Work flow and Sharpening

[flechtight]

Capture sharpening, Creative sharpening, Output sharpening. I understand the first two, but how will creative sharpening affect the output sharpening? Cause over sharpening in some areas?

Do you save your file after Creative sharpening and then apply the Output sharpening to a separate layer only be turned on when exporting.

When Sharpening for web, do you finish creative sharpening on full size file then re-size and apply the output sharpening?

What are some of your workflow suggestions?

Jon

[Mike Buckley]

My workflow: Output sharpening is on a separate file because the only reason to have that file is to use it for a particular output. So, Capture and Creative sharpening are completed on the one file. Output sharpening is added and a new file to be used for output purposes is saved separately from the first file.

[chauncey]

Mike...can you expand on that somewhat to explain your normal workflow differences between web images and those for print?

[Andrew76]

I do exactly what Mike does. Output sharpening is dependent on what the output image is going to be used for, so I just add it, and save it as a separate file, usually changing the name to indicate what it's for.

[Mike Buckley]

I really can't expand very much because I use Nikon Capture NX2 to do all of my sharpening. The numeric values used by that software are not the same as the values used in Adobe software, which is what most people use.

I can only help by adding that when creating a file for display on the Internet, it's a much smaller file. So, more sharpening is needed for the small file to look as good as the original file that has no output sharpening.

As for printing, I have done so little printing that I don't feel qualified to discuss it in any detail. I can only mention that when the output file prepared for printing looks way overly sharpened on my monitor, it looks fine in print.

[Polar01]

This is how my workflow goes for printed images. I usually use a High Pass Filter for selective sharpening of an image, if printing on a matt or rag stock I set it to "1", if going on a luster or high gloss than "3" and overlay the sharpening layer. Then finish any other adjustment I feel I need. Now I save as, give the file a MF at the beginning of the name. Now I flatten the file or do a "Alt, Crtl, shift, E" and trash the unneeded layer or layers. Then I use Nik output sharpening to sharpen based on the stock, the method of output in this case inkjet printer Epson4900, and the final size of the image. Now I may have to add a curves layer to adjust black and white point because of the paper used. Once that is done I Save as same file name but with a P at the beginning, MF means Master File so PMF means Print Master File. Now I send to printer.
Lets say in a month's time I want to print that image again, I open the PMF for that image, drag the output sharpening layer to the trash and add a new output sharpening layer based on the new print size which now maybe 16"x24" instead of the original size of 12"x18".
Now that my seem a lot, but I have been doing that for a couple of years now.

Cheers: Allan

PS: Forgot, I use the select tool to select the area I want to apply the High Pass filter to, once the area is selected Ctrl J to copy it to a new layer. It is to this layer the High Pass it applied to.
Sorry I did not put that it earlier.

[flechtight]

Great info all thanks for the reply's. Let me add one more question. I use Aperture to manage my files and some editing, but more serious editing taking place in say NIK plug-ins. One plug-in that I became aware of recently I had in my Arsenal was Raw Sharpen by NIK.
If I have an image to work on, Would it be best to use the Raw Sharpen prior to "ANY" other adjustment or Plug-ins. I honestly have not found a sharpen preset on import to Aperture.

Most every Plug-in has a sharpening option available, do you use those options or stay with one program for sharpening.

I really want to get my head wrapped around this now, as I adjust my workflow, with so many options for sharpening along the way.

Jon

[Polar01]

Jon I will now ask you a couple of questions, do you shoot raw, if so where or what program do you use to convert the raw files. Some time ago Aperture from Apple was the go to program, as I said some time ago, if aperture can convert your raw files than I would guess that somewhere there maybe something for some pre-sharpening.
When I pre-sharpen my images it is done in Adobe Raw, just a little it is to correct for the un-sharpening that is done by the AA Filter over the front of the sensor. So using the Nik Raw Sharpen before you convert to whatever format that Aperture put the image in.

Cheers: Allan

PS: yes you will get your head around it

[Andrew76]

I'm unfamiliar with Aperture, but, like Allan, I use ACR to sharpen the image before I touch it in anything else. I have fiddled with the NIK pluggin 'RAW Sharpen', but to me, it seems like it's just adding an extra step, because I still like to do some minor tweaking in ACR, so why not sharpen there too.

That being said, I have used the Output Sharpen pluggin.... Not sure how I like it.

[Colin Southern]

You're possibly over-thinking it a bit

Output sharpening does depend on what it's being output to (and at what size), so yes, save the image before applying output sharpening, but having just said that, a lot of the time the image is simply being prepared for internet display at modest resolutions (say, 1200 x 800px) at which point all you need to do is down-sample from the full resolution image and then apply output sharpening in the region of 0.3px @ around 50% (sometimes higher, sometimes lower).

If you're printing a large print then usually output sharpening won't make a lot of visible difference anyway (I don't worry about it for any of my 1m plus sized prints). So probably the only time when you're going to need to worry about it is when doing small to medium sized prints, in which case a rough rule of thumb is "the smaller the print, the more the sharpening has to be emphasised".

Does that help?

[davidedric]

Perhaps we should have a Workflow Doctor thread

Seriously, and not wishing to hijack anyone's thread, my workflow is very simple, and I wonder if it's too simple.

I do virtually all my editing either in Lightroom or from Lightroom with Nik, and I generally shoot RAW

When I import into LR some sharpening is automatically applied by default. I take this as capture sharpening, and since I assume that LR knows about the camera and how much sharpening is appropriate at this stage, I let it be and I haven't changed the defaults.

During pp I apply whatever creative sharpening I think I need to get the images as I like it.

For output.

I print from Lightroom, set the resolution to what my printer expects (so that it is not having to do any re-sampling), and let LR apply it's default out sharpening for that media type, after whatever re-sizing and re-sampling it has to do. Again, I am trusting LR to use appropriate sharpening algorithms. So I don't create any intermediate files.

For screen, a similar story. Ask LR to apply standard sharpening for screen (I also normally use 80% quality, long side 1200 jpegs) and let it go. Of course I do then have an intermediate.

I am being lazy in allowing LR to choose so much for me, or sensible in that the engineers who designed it know a heck of a lot more than me.

Dave

[bambleweeney]

I am being lazy in allowing LR to choose so much for me, or sensible in that the engineers who designed it know a heck of a lot more than me.
Dave

The engineers probably (I hope) know a lot about image processing algorithms but possibly not much about photography and certainly nothing at all about your images. If LR sharpening works for you then great, I assume it's global sharpening though as I've never used it personally.
For me in Photoshop sharpening is (usually) the last stage. I tend to only sharpen edges so that blank areas don't get noisy and often selectively sharpen an image. The sharpening is applied in a smart object so that on resizing an image I can re-adjust as appropriate. This works for me nearly all of the time and gives me a smaller image that is free of sharpening artifacts and as sharp as I want it.
My workflow is pretty vague though - (ACR into Photoshop as a smart object or two then mess with image) but is suits me. The only common theme is probably using smart objects for sharpening.
Downsizing a PSD is pretty much taken care of with this, for downsizing a JPG I'd use Colin's 0.3px method.
I tried the NIK sharpening tools but has to be said I wasn't that keen on them

[davidedric]

The engineers probably (I hope) know a lot about image processing algorithms but possibly not much about photography

In this case they know rather a lot The LR algorithms were developed by, among others, Bruce Fraser, Jeff Schewe and Martin Evening - a pretty impressive bunch (the same group "Pixel Genius" also developed LR's output sharpener). Jeff goes into it in some detail in his book "The Digital Image", and the four LR sliders are very sophisticated. The main panel does operate globally, but a single sharpness slider is also available in the Graduated Filter, Adjustment Brush and Radial Filter (the last in LR 5). I rarely use Nik Dfine, it just came with the bundle.

I realise that for non-LR users this is gobbledegook, but posted for interest to those who are. I don't have this lot in my head - had to go and re-consult Jeff's book

[flechtight]

Lots info between the two Post, Matt and Mine. Colin had mentioned sharpening in one of my post and I realized I do not know how to properly apply sharpening at any level. So my task this entire weekend is devoted to learning each of the three from as many sources as I can, try my hand at each of the three ( i did find RAW Fine tuning block in Aperture and will see how that compares to NIK and ACR as far as ease of use. I have a long weekend ahead of me, hopefully take a break and go find some frozen waterfalls while the weather is good.

[Colin Southern]

Lots info between the two Post, Matt and Mine. Colin had mentioned sharpening in one of my post and I realized I do not know how to properly apply sharpening at any level. So my task this entire weekend is devoted to learning each of the three from as many sources as I can, try my hand at each of the three ( i did find RAW Fine tuning block in Aperture and will see how that compares to NIK and ACR as far as ease of use. I have a long weekend ahead of me, hopefully take a break and go find some frozen waterfalls while the weather is good.

Here's the 60 second sharpening guide:

Capture sharpening: Apply 0.3px @ 300% on the full resolution image. Do this as soon as you open the image in PS (although dust bunny removal can be easier if you sharpen after removing the spots)

Content sharpening: Try 4px @ 40% on the full resolution image (I use that most of the time).

Output sharpening: Try 0.3px % 50 to 100% after you've down-sampled the image for internet display.

Stop the clock

PS: Sometimes slightly higher amounts are needed for the first two if the image quality isn't as natively sharp as it should be (I only use professional quality lenses, so I need less)

PPS: If you don't do capture sharpening, son't worry -- it has no real-world effect on the final image. It just makes it easier on the eye to work on at 100% magnification.

[davidedric]

If you don't do capture sharpening, son't worry -- it has no real-world effect on the final image. It just makes it easier on the eye to work on at 100% magnification.

Thanks, Colin. I have thought that must be the case, but didn't say it for fear of looking dim

Dave

[Colin Southern]

Thanks, Colin. I have thought that must be the case, but didn't say it for fear of looking dim

Dave

No worries.

I just do it as a matter of course -- it's one click of the mouse then "over and done with".

[flechtight]

PPS: If you don't do capture sharpening, son't worry -- it has no real-world effect on the final image. It just makes it easier on the eye to work on at 100% magnification.

Yes Colin maybe I am over thinking it, but hopefully a light will go off in head soon.


I have finished with capture sharpening and I was really surprised at how soft an image is when no sharpening at all is applied ( I have always opened my Raw images in Aperture and therefore default was applied) Since Capture is subtle I can clearly see what you mean by "helping" with 100% magnification.

Especially those of us who are both near and far sighted and refuse to wear glasses, though I think it may be time to rethink that one

[Macmahon]

If LR sharpening works for you then great, I assume it's global sharpening though as I've never used it personally.

LR capture sharpening is global (not surprising, the AA filter applies to the whole image) and output sharpening is global - just like Colin's .3px method.
But the creative sharpening stage in LR is applied using masks to avoid non-edge areas.
FWIW I too think Schewe and co. did a great job on this.
I've compared LR's sharpening to a number of dedicated sharpening plug ins and stand alone tools and never been convinced that any of them did a better job. YMMV as they say.

Cheers

Tim