to miss the fact that the legislation recently changed and a new system is now in place and also a new register.

If one parent asked for my NEW clearance check reference number and I couldn't supply it and if then the parent made an official complaint it would be possible (maybe not probable, but possible) for me to incur fines in the many, MANY thousands of dollars.

The point I am making is - for a person setting up a new business down the road from me, they might not even realize that they might need to apply for this particular background check and have a number at the ready to provide to a parent who requests it.

A similar issue of note was when we introduced GST (Goods and Services Tax) and there was a massive change in the Tax Legislation: there was a particular period of time where the government watchdog was most aggressive about non compliance and fines were massive, in some cases: and it was very easy to see that quite a few businesses just simply made mistakes, and those mistakes really did not appear to be on purpose just simply out of ignorance or not understanding the new system to which they had to adhere, frankly many small businesses here still don't understand some of the nuances of their compliance requirements to this day.

I think many people who set up a business "on the side" see themselves as somehow exempt from legislation and compliance matters: that might work for their whole life, but if caught out, or if they are just plain unlucky, it may also cost them all that they own and though I expect very unlikely to eventuate there are on some statutes a custodial sentence listed as a possibility, too.

WW

[Colin Southern]

Hi Zach,

Bill is the "gold standard" to answer your question, but as a studio owner, I'll throw in my 10c worth ...

In fact, I'll start by quoting something I wrote in another thread just a few minutes ago:

Dreaming of a career in Photography - Are You?

I suspect that the problem isn't so much the "Uncle Jack" at a wedding who's using his "professional" camera to take photos of his Neice; anyone who uses a "Uncle Jack" to document their wedding for free probably wouldn't be paying a few thousand dollars for a professional anyway.

I think the problem for the struggling professional photographer is probably two-fold;

1. In a photographic sense, they don't know what they're doing. They are in essence, the "uncle Jacks", who buy a "professional" camera, a flash, and a couple of lenses - post some shots to sites where members say how "cool" the shots are - and "hey presto", they think they're professionals without really having a clue about what they're doing (ie classic lighting styles, manipulating light, shooting in difficult conditions, handling people), and

2. In a business sense, they don't have a clue either (even if they are masters of the camera) (being a superb photographer is - ironically - almost a DISADVANTAGE - in running a photography business).

Often it's a case of "they just don't know how much they don't know". I'm probably a good case-in-point; I think it's fair to say that I understand the technical requirement needed to make a good photo, and having run my own (primarily IT) business for some 25+ years, I've got a pretty good idea of what's required to run a photography business and frankly, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. In my case, augmenting my existing business with some great paying photography and printing is a good thing, but that's a completely different level to needing that work to survive week to week.

In my mind, what I wrote above, is perhaps the key; if someone can augment their existing incomes with photography then great -- they can pick and choose the jobs that pay well and/or interest them. Once they cross over into using photography as a vehicle to pay the mortgage and feed the family then you no longer have the luxury of picking and choosing; at that point one HAS to generate a constant stream of paying jobs.

If you want to be a professional photographer (in the context of "doing it for a living") then in essence, you have two choices:

1. Work as a paid professional for someone else

2. Start your own business

If you (initially?) run with option 1, "all" you need to do is develop your skills to the point where someone will employ you. And that's not necessarily easy -- but the easier of the two options. This option takes time, effort, thought, and discipline. And equipment (although not necessarily a "ball-breaking" amount). My STRONG suggestion is to develop the photographic skill first.

If/When you run with option 2, you're taking things to a whole new level. Being a great photographer bears no co-relation WHAT-SO-EVER to running a successful photography business. Running a successful photography business involves skill in sales, marketing, accounting, compliance ... AND photography. 95% of small business fail in the first 5 years for a reason. Many jump in the deep end ... most sink.

I think that if you read through Bill's post again, you'll note that in essence, it's all about BUSINESS, not PHOTOGRAPHY; that's the key. A mediocre photographer with superb business skills will be very successful; a superb photographer with mediocre business skills will struggle a lot and then probably give up after "burning out" after a few years (and yes, I know - and have been part of - all of these things over the past 30+ years).

TO address your questions more directly ...

1.) Do you have a second career besides photography, if so, (if you don't mind sharing) what is it?

Photography and printing are a part of my business -- a separate income stream

2.) How long did it take for you to get your business to start making profit?

In my case, the photography and printing dove-tailed into an existing business structure, so really hard to say. It would be irrelevant to your situation anyway.

3.) What kind of photography do you shoot?

Landscape, Portraiture, and commercial (with the latter being "whatever they paying customer wants me to!") Last jobs have been a fishing boat after a refit, a boardroom, promotional signs for a real-estate website, art reproduction for an artist, canvas prints for an office (some mine, some customers) if that helps.

4.) How much money have you put into your business in the beginning?

If I added up my equipment (cameras, lenses, flashes, studio strobes, computers, software, studio and equipment), I suspect I'd come to around $100,000.

In summary, study all you can about running a small business (if that's the way you want to go), and work hard on the photography side. I'd strongly recommend popping along to www.kelbytraining.com and watch the lessons by Joe McNally and Jay Maisel to give you an insite into the minds of two superbly successful photographic businessmen.

If you need help with the technical side of photography then here is probably the best place on the net in that the expertise is here -- but just be warned that delivering technically high-quality results involves discipline and "pain"; to help, it's an area we need to be brutally honest in. If you're the kind of person (and I'm not saying that you are -- I don't know you yet) that puts more effort into thinking up excuses than you do learning the craft, then it's going to be a waste of time for everyone.

So tell me one thing, punk; DO YOU FEEL LUCKY TODAY???



Hope this helps!

[William W]

Thank you for you kind comment, Colin.

***

Zach,

Working for a Photographer is very good advice.

Working for ANYONE in ANY related industry is very good advice too. If you really want to learn about Business and Photography, being "in it daily" is an absolutely essential ingredient.

A very long story made short: I got to cover the Victoria (Canada) Commonwealth Games and the Atlanta (USA) Olympic Games because of some contacts that I had made several years previous, when although the Producer didn't need Cinematographer - I took up the opportunity to work as the Sound Recordist for a short feature film . . . there are many morals in that story:

> have a very broad, but allied skills set (and you’d be surprised what “allied to photography” can be)
> be available (if your skills are capable) to do any gig, no matter how small or varied it is
> make good contacts and keep them – that’s the first step to Networking

WW


PS - very cool lighting Colin - I like the kicker light on the farther side of her face; and the eyes are brilliant.

It's the lighting reminiscent of the some of the opening scenes of the early 007 Movies, very nice formulae indeed, that you have used.

[Colin Southern]

Thank you for you kind comment, Colin.

Hopefully you agree with it!!

Working for ANYONE in ANY related industry is very good advice too. If you really want to learn about Business and Photography, being "in it daily" is an absolutely essential ingredient.

Why can't I ever write things this succinctly!

> have a very broad, but allied skills set (and you’d be surprised what “allied to photography” can be)

I often preach this to people.

As a photographer, all I could be paid to do was take photos. Then I added printing -- and all of a sudden people would pay me to photograph AND print. Then I added canvas framing/mounting - and guess what? I could then photograph, print, AND FRAME something. The benefits weren't just linear; each leveraged upon the others (eg when taking a photo I could take printing issues into account). The leverage also turned into a competitive advantage; Photographer "A" may take 2 to 3 weeks to photograph something - get it printed by a printer and then framed by a framer -- I can do the whole lot in sometimes as little as 2 hours ... and that's bankable.

[nimitzbenedicto]

***
Working for a Photographer is very good advice.

Working for ANYONE in ANY related industry is very good advice too. If you really want to learn about Business and Photography, being "in it daily" is an absolutely essential ingredient.

A very long story made short: I got to cover the Victoria (Canada) Commonwealth Games and the Atlanta (USA) Olympic Games because of some contacts that I had made several years previous, when although the Producer didn't need Cinematographer - I took up the opportunity to work as the Sound Recordist for a short feature film . . . there are many morals in that story:

> have a very broad, but allied skills set (and you’d be surprised what “allied to photography” can be)
> be available (if your skills are capable) to do any gig, no matter how small or varied it is
> make good contacts and keep them – that’s the first step to Networking

WW

Most of the semi/pro photogs I met here in L.A. have good "networking/contacts".
They are very technically good, but it's their contacts which give them work/money.

And, yes, many of them work for photogs and/or industries which utilize photography , such as film industry, marketing/ad firms, fashion, products, events, etc.

( luckily, some of them let me tag along when they shoot commercials/ads . I observed it's not the photog who worries about the creative side of the shoot. Their ad shoot is usually done with a team. For instance, Karda***** wants to sell perfume. The marketing/ad firm comes out with a plan to sell it. Included in that plan is the photog/s who takes the shot - according to the concept and/or direction from the creative team. Take note: the editing is done by another guy Not only an image editing expert, but also knows how it should dovetail with the various medium used to display the product. Lots of fun! )

[krispix]

Zach,

Just remember one thing.

The difference between being a Professional Photographer and a 12" Pizza is that you can feed a family of 4 on a 12" Pizza.

It is a very, very, very, very tough and competitive game. Only consider it if you are absolutely convinced you can make a go of it. Second-hand camera shops are full of gear sold by "Pro's" to pay for their next MacDonald's.
My recommendation would be to follow a career path that pays proper money and do your photography as a side-line to begin with. When you've done 50-odd weddings, been up until 3 am trying to make a picture of some wardrobe look exciting for a catalogue, poured engine oil over a cold roast chicken to make it look appetising for a cookery book, made your 20th phonecall to a client to try to squeeze payment for the last shoot. Then you can decide if this is worth a career move.

[Colin Southern]

When you've done 50-odd weddings, been up until 3 am trying to make a picture of some wardrobe look exciting for a catalogue, poured engine oil over a cold roast chicken to make it look appetising for a cookery book, made your 20th phonecall to a client to try to squeeze payment for the last shoot. Then you can decide if this is worth a career move.

And all of that is assuming that you can win those contracts at a profitable price-point in the first place.

[Andrew76]

And all of that is assuming that you can win those contracts at a profitable price-point in the first place.

Well I think that's the crux of the discussion. Here the 'Uncle Jacks', and 'Soccer Moms' come back into play, because they can do the 'same job' for a fraction of the price as someone who has, say $100,000 invested into equipment, and studios, and education, and so on, and so on.

[Colin Southern]

Well I think that's the crux of the discussion. Here the 'Uncle Jacks', and 'Soccer Moms' come back into play, because they can do the 'same job' for a fraction of the price as someone who has, say $100,000 invested into equipment, and studios, and education, and so on, and so on.

I hear what you're saying Andrew, but I'm going to turn it around on you ...

Would an "uncle Jack" or a "soccer Mum" ever take a photo like this?



Not a hope in hell. You know that - I know that - every professional photographer knows that - BUT - a potential customer DOESN'T know that. So when someone rings up and says "how much for some portraits of my kids?" and we reply $400 - and they reply "That's outrageous - uncle Jack will do it for $50", who's fault is it that the pro doesn't get the job? It's not the customer's fault because price is the only thing they understand -- it's the pro's fault for not educating the customer as to why - although his services cost more - they're actually far better value for money. So again, it comes down to business and people skills, not photographic skills.

People will always compare the price being asked and the value they perceive they're getting -- it's not until the latter exceeds the former that you're "in the running". If they think you're too expensive (because they haven't seen the difference) then you're not even going to be in the running.

[rpcrowe]

I had a photo career while I did part-time photography. Sounds strange but, it is true. I was a Navy photographer and did paid photo work on my own time. I was in a good position to start because after the first couple of weddings, I was getting all kinds of referrals for weddings and other kinds of shoots.

However, I did have to deploy and obviously could do no part-time photo work while the ship was at sea.

When I retired, I had a decision to make. I had retrained as a drug and alcohol counselor and worked in treatment for several years before I retired. I opted for this line of work because I had promoted myself out of any job openings in the San Diego area. I was well established here and did not want to leave. I could stay here and stay in the Navy if I were a counselor.

To make a long story short, when I retired, I had to make a decision: get a job as a counselor with lots of opportunities or develop my own studio. I enjoyed counseling and after the Navy obtained a Master's Degree in Rehabilitation counseling. I did no paid photo work while I was in my master's program because there just was not enough time. After, the degree program, I got married. My wife was a full time college professor and I was receiving my retirement from the Navy and also my pay from the counseling job. My wife and I decided that between us we were well off financially and that our time together was too valuable to give up so I only shot occasionally for friends and family.

There were two things that convinced me to forgo a full-time photo career after my Naval service:

1. I was developing degenerative joint disease and I decided that I had better pursue a career that was more sedentary. That was a good choice because I have had both knees replaced and major back surgery in the years after my retirement which would have destroyed me in any business venture. However, as a counselor, I was able to get back to work earlier and also I had sick leave benefits while I was unable to work.

2. I also realized that I am a lousy business person. That was the aspect of my part-time paid photo work that I liked least. It is also an aspect of a photography business that causes many of them to fail. That and being underfunded. I have always believed that you should have enough funds set aside to support yourself for six months to a year without needing to take anything out of your business.

Today I shoot for free, ensuring that my rescue dogs and the rescue dogs of other people have decent pictures to help get them adopted.

[Andrew76]

So when someone rings up and says "how much for some portraits of my kids?" and we reply $400 - and they reply "That's outrageous - uncle Jack will do it for $50", who's fault is it that the pro doesn't get the job? It's not the customer's fault because price is the only thing they understand -- it's the pro's fault for not educating the customer as to why - although his services cost more - they're actually far better value for money. So again, it comes down to business and people skills, not photographic skills.

I'll buy that. I've always agreed with your theory that to succeed, you need a good base in business, and marketing.

You'll have to admit, it is a struggle though. I deal with it on a daily basis, competing with internet sales. I can even be so blunt as to say that "I'm not upset if you purchase it online, BUT, your annual service is going to cost you 30% more than one of my loyal customers, who buys it through me, making your $100 savings nullified over the course of the first two years."

But, as you also mention, quite a few people only see the initial price tag, and the discussion is futile.

Nice portraits, by the way!

[gredawarha]

Zack Arias has some great insights on this question. Insights which have encouraged me to stick with my current job and consider photography highly satisfying supplemental income. Full disclosure - I have only just reached the point where jobs come in regularly. They're sporadic and high-stress, but they're flowing. Note also that I don't consider myself a pro, but I'm just starting to see encouraging signs from my probably-lifelong trek toward that goal.

1] I'm a mechanical engineer.

2] About two years of shooting and six months of low-intensity marketing. I still have a long way to go.

3] Action, portraits, and events. There's little to no money in concerts because they can basically always find someone to shoot them for free, but if you have (most important first) a good portfolio of relevant work, experience, and connections, you can find well-paying work. Blogs frequently need photographers, but in my experience, they're also the most likely to underpay or attempt to screw you over. All agreements in writing, regardless of the client.

4] In total, about $5,500. Two camera bodies (60D and 1D mkIII), five lenses (11-16mm f2.8, 20mm f2.8, 50mm f1.4, 100mm f2.0), three hot shoe flashes and light mods, battery packs, light stands, tripod, extra batteries, polarizers, duct tape.... The list gets lengthy rather fast. Add $1,800 for my computer (which is also used for resource-heavy engineering applications). Again, Zack Arias has a Kelby Training tutorial on professional photography with a $5,000 budget. Haven't seen it, but it looks like it's right up your alley.

Good luck. It's brutal out here.

I cant add anything to the specific question however I am a big Zack Arias fan and he writes/talks a lot about the non photo taking aspect of being a professional photogropher. I think a lot of what he says can also be transfered to other factors in life.

I have watched the $5k challenge and it is very, very good. What I took away was:

1. Obviously the fact that you can get some very good used equipment that gear heads consider "out of date" for low prices.

2. Spend money on travelling and experiences rather than gear.

3. The chapter in the video where he talks about getting into the zone regarding approaching strangers and asking to make their portrait was very interesting.

Have a great day.

Darren