Post Processing - How to Know When to Stop?

[suenewbie]

I recently took this photo and have been playing with it in View NX2. Since I'm new to both photography and to post processing, I'd love some input on how to develop an eye for when PP is needed and how much PP is the right amount. I do realize that there's a big element of personal preference in this, but since I'm so new to all of it, some general guidelines would be most welcome...kind of like a 12-year-old girl learning to apply makeup - you want the finished product to look pretty, not gaudy!

Thanks!
Suenewbie

Here are some versions of the same photo, with different amounts of PP done to them. All were taken with my Nikon D3200
Lens VR 55-300mm f/4.5-5.6 @155mm
Aperture Priority @ f/5.6
ISO 100
Shutter 1/800s
Focus Mode AF-S Single Area
Matrix Metering
No Post Processing

First Version - No PP

Dry Dock 12-2013_038 by smolnar18, on Flickr

Second Version - Applied Sharpening (10 - the max)

Dry Dock 12-2013_038 Sharpened 10 by smolnar18, on Flickr

Third Version - Sharpened Plus Pumped up Contrast / Reduced Brightness

Dry Dock 12-2013_038 Sharpened 10 Pumped Contrast Low Brightness by smolnar18, on Flickr

[NorthernFocus]

Sue, unfortunately the simplest answer is the most vague. You process it until it looks like what you want it to. For some that means as nearly as they can remember, for others it means some fictional image in their head that they are trying to portray. In general the histogram should not be pegged out on either side, colors should look natural, and sharpening should not create any fringing around the edges. I'm not on a decent sized monitor and can't really tell how the sharpening looks but the colors look best in the last version from what I can tell. Do you shoot with neutral, standard, or vivid picture controls set in camera?

[IzzieK]

I like the first and last one, Sue...Before I saw the third one I thought the first one without the PP is already OK...so why touched it? The third one actually looks like the first one most...that is on my untrained eyes...

[Andrew76]

+1 to what Dan said. Stop when it's done! Sometimes what you like, may not be what everyone else likes, but if you're not selling your images to National Geographic, or anyone else for that matter, who really cares??

After a while, you'll develop your own style.

[FrankMi]

Welcome to CiC Sue! I don't think I can relate to being a 12 year old girl and applying makeup but I'll try to help regardless.

You'll likely get far too many answers to your question so I would suggest that you deal with only one or two at a time until you understand what is being suggested. Trying too many things at once can lead to frustration.

To compare your images, you can click on one of them and it will open up in Lytebox, usually as a larger display. At the bottom of the display are several controls. You can use the Forward and Back arrows to switch between the images in your thread. When I do that, I see no discernible difference between the first and second image. Perhaps they are really close or possibly, as I have done on occasion, loaded the same image twice. The third image shows in increase in vibrancy. It is not objectionable either way so whichever version you like best is good.

Post processing can be thought of in several ways but the basics include the ability to change things like color, contrast, vibrancy, limited sharpness, brightness, etc. By basic, I am referring to the fact that you use the change on the entire image as a global adjustment. When you become more advanced, you learn how to make the same kind of changes to specific parts of the image as needed.

When you are first starting out in post processing the best advice I can give you is to make subtle changes rather than dramatic ones any your results will usually be more satisfying. You'll quickly figure out if it is overdone and when to stop making changes.

Post your results, ask specific questions about the area you want to improve, get feedback, then reshoot to improve.

[Richard Lundberg]

Lens correction and perspective first if it needs it.Exposure, white balance, contrast, clarity, vibrance. Brightness to taste. I would suggest not doing sharpening in a raw processor. Get Focus Magic. Output sharpening for print is the last step generally and should be applied sparingly in Unsharp Mask. I think auto setting tends to underexpose and raw should be shot a little bit over to capture all the data. You gave all the EXIF except the focus. The depth of field is not getting the bird's head. Focus seems to be on the mass of feathers. Did you have to shoot at 1/800 because it was moving? This is where Focus Magic can be a big help when it's hard to get the right focus. It has two modes, deconvolving lens blur, and removing motion blur. That way you can get better DOF by closing down aperture and slowing shutter speed.

[Brev00]

I would have liked to have read your own thoughts about each image before we started adding our own. What do you think about each image? The most important thing is to develop your own aesthetic judgment. You want to be confident in your own opinion so practice having an opinion and stating it clearly. You can do that with your own images. I like to review pics on Flickr and offer my own perspective on ones that strike me for whatever reason. I try to figure out exactly what I like about the image and express that. In the end, processing pics is an existential crisis. There are endless permutations and combinations. You can try to stay close to what you remember or enhance it to some personally pleasing result. You can even take an image over the top just to see the point at which it is truly awful. Then, pull back. I like to save multiple versions of a single image at times and compare the results later in full screen after some time has gone by. I would like to say which of these is best but I am of the opinion that only you can make that call. The great thing about this particular existential crisis is that there is no right or wrong. Do what you like.

[Colin Southern]

The standing "joke" with photographers is that "no image is ever finished -- they're just abandoned at some point".

After a while you'll learn to spot things that aren't right - and as time goes by, you get better and better at spotting smaller and smaller things until (a) your images look great, and (b) When you try to help others they have no idea what you mean

The type of corrections you do depend on the image type (largely) though; a studio portrait will be incredibly sensitive to colour accuracy and the appearance of "memory colours" (like skin), whereas with a landscape, minor variations in colours are less noticeable, but other things become more important.

Probably the best thing to do is to post images regularly - at a good size - and get the folks here to critique them, so the opinions of others can be added to your own feedback loop.

Are you considering going beyond NX2?

[suenewbie]

Thanks, all! Good and helpful advice that I'll try to put into practice! Richard, you're right, focus was set to auto, as you assumed, and the reason for the 1/800 was because this newbie with a camera isn't quick enough to remember to change settings when moving from flying birds to a stationary one.

Richard, I'll look up Focus Magic. As for "Lens Correction" and "Perspective," I don't have those options in View NX2 - at least not by those names. I have "Straighten" and I do have the other settings you mentioned and will try making them in the order you suggested.

Dan, I've been shooting with "Vivid" color. And I have not yet read up on how to read the histograms and utilize the info they provide - understanding histograms is still on the long list of things I need to learn. Maybe it needs to be moved up in the list, huh?

Anyway, thanks to you all. I so appreciate your help!
Sue

[suenewbie]

Colin, to your question about going beyond View NX2, yes, I've considered it, but since absolutely EVERYthing is new to me (camera, photography, post processing, etc., etc.), I've kinda felt like I should avoid introducing more learning curves for at least a little while. I loved what you said about being "there" when you try to help others and they have no idea what you mean. I certainly don't completely understand all the input I've gotten here today, but I'm confident my understanding will grow with practice and with help from the great folks here. I'll start posting regularly!

Thanks, again,
Sue

[Colin Southern]

Colin, to your question about going beyond View NX2, yes, I've considered it, but since absolutely EVERYthing is new to me (camera, photography, post processing, etc., etc.), I've kinda felt like I should avoid introducing more learning curves for at least a little while. I loved what you said about being "there" when you try to help others and they have no idea what you mean. I certainly don't completely understand all the input I've gotten here today, but I'm confident my understanding will grow with practice and with help from the great folks here. I'll start posting regularly!

Thanks, again,
Sue

No worries Sue,

The reason I asked the question is that Photography is really 2 distinct parts (well 3 actually, but we'll ignore the 3rd for now): The capture of the image, and the processing of the image. Whilst we want to do everything we can to capture an image in a way that gives us the best data to work with, none-the-less, even good images often need good post-processing; it's just a fact of photographic life. So PP is a path you'll need to travel, and in doing that, there are some programs that are good and are used extensively by many (Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Photoshop Lightroom, Adobe Photoshop Elements, and even the free GIMP), and other that aren't used as much (of which I'd put NX2 into). Don't get me wrong, it can produce a great result, but you'll probably find that the support you can get from people with regards to specific techniques for processing will be limited.

All I'm suggesting is just "keep that in mind" as things develop; wouldn't want to see you go toooooooo far down a path that you'll probably abandon at some point. Additionally, Adobe now grant access to their software via subscription so you don't need to stump up $1000+ all in one go for Photoshop anymore; and they have some pretty attractive pricing for LR + PS bundles (Lightroom + Photoshop) at the moment.

[suenewbie]

Hi, Larry,
My thoughts on the adjustments were this:
First, I thought the original photo was fine, as-is (not perfect by a long shot, especially in DOF, but fine). Then someone suggested I try sharpening. When I tried it, I saw very little change, even with the Sharpen slider all the way over to the max of 10. Then, since I am trying to learn more about PP, I decided to try other changes. I found the deeper contrast/colors pleasing, but had concerns that some of the colors on the wood (the yellow) and on the bird's beak (the orange/red) might not be realistic. However, since View NX2 only operates on the whole image instead of specific parts, if I wanted the better colors/contrast, I had to accept those areas that might be a little too vivid. That's the point at which I decided to ask for input.

One last consideration. One of the things I like to do with my bird photos (and this may be sacrilegious talk to real photographers) is also process them in GIMP, where I apply "watercolor" techniques to them. I then have them printed on canvas and hang them in my home. Because of this, I sometimes add even stronger and less realistic color to a photo to make it look more like a painting. That was NOT what I was going for with this specific photo, but it definitely comes into play with some of my photos when I'm doing post-processing.

[DanK]

. And I have not yet read up on how to read the histograms and utilize the info they provide - understanding histograms is still on the long list of things I need to learn. Maybe it needs to be moved up in the list, huh?

Yes. As critically important as postprocessing is, the single most fundamental thing is learning how to control the camera.

I think it might be helpful to break this into two parts.

For the first part, I suggest you turn your question around. Rather than delving into processing an image and asking 'when do I stop?', I would turn it around and ask before you start, 'what changes do I want to make to this image?' Even some of the basics, such as contrast and sharpening adjustments, depend on what you are shooting and what you want. To add a different example to Colin's, I do a lot of macro work, where fine detail is a big part of the image. I routinely boost detail, using either Lightroom's clarity slider or a local contrast adjustment. When I shoot candids of people, that is a nonstarter. Most people don't want all the details of their complexion highlighted in a picture. In fact, in shooting people, I often do the reverse, taking steps to lessen detail. If you can't say what you want to change in an image, you are not likely to be satisfied with your results.

The second part might seem to contradict the first. There are a great many postprocessing tools, but there are some that are standard, used in most images. These include tonality adjustments (light to dark), which take a different form in different programs; contrast adjustment (which is really another tonality adjustment), sharpening, vibrance/saturation, lens profile corrections, etc. My suggestion for a second part is to take a few copies images that you don't mind messing up and playing with these, one at a time, so that you get a feeling for what they do. In the case of sharpening, look at the image both at regular size and magnified. You will gradually get an idea of what the adjustments look like, and then you can start mapping them back to what you want to see in a given image.

One last thought: don't expect people to agree. To some extent, this is just a matter of taste.

[chauncey]

As you progress along this road your post processing vision will change from that of a "true to life" image to something more akin to a "holy $hit/outa sight/wow" representation. You will make these choices as your PP skills improve and your style develops.
A hobby perfectionist will oftentimes PP an image and let it stew in his mind for awhile and go back and make changes here and there...maybe put it on your desktop to see if you can tolerate it.

[dabhand]

Sue - I guess I've been faced with that question so many times - I process with an image of where I want to be in my mind's eye but quite often I get distracted en-route and come up with another idea so I have adopted the approach of developing an image and keeping 'final' versions of each direction I take.

Then I go off and have a coffee, walk the dogs, read a few pages of my book, etc and then come back and look at the various versions - 9 times out of 10 the real answer as to which is better is staring me in the face - and it's not always to keep any of them !

[Downrigger]

This problem is not unique to photography and I suspect any endeavor not composed of irreversible steps towards the end (like, say, plumbing) has it.

- see this and feel OK about not having a precise answer:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel..._b_862304.html

My contributions, as from a newbie to a newbie, are these:
1. plan to stop when you think you're close, and come back later. A fresh look is very helpful.
2. let your PP work educate you as to how you could have made a better image to start with.

[Thlayle]

Sue - and everyone - I just want to say this thread has a lot of great ideas. I know I tend to have the same issue: knowing when to stop, and for me the answer I have come up with has been along the lines of so much of the advice offered here. At the center of it all, for me it often comes down to producing an image that captures not just what I saw at the time but what I felt. If I can capture that 'vision' I am happy with my shot. As an amateur photographer, I have that luxury. And is a luxury I don't know I can ever give up. Maybe that is the ultimate success.

[benm]

some general guidelines would be most welcome...kind of like a 12-year-old girl learning to apply makeup - you want the finished product to look pretty, not gaudy!

Actually, post processing is a lot like makeup. If I notice it (I'm a guy) you used too much.
If you show a photo to someone and they say "great photo", all is good. If they say "great processing", start again.

[Shadowman]

Thanks, all! Good and helpful advice that I'll try to put into practice! Richard, you're right, focus was set to auto, as you assumed, and the reason for the 1/800 was because this newbie with a camera isn't quick enough to remember to change settings when moving from flying birds to a stationary one.

Richard, I'll look up Focus Magic. As for "Lens Correction" and "Perspective," I don't have those options in View NX2 - at least not by those names. I have "Straighten" and I do have the other settings you mentioned and will try making them in the order you suggested.

Dan, I've been shooting with "Vivid" color. And I have not yet read up on how to read the histograms and utilize the info they provide - understanding histograms is still on the long list of things I need to learn. Maybe it needs to be moved up in the list, huh?

Anyway, thanks to you all. I so appreciate your help!
Sue

On the Focus Magic website, there is a comparison of their software against the Unsharp Mask and the results looked favorable for Focus Magic. I have the plug-in and did a comparison and it is image dependent. Images with skintones seem to fair better with Unsharp Mask, as long as the image quality is what the industry calls "reasonably sharp". With slightly out of focus images Focus Magic seems to work better.

[NorthernFocus]

...Dan, I've been shooting with "Vivid" color. And I have not yet read up on how to read the histograms and utilize the info they provide - understanding histograms is still on the long list of things I need to learn. Maybe it needs to be moved up in the list, huh?...

Hey, Sue. It sounds like you are pretty new to digital photography. In which case I'd suggest you forget about the post processing for a bit and concentrate on the basics. Understanding how to use the histogram available on your camera LCD is probably the biggest single learning tool you have for helping learn proper exposure etc. There is a tutorial on histograms here in the CIC tutorials.

Shooting with your camera set to vivid is already doing a good bit of sharpening and color saturation in camera. Since you are using View NX2, you can get a good idea about the differences in the picture controls by changing them after the fact. As you go from neutral to standard to vivid, sharpening, contrast, and color saturation increase. Also make sure you have the histogram window turned on in ViewNX2 and as you make the changes watch how it effects the histogram. You can also fool around with the exposure and contrast sliders independently and watch the changes to the image and to the histogram. That will really help you get a feel for the connection between what shows up on the histogram and what the tones look like in the corresponding image.

The reason I suggest the above is because it will improve your understanding of lighting/colors and that is what photography is all about. Good luck and enjoy the journey